Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Lolek Ltd, Trading as 'The Iona Institute'

1…2627293132

Comments

  • #1402
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    But the party hacks we have now were individually elected - even a popular party can see locally unpopular candidates rejected. A list system means that candidates presented by the party get elected in proportion to their national vote - voters have no veto over list candidates however odious they are.

    Yeah ,I know how it works .

    At least with a list system you have some corrective to candidates within the same constituency vying to outbid each on local isssues , even when they are in the same party.


  • #1403
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,477 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    recedite wrote: »
    Its funny how every defence of the Seanad always ends up citing David Norris. If he dies, there will be no justification at all left for it.

    BTW I'd say he would have a very good chance of election to the Dail. Maybe not at the start of his career, but nowadays he would. But hey, that's democracy for you.

    He'd only have a chance of Dail election because of his long and distinguished Seanad career, you prove my point.
    If you voted in the referendum to retain the Seanad, and then voted in their elections, ask yourself this question; is there a little part of you that likes the idea that you are voting in an election that the other half of the country are not allowed to vote in?

    This idea that the university panels and their electorate know better than everybody else is annoying to, well... everybody else.

    Yes voted to retain it and voted in the TCD panel - but exclusivity is not appealing to me, the national constituency and lack of localism is, as a counterweight (albeit limited) to the Dail.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #1404
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    He'd only have a chance of Dail election because of his long and distinguished Seanad career, you prove my point.
    He strikes me as the kind of guy who would have been "in the public eye" one way or another. If the people thought highly of him, they would vote him in.


  • #1405
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    recedite wrote: »
    All very laudable, but you are barking up the wrong tree. There is no point in any country having two parliaments.

    "Checks and balances" to govt. power are necessary, but the established way of doing this in a republic is to give the President executive power to implement the laws, while the legislature writes the laws. As in France, or the USA where Congress balances the White House.

    As we have chosen against this model, we only have effective checks on the govt. at those rare times when the govt. has insufficient numbers to fully control and sideline the Dail.
    As it happens, that time is now.

    In the abolition referendum we were not offered the options of different trees to bark up. It was a stark choice between the sliver birch of stay or the ash of go.
    Vague promises of a rowan of reform at some point or other in the as yet undefined future were mentioned but as so many many governmental promises of reform turned to sawdust I, personally, wasn't prepared to risk a treehouse legislature on them.


  • #1406
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    The current Seanad is not that, but the university panels are the closest thing to that. David Norris for instance has made a great contribution to national politics but would have little or no chance of ever being elected to the Dail.

    The nation has made a great contribution to David Norris, by paying him a disability pension for 16 years while he was working in the Seanad (and paid there too).

    http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/


  • #1407
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    RainyDay wrote: »
    The nation has made a great contribution to David Norris, by paying him a disability pension for 16 years while he was working in the Seanad (and paid there too). http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/
    I thought it was TCD paying him the disability pension? From an income protection insurance fund?


  • #1408
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Absolam wrote: »
    I thought it was TCD paying him the disability pension? From an income protection insurance fund?

    Where does TCD get funding to pay their insurance premiums from?


  • #1409
    sassyj
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭sassyj


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Where does TCD get funding to pay their insurance premiums from?
    Not sure about Trinity's pension arrangements, but with my pension, fees are taken from my contributions and pay income protection insurance


  • #1410
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,477 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    RainyDay wrote: »
    The nation has made a great contribution to David Norris, by paying him a disability pension for 16 years while he was working in the Seanad (and paid there too).

    http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/

    Not this shi'ite again. Norris paid for an income protection plan out of his salary himself.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Advertisement
  • #1411
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    RainyDay wrote: »
    The nation has made a great contribution to David Norris, by paying him a disability pension for 16 years while he was working in the Seanad (and paid there too).

    http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/

    Pretty underhanded to go after a person due to health issues they have, the chap was perfectly entitled to it.

    You keep on grasping eh


  • #1412
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Not this shi'ite again. Norris paid for an income protection plan out of his salary himself.
    Source please?

    This article quotes his statement as "He was therefore replaced by another member of staff and had been put on a disability pension by the college."

    http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/

    If it was a private income protection policy, the college would have no role in putting him on a disability pension.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Pretty underhanded to go after a person due to health issues they have, the chap was perfectly entitled to it.

    You keep on grasping eh

    Please explain to me how somebody can be medically unfit to lecture, while capable of carrying out the role of Senator?


  • #1413
    Lurkio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Source please?

    This article quotes his statement as "He was therefore replaced by another member of staff and had been put on a disability pension by the college."

    http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-received-disability-allowance-because-of-hepatitis-diagnosis-245877-Oct2011/

    If it was a private income protection policy, the college would have no role in putting him on a disability pension.



    Please explain to me how somebody can be medically unfit to lecture, while capable of carrying out the role of Senator?

    Whats your problem with Norris?


  • #1414
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Whatever about that, what's Norris got to due with David Quinn and his Merry Martyrs?


  • #1415
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Lurkio wrote: »
    Whats your problem with Norris?

    My problem is that he drew a disability pension from Trinity while working in the Senate.


  • #1416
    Lurkio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    RainyDay wrote: »
    My problem is that he drew a disability pension from Trinity while working in the Senate.

    He served 20 years as a lecturer and was entitled to do what he did. This has been gone over in public a number of times, so again - whats your problem with Norris?


  • Advertisement
  • #1417
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Lurkio wrote: »
    He served 20 years as a lecturer and was entitled to do what he did. This has been gone over in public a number of times, so again - whats your problem with Norris?

    What is the relevance of his length of service as a lecturer? It really doesn't matter whether he worked from 3 months or 20 years, there is entitlement to disability built-up based on service.

    Again, my problem is that he took a disability pension from Trinity while working as a Senator. Could you please explain to me how a person can be fit for work as a Senator, but not as a lecturer?


  • #1418
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    RainyDay wrote: »
    What is the relevance of his length of service as a lecturer? It really doesn't matter whether he worked from 3 months or 20 years, there is entitlement to disability built-up based on service.
    Again, my problem is that he took a disability pension from Trinity while working as a Senator. Could you please explain to me how a person can be fit for work as a Senator, but not as a lecturer?
    Perhaps the stress of doing two jobs at the same time (as he had been) after being ill was too great a strain and he decided or was told it was better for his health to cut down to one? That would seem fairly reasonable, especially given his advancing age. I can't imagine the insurance company would have continued paying out if they felt they had grounds not to; insurance companies aren't notoriously easy going.


  • #1419
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    It's laughable how Norris gets a free pass from the liberal intelligentsia. His views on paedophilia, his support for a child rapist...can you imagine the howls of indignation if Iona were up to those tricks.


  • #1420
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    It's laughable how Norris gets a free pass from the liberal intelligentsia. His views on paedophilia, his support for a child rapist...can you imagine the howls of indignation if Iona were up to those tricks.
    LOL. Irony much?

    MrP


  • #1421
    Lurkio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    RainyDay wrote: »
    What is the relevance of his length of service as a lecturer? It really doesn't matter whether he worked from 3 months or 20 years, there is entitlement to disability built-up based on service.


    And after 20 years hes entitled to it.
    RainyDay wrote: »
    Again, my problem is that he took a disability pension from Trinity while working as a Senator. Could you please explain to me how a person can be fit for work as a Senator, but not as a lecturer?

    He was entitled to step down as lecturer and claim the disability. Whats your problem with Norris?


  • Advertisement
  • #1422
    Lurkio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    It's laughable how Norris gets a free pass from the liberal intelligentsia. .............

    Would you like a free pass as well?


  • #1423
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Absolam wrote: »
    Perhaps the stress of doing two jobs at the same time (as he had been) after being ill was too great a strain and he decided or was told it was better for his health to cut down to one? That would seem fairly reasonable, especially given his advancing age. I can't imagine the insurance company would have continued paying out if they felt they had grounds not to; insurance companies aren't notoriously easy going.

    Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but you're unable to continue doing two jobs, then you give up one, well then you stop being paid for it. Hundreds of people face these decisions every year, and don't have the luxury of a publicly funded insurance policy to cushion them. Perhaps he should have given up his Senate post and reverted to his full-time lecturer post?

    And actually, in my limited experience, insurance companies do seem to be easy going on this. I know of one individual who stepped down from a senior multinational post on a disability pension due to back injury, who ended up running a startup a couple of years later, while boasting about the cushion his disability pension continued to provide.
    Lurkio wrote: »
    And after 20 years hes entitled to it.


    He was entitled to step down as lecturer and claim the disability. Whats your problem with Norris?

    Again, what has the 20 years got to do with it? You don't earn entitlement to disability pension with years of service. It is due to medical qualification - either you are fit for work or you're not.

    I don't get how he was fit for work in the Senate, but not in Trinity.


  • #1424
    Lurkio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    RainyDay wrote: »
    S



    Again, what has the 20 years got to do with it? You don't earn entitlement to disability pension with years of service. It is due to medical qualification - either you are fit for work or you're not.

    I don't get how he was fit for work in the Senate, but not in Trinity.

    This was explained during the presidential election. Either look it up or don't. Whats your problem with Norris?


  • #1425
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Lurkio wrote: »
    This was explained during the presidential election. Either look it up or don't. Whats your problem with Norris?

    It clearly wasn't explained how he could have been fit for work in the Senate but not fit for work in Trinity. Would you like to enlighten me?

    And just in case you missed my earlier reply, my problem with Norris is that he drew a disability pension from Trinity while working in the Senate.


  • #1426
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but you're unable to continue doing two jobs, then you give up one, well then you stop being paid for it. Hundreds of people face these decisions every year, and don't have the luxury of a publicly funded insurance policy to cushion them. Perhaps he should have given up his Senate post and reverted to his full-time lecturer post?
    Well, if you're unable to work two jobs, but can work one, you don't stop getting paid disability allowance if you've insurance; like Senator Norris did. Sure hundreds of people don't have insurance, but that doesn't seem a good reason to attack people who have. Income protection insurance is generally paid for by the individual insured, from their salary. Is there a reason to imagine his insurance policy was publicly rather than personally funded?
    RainyDay wrote: »
    And actually, in my limited experience, insurance companies do seem to be easy going on this. I know of one individual who stepped down from a senior multinational post on a disability pension due to back injury, who ended up running a startup a couple of years later, while boasting about the cushion his disability pension continued to provide.
    Do you think the individual was capable of returning to his old job whilst drawing that pension? And can you explain how qualified you are to make that judgement?
    RainyDay wrote: »
    I don't get how he was fit for work in the Senate, but not in Trinity.
    Perhaps the Senate job isn't as demanding as the Trinity job? It certainly couldn't be as demanding as both.


  • #1427
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    MrPudding wrote: »
    LOL. Irony much?

    MrP

    You're talking to a guy who thinks women should "expect to have sex" if they go to a hotel.


  • #1428
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Absolam wrote: »
    Well, if you're unable to work two jobs, but can work one, you don't stop getting paid disability allowance if you've insurance; like Senator Norris did. Sure hundreds of people don't have insurance, but that doesn't seem a good reason to attack people who have. Income protection insurance is generally paid for by the individual insured, from their salary. Is there a reason to imagine his insurance policy was publicly rather than personally funded?
    Yes, there is reason to imagine his insurance policy was publicly funded. The article linked above mentions that 'the college moved him onto disability pension'. If it had been privately funded, the college would have had no role in that decision.
    Absolam wrote: »
    Do you think the individual was capable of returning to his old job whilst drawing that pension? And can you explain how qualified you are to make that judgement?
    I think that if he was capable of running his own startup, he was capable of running a dept in a multi-national. Both jobs are largely similar from an occupational health point of view - largely office-based, some travel for meetings.
    Absolam wrote: »
    Perhaps the Senate job isn't as demanding as the Trinity job? It certainly couldn't be as demanding as both.
    Certainly, it wouldn't be as demanding as both - but he took on two jobs of his own accord, which is way beyond the average expectation. If he is unable to maintain two jobs, it is not (in my opinion) up to a publicly funds to compensate him for that. It's just greedy.


  • #1429
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Yes, there is reason to imagine his insurance policy was publicly funded. The article linked above mentions that 'the college moved him onto disability pension'. If it had been privately funded, the college would have had no role in that decision.


    I think that if he was capable of running his own startup, he was capable of running a dept in a multi-national. Both jobs are largely similar from an occupational health point of view - largely office-based, some travel for meetings.


    Certainly, it wouldn't be as demanding as both - but he took on two jobs of his own accord, which is way beyond the average expectation. If he is unable to maintain two jobs, it is not (in my opinion) up to a publicly funds to compensate him for that. It's just greedy.

    Are you saying the income protection policy in cases of ill health was publicly funded ?

    It is normally part of your overall remuneration package .


  • #1430
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    marienbad wrote: »
    Are you saying the income protection policy in cases of ill health was publicly funded ?

    It is normally part of your overall remuneration package .
    Trinity is publicly funded, so all remuneration from Trinity is coming from public funds.


  • #1431
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Trinity is publicly funded, so all remuneration from Trinity is coming from public funds.

    You must be joking ! A person negotiates his compensation package and you still think how he spends it is bound by your 'public funds ' mantra !

    Does that mean we could insist for instance that he only 'buy Irish ' or that he only holidays at home ?

    What about contractors , cleaners , builders etc as they are also paid out of your public funds should we have a say on how they spend their remuneration ?

    One of the most ridiculous notions I have seen on boards .


  • Advertisement
  • #1432
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Yes, there is reason to imagine his insurance policy was publicly funded. The article linked above mentions that 'the college moved him onto disability pension'. If it had been privately funded, the college would have had no role in that decision.
    Is that the sole reason? Because the fact that the College manages when an employee on a disability allowance moves to being a retired employee on a disability pension would be a necessary function of college management, it actually wouldn't be a reason to imagine that the public ever funded his insurance policy. So.... anything better than that bit of erroneous speculation?
    RainyDay wrote: »
    I think that if he was capable of running his own startup, he was capable of running a dept in a multi-national. Both jobs are largely similar from an occupational health point of view - largely office-based, some travel for meetings.
    How much experience do you have in assessing occupational health matters exactly? And how much access did you have to his health assessments? More or less, would you say, than the assessors at his insurance company?
    RainyDay wrote: »
    Certainly, it wouldn't be as demanding as both - but he took on two jobs of his own accord, which is way beyond the average expectation. If he is unable to maintain two jobs, it is not (in my opinion) up to a publicly funds to compensate him for that. It's just greedy.
    So working two jobs is greedy? Or claiming against the insurance taken out for that very purpose is greedy? Bearing in mind you've not given any evidence at all that public funds compensated him for anything at all yet.
    RainyDay wrote: »
    Trinity is publicly funded, so all remuneration from Trinity is coming from public funds.
    You're not serious are you? Trinity College Dublin is a massive body corporate, it operates the most substantive commercialised research center in Ireland, and according to the Provost almost half of Trinity's funding comes from non government sources (to say nothing of the extent of Trinity Colleges private assets around the world). The fact that Trinity receives public funds is a long way from the notion that all remuneration from Trinity is coming from public funds, never mind that that remuneration is the private funds of the employee once it is remuneration; no public servant, never mind a lecturer, is under any obligation to the public as to how he spends his wages.


  • #1433
    Bristolscale7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Trinity's money and reputation derives from the hoodies they sell to tourists and the Book of Kells.


  • #1434
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    RainyDay wrote: »
    My problem is that he drew a disability pension from Trinity while working in the Senate.
    Lurkio wrote: »
    He served 20 years as a lecturer and was entitled to do what he did. This has been gone over in public a number of times, so again - whats your problem with Norris?
    "Entitled" to do it, yes. "Obliged" to do it, no. Like Deputy Paul Murphy applying for free legal aid, while on a full TD salary plus expenses, and having been on an MEP salary previously too, with separation allowances due to the changeover from one to the other.

    And the Seanad university panel is held up as being somehow noble, or better than the Dail, and indeed the ordinary electorate.


  • #1435
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Absolam wrote: »
    Is that the sole reason? Because the fact that the College manages when an employee on a disability allowance moves to being a retired employee on a disability pension would be a necessary function of college management, it actually wouldn't be a reason to imagine that the public ever funded his insurance policy. So.... anything better than that bit of erroneous speculation?

    There is no error. College management would have absolutely no role in managing a private disability insurance policy, any more than they'd have a role with how he deals with his private car insurance or home insurance. College management moved him onto the disability pension, as detailed in his own statement, so it must have been their policy and not his policy.
    Absolam wrote: »
    How much experience do you have in assessing occupational health matters exactly? And how much access did you have to his health assessments? More or less, would you say, than the assessors at his insurance company?
    If you think that there's a significant difference between running a division in a multi-national of about 40 people and running a startup of about 20 people, both in the same industry, from an occ health point of view, please feel free to explain that difference here.
    Absolam wrote: »
    So working two jobs is greedy? Or claiming against the insurance taken out for that very purpose is greedy? Bearing in mind you've not given any evidence at all that public funds compensated him for anything at all yet.
    Claiming insurance on a publicly funded insurance disability insurance policy while working another full-time job is greedy.
    Absolam wrote: »
    You're not serious are you? Trinity College Dublin is a massive body corporate, it operates the most substantive commercialised research center in Ireland, and according to the Provost almost half of Trinity's funding comes from non government sources (to say nothing of the extent of Trinity Colleges private assets around the world). The fact that Trinity receives public funds is a long way from the notion that all remuneration from Trinity is coming from public funds, never mind that that remuneration is the private funds of the employee once it is remuneration; no public servant, never mind a lecturer, is under any obligation to the public as to how he spends his wages.

    In 2010, the final year at which Norris took his disability pension from Trinity while working full-time in the Senate, about 2/3rd of Trinity's income was publicly funded - either through HEA grants or student fees.

    You're right to say that no public servant has any obligation as to how he spends his wages, but this wasn't his spending - this was college-funded insurance policy that paid him as being unfit for work while he was working full-time in the Senate.

    marienbad wrote: »
    You must be joking ! A person negotiates his compensation package and you still think how he spends it is bound by your 'public funds ' mantra !

    Does that mean we could insist for instance that he only 'buy Irish ' or that he only holidays at home ?

    What about contractors , cleaners , builders etc as they are also paid out of your public funds should we have a say on how they spend their remuneration ?

    One of the most ridiculous notions I have seen on boards .

    This isn't 'his remuneration package'. This is a college funded and college-managed policy that he claimed from, claiming to be unfit for work, while he was working in the Senate. You're right - that is ridiculously greedy, but he did it anyway.


  • #1436
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Has David Norris signed on with Lolek Ltd Trading as "The Iona Institute"? :eek:


  • #1437
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,477 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    RainyDay wrote: »
    There is no error. College management would have absolutely no role in managing a private disability insurance policy

    Wrong. They deduct the premiums from salary and pass them on to the insurer on behalf of the staff. There's no reason why, when it comes to paying out benefits from these policies, the TCD payroll system wouldn't be used as well. It's less hassle for the insurer and allows them to offer the policy at a more competitive premium. The college is 'paying' out the benefits to claimants, but it's the insurer's money they're paying.

    This is common throughout the public sector and I've never heard of a single instance of an income protection plan in the public sector which wasn't paid by the employee out of their own income.

    When Norris reached retirement age he received his retirement pension from TCD in the usual way, the income continuance payments would then cease. He is fully entitled to receive the ICP whether he has other income sources, or not. He is fully entitled to his pension whether he has other income sources, or not.

    Claiming insurance on a publicly funded insurance disability insurance policy while working another full-time job is greedy.

    The insurer was satisfied he was unable to continue his full-time lecturing job; satisfied enough to pay out from their funds.
    The Seanad is a part-time job and doesn't require you to stand up for long periods etc.
    Your use of a health issue, which was used as a smear against him in a particularly nasty political campaign and has been entirely debunked already is pretty poor form imho and raises the question whether some sort of agenda is at work.
    You're right to say that no public servant has any obligation as to how he spends his wages, but this wasn't his spending - this was college-funded insurance policy that paid him as being unfit for work while he was working full-time in the Senate.

    I am confident that you have no basis or evidence for this statement whatsoever. Prove me wrong, if you can, and I will be happy to be corrected.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #1438
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    RainyDay wrote: »
    There is no error. College management would have absolutely no role in managing a private disability insurance policy, any more than they'd have a role with how he deals with his private car insurance or home insurance. College management moved him onto the disability pension, as detailed in his own statement, so it must have been their policy and not his policy.
    I think you might have missed what I said; they'd have a role in moving him from a disability allowance to a disability pension, as they'd be retiring him.
    RainyDay wrote: »
    If you think that there's a significant difference between running a division in a multi-national of about 40 people and running a startup of about 20 people, both in the same industry, from an occ health point of view, please feel free to explain that difference here.
    But I didn't ask you what the difference between them is? I asked you how much experience do you have in assessing occupational health matters exactly? And how much access did you have to his health assessments? More or less, would you say, than the assessors at his insurance company?
    RainyDay wrote: »
    Claiming insurance on a publicly funded insurance disability insurance policy while working another full-time job is greedy.
    JUst because you imagine it's publicly funded? Do you think it's greedy to claim money you're due from insurance you paid for yourself and have been assessed as appropriately eligible for whilst working in another job?
    RainyDay wrote: »
    In 2010, the final year at which Norris took his disability pension from Trinity while working full-time in the Senate, about 2/3rd of Trinity's income was publicly funded - either through HEA grants or student fees.
    So you acknowledge that Trinity isn't simply publicly funded? Good stuff, even if you imagine that Senator Norris went from being a part time Senator to a full time Senator. TCDs own annual report puts their exchequer sourced funding at 63% of core income in 2010 by the way.
    RainyDay wrote: »
    You're right to say that no public servant has any obligation as to how he spends his wages, but this wasn't his spending - this was college-funded insurance policy that paid him as being unfit for work while he was working full-time in the Senate.
    Well let's not forget you've shown no evidence that his insurance was funded by the College; you're speculating, aren't you? And the insurance was paid out based on his having been assessed as unfit to carry out the duties of a specific job, there's no reason to think he was unfit to carry out the duties of the other, is there? Whether or not you think the Senate is a full time job, which it obviously isn't since he had been doing both that job and the job of a lecturer previously, wasn't he?


  • #1439
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    There's no reason why, when it comes to paying out benefits from these policies, the TCD payroll system wouldn't be used as well. It's less hassle for the insurer and allows them to offer the policy at a more competitive premium. The college is 'paying' out the benefits to claimants, but it's the insurer's money they're paying.
    Sorry, but do you understand even the very basics of financial controls and governance. Organisations like TCD and major insurers don't handle each others' money to 'avoid hassle'. This is an absolutely ludicrous suggestion, and would expose either party to charges of money laundering and tax fraud.

    Yes, organisations can make payroll deductions by agreement with employees, usually when there are tax implications of the deduction (union subs or pension payments) and pass on those deductions collectively, but it is a huge leap to suggest that organisations would pay out someone else's money.
    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    The insurer was satisfied he was unable to continue his full-time lecturing job; satisfied enough to pay out from their funds.
    The Seanad is a part-time job and doesn't require you to stand up for long periods etc.
    Doesn't require you to stand up for long periods? Is that really your best shot? Then why the hell didn't he sit down when giving lectures, like many lecturers do, including wheelchair users. Inability to stand for long periods is a long way for a good reason to take a publicly funded disability pension, while working 16 hour days in his other paid employment (http://www.universitytimes.ie/2013/10/interview-david-norris/)
    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Your use of a health issue, which was used as a smear against him in a particularly nasty political campaign and has been entirely debunked already is pretty poor form imho and raises the question whether some sort of agenda is at work.
    This isn't a health issue, this is an ethical issue. If it has been 'entirely debunked' then please point me to the details of that debunking. My only agenda is that I don't like to see people abusing disability pensions. I have great respect for the work that Norris did on gay rights in the past, and I voted for him in Senate elections up to 2011. But I was absolutely disgusted when this issue came out during his Presidential campaign.
    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    I am confident that you have no basis or evidence for this statement whatsoever. Prove me wrong, if you can, and I will be happy to be corrected.
    Tell you what, you prove ME wrong and I will be happy to stand corrected.
    Absolam wrote: »
    I think you might have missed what I said; they'd have a role in moving him from a disability allowance to a disability pension, as they'd be retiring him.
    No, I didn't miss anything, but thanks for proving my point nicely. If this was private policy, the college would have no role in 'retiring him' or moving him onto a pension or anything else. It would an entirely private matter for him to decide what to do, when to do it and to collect his income from the insurance company. But you clearly understand and confirmed that the college had a substantial role in this issue, which confirms their responsibility for the insurance policy.
    Absolam wrote: »
    But I didn't ask you what the difference between them is? I asked you how much experience do you have in assessing occupational health matters exactly? And how much access did you have to his health assessments? More or less, would you say, than the assessors at his insurance company?
    That's right, I asked you what the difference is? If I'm missing something obvious about the difference between two office jobs in the same industry with similar sized teams from an occ health point of view, feel free to point it out to me. If not, you might want to stop digging.
    Absolam wrote: »
    JUst because you imagine it's publicly funded? Do you think it's greedy to claim money you're due from insurance you paid for yourself and have been assessed as appropriately eligible for whilst working in another job?
    I reckon it is greedy to claim on a publicly funded disability policy while working 16 hours days (see link above) in another publicly funded body.
    Absolam wrote: »
    So you acknowledge that Trinity isn't simply publicly funded? Good stuff, even if you imagine that Senator Norris went from being a part time Senator to a full time Senator. TCDs own annual report puts their exchequer sourced funding at 63% of core income in 2010 by the way.
    Yes, that's right - 63%, which is why I said 'about 2/3rds' in my post. And what is all this about part-time Senators and full-time Senators. We don't have different grades of Senators. We just have Senators.


  • #1440
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Advertisement
  • #1441
    Lurkio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Has David Norris signed on with Lolek Ltd Trading as "The Iona Institute"? :eek:

    ....while claiming disability, apparently. He also does nixers cleaning gutters in the summer.


  • #1442
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,477 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Sorry, but do you understand even the very basics of financial controls and governance. Organisations like TCD and major insurers don't handle each others' money to 'avoid hassle'. This is an absolutely ludicrous suggestion, and would expose either party to charges of money laundering and tax fraud.

    Yes, organisations can make payroll deductions by agreement with employees, usually when there are tax implications of the deduction (union subs or pension payments) and pass on those deductions collectively, but it is a huge leap to suggest that organisations would pay out someone else's money.


    You don't understand how payroll systems in the public sector work, especialy for pre-1995 employees who paid (and continue to pay for the rest of their careers) modified PRSI. They have no entitlement to social welfare benefits, so once sick pay is exhausted they have no entitlement to DSP illness benefit, this is why voluntary income continuance plans paid by the employee from their income are common. Once sick pay from the employer is exhausted, all they're entitled to otherwise is 'pension rate of pay' which is based on accumulated years of service. Unless reasonably close to retirement age this will be well below the actual pension payable as it is acturarily reduced by each year before retirement age as well as being based on an incomplete record of pension contributions. This may be well below the social assistance rate so those forced to retire on illness grounds who have not paid into a private plan can be forced to apply to the community welfare officer for assistance. So much for public sector perks, eh?

    To add insult to injury, the employee contribution of the 'modified PRSI' rate is now the same as full class A PRSI, but has no entitlement to benefits at all, and no DSP old age pension.

    Doesn't require you to stand up for long periods? Is that really your best shot?

    Not my decision, take it up with the private sector insurance company involved. The fact remains that being a senator is decidedly a part-time job and less demanding than being a full-time lecturer.

    My only agenda is that I don't like to see people abusing disability pensions.

    That terminology makes it sound like a social welfare benefit and is misleading.
    Tell you what, you prove ME wrong and I will be happy to stand corrected.

    You first, you made an unsubstantiated claim and have not substantiated it, all other posts are in response to yours so the ball very much remains in your court.
    No, I didn't miss anything, but thanks for proving my point nicely. If this was private policy, the college would have no role in 'retiring him' or moving him onto a pension or anything else. It would an entirely private matter for him to decide what to do, when to do it and to collect his income from the insurance company. But you clearly understand and confirmed that the college had a substantial role in this issue, which confirms their responsibility for the insurance policy.

    Yes, he could decide not to claim, so if he fails to be elected he can live on a pittance from TCD - or he could claim the benefits he'd voluntarily paid for. WTF?
    I reckon it is greedy to claim on a publicly funded disability policy while working 16 hours days (see link above) in another publicly funded body.

    Not publicly funded :rolleyes:

    Scrap the cap!



  • #1443
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    RainyDay wrote: »
    No, I didn't miss anything, but thanks for proving my point nicely. If this was private policy, the college would have no role in 'retiring him' or moving him onto a pension or anything else. It would an entirely private matter for him to decide what to do, when to do it and to collect his income from the insurance company. But you clearly understand and confirmed that the college had a substantial role in this issue, which confirms their responsibility for the insurance policy.
    Not really; it is up to the College (and him) if he retires at anything other than a mandatory retirement age. And the College couldn't replace him as a lecturer as long as he was on a disability allowance, but could if he retired.
    "He was unable to return to his academic duties as a result, and had been advised by Trinity College – where he was still on the payroll, though he had been in the Seanad for five years before that – to apply for “permanent disability”. He was therefore replaced by another member of staff and had been put on a disability pension by the college."
    RainyDay wrote: »
    That's right, I asked you what the difference is? If I'm missing something obvious about the difference between two office jobs in the same industry with similar sized teams from an occ health point of view, feel free to point it out to me. If not, you might want to stop digging.
    So, you make a claim about what is feasible from an from an occupational health point of view, but it's my expertise that needs testing? I'm afraid not... establish the credibility of your own statements before you ask someone to prove they're not unreasonable. And if you can't show you've at least some experience in assessing occupational health matters exactly, access to this mans health assessments, and a reason we should believe you're more competent than the assessors at his insurance company, then what I (and you) think is the difference between the roles is irrelevant, because we (ie you) know nothing about his capability.
    RainyDay wrote: »
    I reckon it is greedy to claim on a publicly funded disability policy while working 16 hours days (see link above) in another publicly funded body.
    But do you think it's greedy to claim money you're due from insurance you paid for yourself and have been assessed as appropriately eligible for whilst working in another job? Is you assessment of greed entirely based on your imagining of public funds being involved? Is it not equally greedy to do the same thing with your own money?
    RainyDay wrote: »
    Yes, that's right - 63%, which is why I said 'about 2/3rds' in my post. And what is all this about part-time Senators and full-time Senators. We don't have different grades of Senators. We just have Senators.
    Hmm... may I draw your attention to the word 'core' used in Trinitys statements? So not actually '2/3rd of Trinity's income' as you said. But still; you've acknowledged Trinity is not just paying out of 'public funds' so that's a start.
    We don't have different grades of Senators; from '87 to '94 Senator Norris was both a Senator and a lecturer. So why are you telling us he "took his disability pension from Trinity while working full-time in the Senate"? Did he suddenly go from part time to full time after '94?


  • #1444
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Lurkio wrote: »
    ....while claiming disability, apparently. He also does nixers cleaning gutters in the summer.

    Does he have his own ladders?
    My house needs painting and he might do me a deal - the ol quaire discount like ;)


  • #1445
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,190 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Quinn's latest offering (today's Indo):

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/the-presidency-must-stay-above-the-fray-otherwise-you-rob-it-of-prestige-34710622.html

    A quote I posted on twitter:

    https://twitter.com/pherekydes/status/731085805909872641

    Also: https://twitter.com/pherekydes/status/731086262006910976

    Source


  • #1446
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,509 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    From the people who complain about being silenced.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • Advertisement
  • #1447
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    From the people who complain about being silenced.

    I'm always amazed how Iona can claim they're being silenced while having a platform on our national media, and can be heard spewing their shady US-funded agenda from our TV, Radio and newspapers, have their talking heads automatically represented in any debate because """""balance""""", not to mention social media, yet still have the audacity to shout "Help, we're being oppressed!"


  • #1448
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Everyone knows that if Sabina Higgins had said she was pro-life David Quinn would be nothing but praise for the brave, moral Sabina Higgins who is rightfully using her position to advocate a pro-life message.


  • #1449
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1450
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Offensive is a word I wish we could expunge from our lexicon in these kinds of discussions, the issue isn't that their contributions offend anyone, it's that they're wrong, misleading and arguing to keep a status quo that directly negatively impacts other people in society, be that women, LGBT people, or anyone who does follow the same creed as Iona. Of course can be said that the lies and duplicity spouted by them is indeed offensive, but that's really secondary to what people are reacting to.


  • #1451
    vicwatson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,404 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Does he have his own ladders?
    My house needs painting and he might do me a deal - the ol quaire discount like ;)

    Only does work on houses in North Great Georges street


  • Advertisement
Advertisement