Lurkio wrote: » Whats your problem with Norris?
RainyDay wrote: » My problem is that he drew a disability pension from Trinity while working in the Senate.
Lurkio wrote: » He served 20 years as a lecturer and was entitled to do what he did. This has been gone over in public a number of times, so again - whats your problem with Norris?
RainyDay wrote: » What is the relevance of his length of service as a lecturer? It really doesn't matter whether he worked from 3 months or 20 years, there is entitlement to disability built-up based on service. Again, my problem is that he took a disability pension from Trinity while working as a Senator. Could you please explain to me how a person can be fit for work as a Senator, but not as a lecturer?
frostyjacks wrote: » It's laughable how Norris gets a free pass from the liberal intelligentsia. His views on paedophilia, his support for a child rapist...can you imagine the howls of indignation if Iona were up to those tricks.
RainyDay wrote: » What is the relevance of his length of service as a lecturer? It really doesn't matter whether he worked from 3 months or 20 years, there is entitlement to disability built-up based on service.
RainyDay wrote: » Again, my problem is that he took a disability pension from Trinity while working as a Senator. Could you please explain to me how a person can be fit for work as a Senator, but not as a lecturer?
frostyjacks wrote: » It's laughable how Norris gets a free pass from the liberal intelligentsia. .............
Absolam wrote: » Perhaps the stress of doing two jobs at the same time (as he had been) after being ill was too great a strain and he decided or was told it was better for his health to cut down to one? That would seem fairly reasonable, especially given his advancing age. I can't imagine the insurance company would have continued paying out if they felt they had grounds not to; insurance companies aren't notoriously easy going.
Lurkio wrote: » And after 20 years hes entitled to it. He was entitled to step down as lecturer and claim the disability. Whats your problem with Norris?
RainyDay wrote: » S Again, what has the 20 years got to do with it? You don't earn entitlement to disability pension with years of service. It is due to medical qualification - either you are fit for work or you're not. I don't get how he was fit for work in the Senate, but not in Trinity.
Lurkio wrote: » This was explained during the presidential election. Either look it up or don't. Whats your problem with Norris?
RainyDay wrote: » Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but you're unable to continue doing two jobs, then you give up one, well then you stop being paid for it. Hundreds of people face these decisions every year, and don't have the luxury of a publicly funded insurance policy to cushion them. Perhaps he should have given up his Senate post and reverted to his full-time lecturer post?
RainyDay wrote: » And actually, in my limited experience, insurance companies do seem to be easy going on this. I know of one individual who stepped down from a senior multinational post on a disability pension due to back injury, who ended up running a startup a couple of years later, while boasting about the cushion his disability pension continued to provide.
RainyDay wrote: » I don't get how he was fit for work in the Senate, but not in Trinity.
MrPudding wrote: » LOL. Irony much? MrP
Absolam wrote: » Well, if you're unable to work two jobs, but can work one, you don't stop getting paid disability allowance if you've insurance; like Senator Norris did. Sure hundreds of people don't have insurance, but that doesn't seem a good reason to attack people who have. Income protection insurance is generally paid for by the individual insured, from their salary. Is there a reason to imagine his insurance policy was publicly rather than personally funded?
Absolam wrote: » Do you think the individual was capable of returning to his old job whilst drawing that pension? And can you explain how qualified you are to make that judgement?
Absolam wrote: » Perhaps the Senate job isn't as demanding as the Trinity job? It certainly couldn't be as demanding as both.
RainyDay wrote: » Yes, there is reason to imagine his insurance policy was publicly funded. The article linked above mentions that 'the college moved him onto disability pension'. If it had been privately funded, the college would have had no role in that decision. I think that if he was capable of running his own startup, he was capable of running a dept in a multi-national. Both jobs are largely similar from an occupational health point of view - largely office-based, some travel for meetings. Certainly, it wouldn't be as demanding as both - but he took on two jobs of his own accord, which is way beyond the average expectation. If he is unable to maintain two jobs, it is not (in my opinion) up to a publicly funds to compensate him for that. It's just greedy.
marienbad wrote: » Are you saying the income protection policy in cases of ill health was publicly funded ? It is normally part of your overall remuneration package .
RainyDay wrote: » Trinity is publicly funded, so all remuneration from Trinity is coming from public funds.
RainyDay wrote: » Yes, there is reason to imagine his insurance policy was publicly funded. The article linked above mentions that 'the college moved him onto disability pension'. If it had been privately funded, the college would have had no role in that decision.
RainyDay wrote: » I think that if he was capable of running his own startup, he was capable of running a dept in a multi-national. Both jobs are largely similar from an occupational health point of view - largely office-based, some travel for meetings.
RainyDay wrote: » Certainly, it wouldn't be as demanding as both - but he took on two jobs of his own accord, which is way beyond the average expectation. If he is unable to maintain two jobs, it is not (in my opinion) up to a publicly funds to compensate him for that. It's just greedy.
Absolam wrote: » Is that the sole reason? Because the fact that the College manages when an employee on a disability allowance moves to being a retired employee on a disability pension would be a necessary function of college management, it actually wouldn't be a reason to imagine that the public ever funded his insurance policy. So.... anything better than that bit of erroneous speculation?
Absolam wrote: » How much experience do you have in assessing occupational health matters exactly? And how much access did you have to his health assessments? More or less, would you say, than the assessors at his insurance company?
Absolam wrote: » So working two jobs is greedy? Or claiming against the insurance taken out for that very purpose is greedy? Bearing in mind you've not given any evidence at all that public funds compensated him for anything at all yet.
Absolam wrote: » You're not serious are you? Trinity College Dublin is a massive body corporate, it operates the most substantive commercialised research center in Ireland, and according to the Provost almost half of Trinity's funding comes from non government sources (to say nothing of the extent of Trinity Colleges private assets around the world). The fact that Trinity receives public funds is a long way from the notion that all remuneration from Trinity is coming from public funds, never mind that that remuneration is the private funds of the employee once it is remuneration; no public servant, never mind a lecturer, is under any obligation to the public as to how he spends his wages.
marienbad wrote: » You must be joking ! A person negotiates his compensation package and you still think how he spends it is bound by your 'public funds ' mantra ! Does that mean we could insist for instance that he only 'buy Irish ' or that he only holidays at home ? What about contractors , cleaners , builders etc as they are also paid out of your public funds should we have a say on how they spend their remuneration ? One of the most ridiculous notions I have seen on boards .
RainyDay wrote: » There is no error. College management would have absolutely no role in managing a private disability insurance policy
Claiming insurance on a publicly funded insurance disability insurance policy while working another full-time job is greedy.
You're right to say that no public servant has any obligation as to how he spends his wages, but this wasn't his spending - this was college-funded insurance policy that paid him as being unfit for work while he was working full-time in the Senate.
RainyDay wrote: » There is no error. College management would have absolutely no role in managing a private disability insurance policy, any more than they'd have a role with how he deals with his private car insurance or home insurance. College management moved him onto the disability pension, as detailed in his own statement, so it must have been their policy and not his policy.
RainyDay wrote: » If you think that there's a significant difference between running a division in a multi-national of about 40 people and running a startup of about 20 people, both in the same industry, from an occ health point of view, please feel free to explain that difference here.
RainyDay wrote: » Claiming insurance on a publicly funded insurance disability insurance policy while working another full-time job is greedy.
RainyDay wrote: » In 2010, the final year at which Norris took his disability pension from Trinity while working full-time in the Senate, about 2/3rd of Trinity's income was publicly funded - either through HEA grants or student fees.
RainyDay wrote: » You're right to say that no public servant has any obligation as to how he spends his wages, but this wasn't his spending - this was college-funded insurance policy that paid him as being unfit for work while he was working full-time in the Senate.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » There's no reason why, when it comes to paying out benefits from these policies, the TCD payroll system wouldn't be used as well. It's less hassle for the insurer and allows them to offer the policy at a more competitive premium. The college is 'paying' out the benefits to claimants, but it's the insurer's money they're paying.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » The insurer was satisfied he was unable to continue his full-time lecturing job; satisfied enough to pay out from their funds. The Seanad is a part-time job and doesn't require you to stand up for long periods etc.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » Your use of a health issue, which was used as a smear against him in a particularly nasty political campaign and has been entirely debunked already is pretty poor form imho and raises the question whether some sort of agenda is at work.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » I am confident that you have no basis or evidence for this statement whatsoever. Prove me wrong, if you can, and I will be happy to be corrected.
Absolam wrote: » I think you might have missed what I said; they'd have a role in moving him from a disability allowance to a disability pension, as they'd be retiring him.
Absolam wrote: » But I didn't ask you what the difference between them is? I asked you how much experience do you have in assessing occupational health matters exactly? And how much access did you have to his health assessments? More or less, would you say, than the assessors at his insurance company?
Absolam wrote: » JUst because you imagine it's publicly funded? Do you think it's greedy to claim money you're due from insurance you paid for yourself and have been assessed as appropriately eligible for whilst working in another job?
Absolam wrote: » So you acknowledge that Trinity isn't simply publicly funded? Good stuff, even if you imagine that Senator Norris went from being a part time Senator to a full time Senator. TCDs own annual report puts their exchequer sourced funding at 63% of core income in 2010 by the way.
Bannasidhe wrote: » Has David Norris signed on with Lolek Ltd Trading as "The Iona Institute"? :eek:
RainyDay wrote: » Sorry, but do you understand even the very basics of financial controls and governance. Organisations like TCD and major insurers don't handle each others' money to 'avoid hassle'. This is an absolutely ludicrous suggestion, and would expose either party to charges of money laundering and tax fraud. Yes, organisations can make payroll deductions by agreement with employees, usually when there are tax implications of the deduction (union subs or pension payments) and pass on those deductions collectively, but it is a huge leap to suggest that organisations would pay out someone else's money.
Doesn't require you to stand up for long periods? Is that really your best shot?
My only agenda is that I don't like to see people abusing disability pensions.
Tell you what, you prove ME wrong and I will be happy to stand corrected.
No, I didn't miss anything, but thanks for proving my point nicely. If this was private policy, the college would have no role in 'retiring him' or moving him onto a pension or anything else. It would an entirely private matter for him to decide what to do, when to do it and to collect his income from the insurance company. But you clearly understand and confirmed that the college had a substantial role in this issue, which confirms their responsibility for the insurance policy.
I reckon it is greedy to claim on a publicly funded disability policy while working 16 hours days (see link above) in another publicly funded body.
RainyDay wrote: » No, I didn't miss anything, but thanks for proving my point nicely. If this was private policy, the college would have no role in 'retiring him' or moving him onto a pension or anything else. It would an entirely private matter for him to decide what to do, when to do it and to collect his income from the insurance company. But you clearly understand and confirmed that the college had a substantial role in this issue, which confirms their responsibility for the insurance policy.
RainyDay wrote: » That's right, I asked you what the difference is? If I'm missing something obvious about the difference between two office jobs in the same industry with similar sized teams from an occ health point of view, feel free to point it out to me. If not, you might want to stop digging.
RainyDay wrote: » I reckon it is greedy to claim on a publicly funded disability policy while working 16 hours days (see link above) in another publicly funded body.
RainyDay wrote: » Yes, that's right - 63%, which is why I said 'about 2/3rds' in my post. And what is all this about part-time Senators and full-time Senators. We don't have different grades of Senators. We just have Senators.
