Official Conor McGregor thread (part 2). Read warning in 1st post

RonanP77 · 05-05-2016 01:37PM

Mellor, that's a great summary of what happened on the ground.

It was an act of desperation for Conor to go for the take down, he was finished on his feet and was looking at a K.O. He didn't have his full wits about him at that stage but even if he had Nate was going to get the better of that exchange.

For anyone to say Nates ability on the ground didn't have an impact on the finish is foolish. Against a less skilled grappler Conor could've gotten into a dominant position on the ground and rode out the round.

Mellor · 05-05-2016 01:39PM

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

It was blatantly obvious but as it doesn't suit your argument you pretend it's not relevant as to why he went to ground......he was losing the fight badly.

What are you talking about?

He went for the takedown because be was rocked on the feet.
I've never disputed that. In my last posit I specifically told you I don't disagree with that.

Mellor wrote: »

The exchange on the feet was the catalyst for the finish

Mellor wrote:

The sub win was more over being rocked on the feet than poor grappling skills

Mellor wrote: »

You keep repeating that, and I keep pointing out how I don't disagree with any of that. I'm not sure if I can make it any clearer.

Mellor wrote: »

Im sure he did, it was a desperate move from Conor. Doesn't mean it was irrelevant though.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be tbh.

Diaz had Conor in trouble on the feet, Conor was rocked, and went for a shot out of desperation. I've never suggested any differently, I don't think anybody has. "Why he went to the ground" has never been in question. We are all in agreement there.

The fact you think I'm debating why he shot means you missed the entire point from the start. I've replied to literally every post with "I didn't say that" or "I don't disagree"
Maybe read them or something.

Spudman_20000 · 05-05-2016 01:44PM

I hope they make the rematch, if for no other reason than to draw a line under the debates about the first fight.

Not that it matters, but I think Conor wins the rematch, as I feel Conor has a lot more room for improvement than Nate does.

On a separate topic, I wonder what the take up on 200 tickets have been like? One can only imagine that demand would have been higher with Conor on the card. I haven't seen any reports of tickets being like gold dust etc. Sluggish sales would strengthen Conor's stance somewhat.

I see Lawler is being lined up for 201. Really hope things get sorted and Conor headlines the card, otherwise that will rule Conor out of the NYC card timeline-wise I reckon. Really don't want to have to wait until the tail end of the year to see him fight again.

Depp · 05-05-2016 01:54PM

Ush1 wrote: »

He wasn't only rocked he was also exhausted, that was the main factor. Nate was fine and there was plenty of time left in the round, no way I could see Conor surviving.

100% his cardio was all wrong for the fight and he wasted all his energy throwing that big shot again and again, I'd say if he had more energy i wouldnt think nate wouldve tagged him as easy, conors movement and footwork was nearly gone completely by the time nate started to land big combos. the main reason he lost this fight is complacency, he went in thinking 'this is so easy I dont even have to cut weight' and underestimated nate.

Cathy.C · 05-05-2016 02:39PM

Mellor wrote: »

How is it pointless? You said that the ground played no part in the finish. On that basis, any opponent should of been able to finish. I'm saying they they wouldn't have, therefore Nate's Jiu Jitsu most definitely played a part.

It's pointless as to go to ground when close to being KO'd, against a black belt of the quality of Nate Diaz, meant he hadn't a hope of doing what you suggest he would have succeeded at doing against another fighter.

Conor's takedown was poor, really poor. There was no penetration step, no drive, and his head was down.

Then why did you say his Conor was using solid jiu jitsu

The head being down allowed Diaz to grab a arm-in guillotine.

Exactly.

As Diaz sat back, Conor grabbed the far leg, to pass to that side. That's good awareness of what was happening, a lot of guys are just going to in full guard tapping.

Ah come on. That was just instinct and doesn't anyway justify you saying that Nate was only marginal ahead.

Diaz inverted his guard and trapped the leg.

That was a huge factor imo. That tiny hook dictated the rest rest of the fight. Had he not hooked the leg. Conor passes to side and Nate has to let go, as he's in the bad spot.

Then Conor lifted his hips to defend the choke. I think he planned to leg drag and pass back the other side. (ie the BJ Pass he used vrs Siver). Diaz recognized that his inverted guard wasn't going to hold and moved to take the guillotine from the top. Conor started his roll escape, the one vrs Mendes from UFC 189. He freed himself from the inverted guard and guillotine. But Diaz knew he had lost it and switched to an underhook, it prevented Conor from rolling away. Then he used that underhook to stop Conor turning over in mount (the first time). From there it was punch, punch, back take, slap choke.

LOL

Conor rolled to try and escape? Lifted his hips to defend the choke? Yeah? And? So what! You are speaking about the above as if that was the best McGregor has to offer when it comes to his jiu jitsu. Are you for real with this like? Quite frankly the above is one of the most absurd analysis of the end of the fight that I have read. You go through it blow by blow but you are exaggerating the relevance of each and every move and ignoring the fact that the fighter these moves were being carried out on had zero left. Nate would have more trouble doing what he did to an amateur than he did with Conor in that instance.

I agree that he was rocked on the feet and that was the biggest factor in the finish. That's been my position since the fight. But I just feel that its completely wrong, and pretty dismissive of Diaz' skills, to say the above grappling sequence played no part in the fight/finish.

I am not dismissing Nate's skills at all and I even said that if Conor had put up anything close to a fight on the ground I would give Nate credit for that but he didn't. There was no fight on the ground no matter how much you exaggerate Nate's moves. Conor was a plaything once he went to ground. Even Diaz's own corner has said that once they seen Conor taking down Nate they knew the fight was over.

I am perplexed that anyone could think much skill was needed to get Conor to tap out considering the state he was in when he went to ground and especially considering how easily he was manipulated on the ground. Did you not see the Mendes fight where Conor was on his back and defended against a barrage of elbows to the head and face? No squirming there and there was a fighter who was directing far more force towards him. I think that anyone that would cite the end of that fight as being a good example of Nate Diaz's Jiu Jitsu skills is having a laugh tbh. The fight was over. It was a mere formality at that point given the state Conor was in and the bjj skills Diaz has which is why Nate said that as soon as Conor went for the takedown, they both knew it was a 'wrap'.

Tazzimus · 05-05-2016 02:41PM

Mellor wrote: »

Conor's takedown was poor, really poor. There was no penetration step, no drive, and his head was down.
The head being down allowed Diaz to grab a arm-in guillotine. As Diaz sat back, Conor grabbed the far leg, to pass to that side. That's good awareness of what was happening, a lot of guys are just going to in full guard tapping.
Diaz inverted his guard and trapped the leg.
That was a huge factor imo. That tiny hook dictated the rest rest of the fight. Had he not hooked the leg. Conor passes to side and Nate has to let go, as he's in the bad spot.

Then Conor lifted his hips to defend the choke. I think he planned to leg drag and pass back the other side. (ie the BJ Pass he used vrs Siver). Diaz recognized that his inverted guard wasn't going to hold and moved to take the guillotine from the top. Conor started his roll escape, the one vrs Mendes from UFC 189. He freed himself from the inverted guard and guillotine. But Diaz knew he had lost it and switched to an underhook, it prevented Conor from rolling away. Then he used that underhook to stop Conor turning over in mount (the first time). From there it was punch, punch, back take, slap choke.

I agree that he was rocked on the feet and that was the biggest factor in the finish. That's been my position since the fight. But I just feel that its completely wrong, and pretty dismissive of Diaz' skills, to say the above grappling sequence played no part in the fight/finish.

Pretty much perfectly summed up.

The bit I bolded in particular is where the fight was won imo.
Conor's Jiu Jitsu is very very good, Nates was just better.
Who knows, if Conor hadn't gassed maybe that would have played out different or maybe the exact same thing would happen.

Mellor · 05-05-2016 03:37PM

Cathy.C wrote: »

Then why did you say his Conor was using solid jiu jitsu

The TD was weak, technically it was flawed.
That doesn't mean everything north he did was right. The pass, leg drag, roll. They are the correct moves, it's just a case that Diaz was one step ahead. These are very specific movements. Not something you can accidentally do. A white belt is not going to do that.
That's what I meant when I said they were solid jiu jitsu m. And he didn't deserve his white belt moniker.

Ah come on. That was just instinct and doesn't anyway justify you saying that Nate was only marginal ahead.

Jiujitsu is a game of lots of little moves. The foot hook was a small detail for example. Without it Conor passes and the whole round changes.
To suggest something like that is irrelevant is insane.

.am not dismissing Nate's skills at all and I even said that if Conor had put up anything close to a fight on the ground I would give Nate credit for that but he didn't. There was no fight on the ground no matter how much you exaggerate Nate's moves. Conor was a plaything once he went to ground. Even Diaz's own corner has said that once they seen Conor taking down Nate they knew the fight was over.

It you read a few posts you see I already said (repeatedly) that the sub was more down to being rocked than poor jiu jitsu. I never said anything to suggest it was Conor best.
Nor am I suggesting that that this was an epic back and forth battle. Like the other poster you are making a strawman.
The point of the play by play was not to prove how tough a battle was on the ground. It's that there was a significant amount that happen. To say it played no part in the finish is plain weird imo.

Why does Conor have to put up a close fight on the ground for it to play a part in the finish? Nate is better than most fighters at JiuJitsu. If he wins with JiuJitsu, how is that not relevant to the finish.

Cathy.C · 05-05-2016 03:52PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

Pretty much perfectly summed up.

The bit I bolded in particular is where the fight was won imo.
Conor's Jiu Jitsu is very very good, Nates was just better.

How could that be perfectly summed up

That's why I asked them had they watched the Mendes fight, as they are comparing the roll out from that fight to the going nowhere squirming in the Diaz fight. There was purpose to the former, little to the latter.

@Mellor: I'll reply to the above post later but just to say this for now:

You say you accept that Conor was done on his feet but yet you continue to suggest that Conor lost the fight because Nate's Jiu Jitsu was better. Therefore you do not accept what you're saying you do at all, as your arguments clearly keep implying that you feel if Conor had better ground skills he could have won. That contradicts what you're saying and makes it clear that you do not think he was beaten on his feet at all. Conor had nothing in his tank to apply his bjj to any degree that would have done him justice.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-05-2016 04:02PM

Mellor, you have the patience of a saint!.

Mellor · 05-05-2016 04:08PM

Cathy.C wrote: »

That's why I asked them had they watched the Mendes fight, as they are comparing the roll out from that fight to the going nowhere squirming in the Diaz fight. There was purpose to the former, little to the latter.

Yes I've seen the Mendes fight. I was lucky enough to be there in person.

Conor went for the exact same escape vrs Diaz's guillotine.

You say you accept that Conor was done on his feet but yet you continue to suggest that Conor lost the fight because Nate's Jiu Jitsu was better. Therefore you do not accept what you're saying you do at all, as your arguments clearly keep implying that you feel if Conor had better ground skills he could have won. That contradicts what you're saying and makes it clear that you do not think he was beaten on his feet at all. Conor had nothing in his tank to apply his bjj to any degree that would have done him justice.

Why does it have to be one or the other?
If I think the jiu jitsu played a part, how does that mean I'm suggesting that striking didn't??? That makes no sense.
The striking played a big part. Gassing also played a part. And the jiu jitsu played a part.
What part of that is contradictory?

Actually simple question?
If Nate Diaz was a white belt, would he still have choked Conor out?

Tazzimus · 05-05-2016 04:10PM

Cathy.C wrote: »

How could that be perfectly summed up

That's why I asked them had they watched the Mendes fight, as they are comparing the roll out from that fight to the going nowhere squirming in the Diaz fight. There was purpose to the former, little to the latter.

How was it not?

He described what happened, where it went wrong and where it ended. I'm not sure what you're not understanding about it.

The guillotine escape in both fights was the same, Nate just had the experience on how to stop him getting away, Mendes didn't

RonanP77 · 05-05-2016 04:18PM

Mellor wrote:

Actually simple question? If Nate Diaz was a white belt, would he still have choked Conor out?

I know this one!!!!!!!!!

I'm a white belt and it's a definite NOPE from me.

TitianGerm · 05-05-2016 04:22PM

Mellor wrote: »

Conor's takedown was poor, really poor. There was no penetration step, no drive, and his head was down.
The head being down allowed Diaz to grab a arm-in guillotine. As Diaz sat back, Conor grabbed the far leg, to pass to that side. That's good awareness of what was happening, a lot of guys are just going to in full guard tapping.
Diaz inverted his guard and trapped the leg.

Three small things here that I noticed that might not be apparent to people who don't train BJJ.

1. McGregor left hand/wrist hooks under Diaz knee as he moves to the left. I don't believe McG should feed his hand behind the knee because he allows Diaz to trap the hand for a split second especially with the gloves. To me the hand/fist should be placed on the outside of Diaz knee and push away allowing McG to keep the hand free.

2. McGregor trys to jump his second leg over Diaz hook around 1.09 on the clock after passing the first leg. Here it looks like it's possible to trap Diaz bottom leg with his left leg and slide the right across aswell to pin Diaz before moving to Side Control.

3. When McGregor tries to jump the hook watch Diaz right arm block McGregor hip.

Both fighters did well on the ground and McGregor didn't make any major mistakes bar that horrible attempt at a take down. Still the small mistakes from a lower belt nd extra details a BB will have will always make a difference.

Dyr · 05-05-2016 04:26PM

Aylin Raspy Slipknot wrote: »

Mellor, you have the patience of a saint!.

It's from all that guard pulling probably :pac:

well spoken man · 05-05-2016 06:20PM

I see RDA had a bit of a dig at him on Instagram over his lack of belt tying abilities....

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-05-2016 06:59PM

well spoken man wrote: »

I see RDA had a bit of a dig at him on Instagram over his lack of belt tying abilities....

It's a shocking knot in fairness.

John_D80 · 05-05-2016 07:01PM

well spoken man wrote: »

I see RDA had a bit of a dig at him on Instagram over his lack of belt tying abilities....

Thats about as petty and as desperate as it gets.

Even looking at the pic he posted of Conor, he is sweating fairly heavy and is obviously after a hard session. Not many guys are too concerned about how neat and tidy their gi or belt is at that stage.

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-05-2016 07:07PM

John_D80 wrote: »

Not many guys are too concerned about how neat and tidy their gi or belt is at that stage.

Superlock-Hollywood squareknot variation or get the eff off my mats with yo ugly knots.

John_D80 · 05-05-2016 07:33PM

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Superlock-Hollywood squareknot variation or get the eff off my mats with yo ugly knots.

Hollywood knot does tend to stay tied in fairness!

Lukker- · 05-05-2016 07:38PM

RDA with a white belt knot. Glass house etc. Someone should strip him of that black belt

https://www.instagram.com/p/kI9XRthTnP/

Literally some of the worst trash talk I've ever seen. You didn't tie your belt right

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-05-2016 09:09PM

John_D80 wrote: »

Hollywood knot does tend to stay tied in fairness!

Until some fecker loosens your Gi to use it to control you and you have to undo the beauty and retie!

RebelSoul · 05-05-2016 10:03PM

Cathy.C wrote: »

Conor rolled to try and escape? Lifted his hips to defend the choke? Yeah? And? So what! You are speaking about the above as if that was the best McGregor has to offer when it comes to his jiu jitsu. Are you for real with this like? Quite frankly the above is one of the most absurd analysis of the end of the fight that I have read.

I actually thought it was really good analysis. I learned some things from it that I hadn't picked up on myself. Can you link to a couple of the ones you have read. I'd like to compare them.

Cathy.C wrote: »

Nate would have more trouble doing what he did to an amateur than he did with Conor in that instance.

That's not true.

Cathy.C · 05-05-2016 10:29PM

Aylin Raspy Slipknot wrote: »

Mellor, you have the patience of a saint!.

And so it continues.. more snide remarks aimed at users just trying to take part in a discussion.

No idea what your martial arts attainments are but you sure as hell must have a black belt in passive aggression.

Mellor wrote: »

Conor went for the exact same escape vrs Diaz's guillotine.

In the Mendes fight he wasn't trying that move after gassing out though and being one or two punches away from being KO'd, that's the difference. I'm not suggesting Conor had lost all sense of what moves he should be trying. Making an effort at trying moves he has tried before just proves he wasn't unconscious.

Why does it have to be one or the other?

It doesn't have to be one or the other but fights can be and in this particular fight many people, myself being one, feel that when Conor went to ground the fight was all but over and that it was a mere formality from that point on who would win. You say you don't believe that but yet you also said that Conor lost because he was 'rocked on his feet' rather than 'poor grappling skills' and that's a clear contradiction despite your contention that it isn't.

If I think the jiu jitsu played a part, how does that mean I'm suggesting that striking didn't??? That makes no sense.

You have accused me of strawmanning and yet that is precisely what you are doing now as I have never suggested that you said 'striking didn't play a part' in the win.

Actually simple question?
If Nate Diaz was a white belt, would he still have choked Conor out?

Of course. I doubt there is a fighter in UFC's Top 10 at 170 (or even 155) that wouldn't have easily choked him out in that gassed out state. He wasn't even defending the punches that were raining down on him.

Simple question for you:

Do you think that in that gassed out state, Conor had a realistic chance of winning the fight after he went to ground?

It you read a few posts you see I already said (repeatedly) that the sub was more down to being rocked than poor jiu jitsu. I never said anything to suggest it was Conor best.

You implied it when you said there was a 'marginally difference' though, be fair.

To say it played no part in the finish is plain weird imo.

It was a figure of speech. Of course Nate had to go through the motions, in the same way a golfer has to go through the motions in a play off even if his playing partner has hit the water and they have nicely pitched up on the green. Golfing skills will still need to be utilized to sink the putt but the game is effectively over. I mean, you could make an argument that it's possible to spin the ball around the hole a few times and that the player will still need to hold his putter and strike the ball etc etc but come on, when people say the game is over and that it was one and lost on the fairway, you will know what they mean.

Why does Conor have to put up a close fight on the ground for it to play a part in the finish? Nate is better than most fighters at JiuJitsu. If he wins with JiuJitsu, how is that not relevant to the finish.

Because Conor was toast. That's why. Nate was like a cat with a ball of wool. 99% of those that have given analysis of the fight say the same. Nobody is saying that what happened on the canvas was all that relevant. It's pedantic to point out that if Nate hadn't applied his bjj skills that Conor may have still had a chance. Come on. It's the fact that Nate has such skills that made it a mere formality. He'd want to have had a sudden stroke not to beat Conor when he went to ground.

Axwell · 06-05-2016 03:16AM

Cathy.C wrote: »

It doesn't have to be one or the other but fights can be and in this particular fight many people, myself being one, feel that when Conor went to ground the fight was all but over and that it was a mere formality from that point on who would win.

Cathy.C wrote: »

Because Conor was toast. That's why. Nate was like a cat with a ball of wool. 99% of those that have given analysis of the fight say the same. Nobody is saying that what happened on the canvas was all that relevant. It's pedantic to point out that if Nate hadn't applied his bjj skills that Conor may have still had a chance. Come on. It's the fact that Nate has such skills that made it a mere formality. He'd want to have had a sudden stroke not to beat Conor when he went to ground.

You basically dismiss any of the BJJ sequences on the ground in your observation of the end of the fight which is an odd way to see the outcome.

Your view of the end of the fight is that Conor was gassed and once it went to the ground that it was over, it was just a formality and that he was getting choked, be it by Nate or apparently even a white belt in your answer to Mellor - by the way do you really actually think this because that is just a baffling statement to make. So the BJJ sequences on the ground were irrelevant as far as you are concerned because Conor offered nothing on the ground in his gassed state.

As Mellor pointed out during the sequence Nate trapped the leg, this stopped Conor getting side mount. Its not pedantic in any way to say that had Nate not applied his BJJ skills that Conor would have escaped to the side i.e. not got choked as he did in that sequence - I don't see anyone saying Conor had a chance of winning, so you are adding that bit in yourself. Its a simple case of Conor did the right things to try escape, but Nates BJJ was better and he applied it to stop Conors escape to side and then followed it with a perfect mount and finish. The mount was flawless, the locking of Conors arm in the underhook and the way he locked in the choke - it was perfect, right under the chin no struggling to lock it in. That comes down to how good Nates BJJ was - its not just because Conor was gassed. There is skill and technique involved and to suggest a white belt would have got the same result going to the ground because Conor was gassed is just absurd to be honest. In fact for you to dismiss the analysis of the end of the fight is equally as absurd and if anything shows a lack of understanding of how the sequence played out and how the choke could have been avoided if Conor had managed to get to side mount - what would have happened from there no one knows or is discussing.

Here's a link to Eddie Bravo and Joe Rogan discussing the end of the fight and Eddie comments how beautiful the mount is, the balance involved and how crisp and clean the choke is. That's all recognition on Nates ninja level BJJ, not a reflection on Conor being gassed. No white belt is going to pull that same sequence off and choke Conor..

Would be interested in seeing some links to show these other people that feel the fight was a formality when it went to the ground because 'Conor was gassed' and that would suggest that Nates BJJ was irrelevant at this point that even a white belt would have finished Conor once he tried to shoot.

Mellor · 06-05-2016 04:38AM

Cathy.C wrote: »

In the Mendes fight he wasn't trying that move after gassing out though and being one or two punches away from being KO'd, that's the difference.

A few post ago he was doing something completely different, with no purpose. Now it's because he was gassed.

Do you think that in that gassed out state, Conor had a realistic chance of winning the fight after he went to ground?

As you answer my question I'll do the same.
The odds certainly weren't in his favour. And he movement was slower.
But he had other options, that might had better results. If he went straight to the Dope pass, he would have trapped Diaz bottom leg and kept his hips low preventing the sweep.

Even if Diaz's BJJ was invincible, I still wouldn't say it wasn't a factor.

Of course. I doubt there is a fighter in UFC's Top 10 at 170 (or even 155) that wouldn't have easily choked him out in that gassed out state.

There's not a hope in hell a white belt was going to pull off the inverted guard, the trap the leg, or even the mount transition from the guillotine.
So on that note, I'm out.

Spudman_20000 · 06-05-2016 09:09AM

https://twitter.com/TheNotoriousMMA/status/728381189904568320

RDA will probably have a go at his shoelace knots next.

JustShon · 06-05-2016 09:18AM

I hope McGregor's next fight is soon, don't care who it is at this stage. I just want to move on from talking about his loss to Diaz. The same points keep coming up again and again. It's getting really old.

JustTheOne · 06-05-2016 09:21AM

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/TheNotoriousMMA/status/728381189904568320

RDA will probably have a go at his shoelace knots next.

Seriously get back to fighting noone cares about these runner pics especially reebok ones.

dashoonage · 06-05-2016 12:51PM

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/boxing/7131165/Floyd-Mayweather-and-Conor-McGregor-on-the-verge-of-agreeing-billion-dollar-mega-fight.html

HAhahahahahahahahahahahhaahahah!

hahahahahahhaahahhahahhahah

Subcomandante Marcos · 06-05-2016 01:13PM

Jesus I hope this isn't true... He hasn't a hope in hell.

Official Conor McGregor thread (part 2). **Read warning in 1st post**

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Official Conor McGregor thread (part 2). Read warning in 1st post