Match thread - Ulster v Leinster, RavenSpan, 15:00, Sky Sports 1

Bazzo · 30-04-2016 6:38pm

I personally thought Te'o was one of the few Leinster players to show any teeth in attack today.

Swan Curry · 30-04-2016 6:39pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Or alternatively drop T'eo and play Luke at 12 with Ringrose at 13. The one thing we are certain of is that T'eo isn't even close to being a 12 and is a waste of a backline.

It's ridiculous to act as if there's a strict definition of what a 12 is but if there is one what makes Luke more of a 12 than Te'o? I'm not his biggest fan but the problems with Leinster's backline go far deeper than Te'o's occasional stupid offload

RichieRich89 · 30-04-2016 6:46pm

I thought Clancy was fine.

Leinster's attack is very, very ineffective. Barakat put it best when he said that the shape was predictable. It's a coaching issue, but the fault can't all be laid at Dempsey's door, I don't think, because there's more to attack than just backplay - as all the talk of Connacht's 2-4-2 forwards set-up highlights

The defence isn't a problem in my opinion, despite the concession of 30 points. One try came from an intercept that was made easy to make because of the predictable attack. Another 5-pointer was concedes while down to 14 men, and the penalty try was due to individual misreads and mistakes

Hard to see Leinster doing well in the knock-out stages

stephen_n · 30-04-2016 6:48pm

Swan Curry wrote: »

It's ridiculous to act as if there's a strict definition of what a 12 is but if there is one what makes Luke more of a 12 than Te'o? I'm not his biggest fan but the problems with Leinster's backline go far deeper than Te'o's occasional stupid offload

I would say the fact that Luke will actually pass the ball on more than a fleeting occasion. Luke has a far greater capacity to read a situation and react accordingly. T'eo does better with more space and time, playing at 12 it seems to just be head down and take it into contact.

yosser hughes · 30-04-2016 6:51pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Or alternatively drop T'eo and play Luke at 12 with Ringrose at 13. The one thing we are certain of is that T'eo isn't even close to being a 12 and is a waste of a backline.

Drop Teo? Nah. He's one of our best players and can at least offload and break a tackle.

stephen_n · 30-04-2016 6:54pm

Bazzo wrote: »

I personally thought Te'o was one of the few Leinster players to show any teeth in attack today.

Having teeth in attack and operating as part of a backline are not necessarily the same thing. T'eo will always be an attacking threat but if he starves those outside him of ball, it becomes far to easy to defend against him. 12's need to distribute more. D'Arcy was excellent at using short passes to bring players into the game, even though he was more than capeable of making the hard yards when needed. T'eo as a 12 doesn't demonstrate that for me. He's better at 13 with more space to attack and his offloading game can work better out there too.

irishbucsfan · 30-04-2016 7:03pm

Te'o was good at 12 today and starved no one of ball. There's nothing wrong with him as a 12 especially outside Sexton who is so rangey. This is a criticism not based on today's game.

He may well be better at 13. That's a different discussion. I'd probably put him at 13 but not because he's limiting anything at 12.

stephen_n · 30-04-2016 7:43pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Te'o was good at 12 today and starved no one of ball. There's nothing wrong with him as a 12 especially outside Sexton who is so rangey. This is a criticism not based on today's game.

He may well be better at 13. That's a different discussion. I'd probably put him at 13 but not because he's limiting anything at 12.

No your right it's not based on one game.

The Rape of Lucretia · 30-04-2016 7:50pm

Well. That was pathetic. (from a Leinster perspective - congrats Ulster, well deserved. No ref complaints from me.).

Quite a tonking, and looked absolutely clueless at times. So much for our strong team of internationals available. We were better without them. Some sympathy for those saying Joe is biased towards his old Leinster pals seeing that (there is a case for the Ireland team being an Ulster Connacht combo plus Murray).
Scrum was good in the first half, Teo and Ruddock did well throughout and fought to the end. But the rest of them. Bloody hell.
Sexton just phoning it in now that his eyes are on his big money move to Bordeaux. Oh no. He doesnt even have that excuse. I thought he was committed to Leinster. Should make an effort if he wants us to believe it.
Rob. Glad Clancy gave the penalty try. Uttely brainless from Kearney, and rightly punished. The bar for penalty tries shouldnt be as high as it is and it would inhibit that type of cynical play where he thought he was doing the right thing trading 3 points for the risk of 7.
Heaslip - one of those those dies non for which he used to be criticised and I though he had put behind him over the last few years, where his average game has become very very good.
JVDF. Just not seeing what the guy has tbh. And not just this game. Couldnt understand his fast tracking even to the Irish time. Not sure that there is a lot there really.
Isa. The inventive spark and acceleration of old is well and truly gone. Fitzie or Kirchner for the semi.
McGrath. Mediocre really. Didnt let us down though. But Reddan offers nothing more. We are weak at SH.
Ringrose. Has the talent. But needs the help of a serious backs coach pronto if he is to get the best out of himself.

Some of the play was a disgrace. What is it with the inside pass in slow traffic where the receiver has about 8 of the opposition lined up just wondering which two of them will drive him backwards?
Shape was pulled all over the place, and they looked like old style amateurs rather than seasoned pros playing a well drilled modern game.
Ball in hand, at times it looked like no one wanted it and just shovelled it along brainlessly so that someone else would have to take the inevitable hit.
They looked so out of form it was more like the first game of the season where they had all had the summer off, and there were a few buyins new to the systems screwing things up as well.

No pro 12 trophy for us with that level of garbage.

The Rape of Lucretia · 30-04-2016 7:53pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

Compared to Munster last night they were like altar boys. No harm, just a bit of craic.

A bit dim though I though.
They booed Kearney when he came back from the bin as if he had cost them something - they should have been cheering him - he gave them 7 points and 10 minutes against 14 men !
Stand Uuup, for the Kearney Man, Stand uuuuup for the Kearney Man.

rsh118 · 30-04-2016 7:54pm

Incredible game, can't believe the result. Was a shame to see Leinster looking so poor, but I don't think all of it was their fault, they were made to look poor by a game plan which went after all the things Cullen wouldn't want another team to go after.

As for Clancy, thought he was okay, could possibly have given a yellow for persistent fouling to Ulster.

As for the penalty try, I liked the interpretation, and feel that were it introduced game-wide would lead to many fewer cynical fouls in the 22. Kearney could have seen red, so yellow and a penalty try doesn't seem terrible compared to 60 with 14.

Billysays no · 30-04-2016 8:01pm

Maybe I'm rugby stupid but it was hard to identify what ulster did right and Leinster did wrong. Maybe an idea would be that ulster held onto possession until the opportunity arose while Leinster were willing to shove the possession to the other team. Kinda like what Connacht do

rsh118 · 30-04-2016 8:18pm

Exactly. It's not like they looked like Zebre, they just had all their buttons pressed and it just wasn't their day.

former total · 30-04-2016 8:33pm

rsh118 wrote: »

Incredible game, can't believe the result. Was a shame to see Leinster looking so poor, but I don't think all of it was their fault, they were made to look poor by a game plan which went after all the things Cullen wouldn't want another team to go after.

As for Clancy, thought he was okay, could possibly have given a yellow for persistent fouling to Ulster.

As for the penalty try, I liked the interpretation, and feel that were it introduced game-wide would lead to many fewer cynical fouls in the 22. Kearney could have seen red, so yellow and a penalty try doesn't seem terrible compared to 60 with 14.

Kearney could have seen red?! How?

Sinbad_NI · 30-04-2016 9:42pm

Really enjoyed that game. Great result for Ulster.

PJ played a blinder again.

.mk · 30-04-2016 9:51pm

Back from Belfast, and despite the disappointing result, it's always good to get up to Ravenhill, this is my third year in a row heading up for the fixture, and always very enjoyable (despite just the one win). Had the extreme misfortune of ending up beside the four most obnoxious and ar**h*ley Leinster supportes I have ever seen. They spent the entire game hurling childish abuse at the Ulster fans and players. They were all in their late 40s/early 50s and it went far beyond 'banter' or even being good natured. The worst part was that there was an old couple, Leinster ST holders, in front of them who had to keep apologising to the Ulster fans, and at one point the woman was knocked over as one of the Leinster 'fans' leaned forward to goad an Ulster fan in front of her. Honestly, it made me start supporting Ulster by the second half. They cleared off fairly quickly towards the end though when the Ulster supporters started giving it back.They don't deserve to call themselves Leinster supporters.

rsh118 · 30-04-2016 10:02pm

former total wrote: »

rsh118 wrote: »

Incredible game, can't believe the result. Was a shame to see Leinster looking so poor, but I don't think all of it was their fault, they were made to look poor by a game plan which went after all the things Cullen wouldn't want another team to go after.

As for Clancy, thought he was okay, could possibly have given a yellow for persistent fouling to Ulster.

As for the penalty try, I liked the interpretation, and feel that were it introduced game-wide would lead to many fewer cynical fouls in the 22. Kearney could have seen red, so yellow and a penalty try doesn't seem terrible compared to 60 with 14.

Kearney could have seen red?! How?

One yellow for preventing a try scoring chance, and one extra for either the cynicism of the act, the focus on running j to Pienaar or for utter stupidity. Tbh, I'd be annoyed if the penalty try had been given against us in the same situation, and would probably have booed/blamed the ref.

Paul Smeenus · 30-04-2016 10:09pm

.mk - there are dinguses like that supporting every team. It's scundering when those people are there wearing the same jersey as you, but the imperative thing is that decent spuds like ourselves outnumber the hate-filled tools.

rsh118 · 30-04-2016 10:12pm

Yep, there's some arses in every teams repertoire, and best of all many of the arses differ from Province to Province.

Chalk one up to bad luck, and continue being a good lad and you drown out the backsides.

bilston · 30-04-2016 10:57pm

Well I'm.obviously delighted with that today. Some very good performances from Ulster and it will be interesting.to see what Joe makes of it come June. I think there is a strong argument for Marshall at 13 and Payne at 15 in green now. Anyway that's a debate for another day.

A couple of quick points.

1) As an Ulsterman that was never a penalty try but it was a defintie yellow

2) Fitzgerald waa a bit unlucky to get a yellow in the sense that he probably couldn't see when Scholes got the ball, but that's the risk your run

3) Please please please can Ireland cap Scholss asap so we don't lose him to Scotland. I'm not saying he should be in the team now but let's not lose him to Scotland. He is the future IMO.

Billysays no · 30-04-2016 11:30pm

bilston wrote: »

Well I'm.obviously delighted with that today. Some very good performances from Ulster and it will be interesting.to see what Joe makes of it come June. I think there is a strong argument for Marshall at 13 and Payne at 15 in green now. Anyway that's a debate for another day.

A couple of quick points.

1) As an Ulsterman that was never a penalty try but it was a defintie yellow

it was a card and a penalty. wasnt a hope that pienar was going to reach the ball to touch it down. that said clancy is a shocking ref.

2) Fitzgerald waa a bit unlucky to get a yellow in the sense that he probably couldn't see when Scholes got the ball, but that's the risk your run

that was a definite card. he knew exactly what he was doing

3) Please please please can Ireland cap Scholss asap so we don't lose him to Scotland. I'm not saying he should be in the team now but let's not lose him to Scotland. He is the future IMO.

scholes is a talent but there is lots of talent in ireland. would he really want to play under joe's wham bang thank you mam philosophy. he would be wasted. so i wish him the best. an excellent player

01-05-2016 8:01am

So disappointing from Leinster, just got thrashed really. Well done Ulster.

MJohnston · 01-05-2016 9:49am

Great day out at RavenSpan yesterday (is there any better rugby ground in Ireland for providing such a welcoming, family friendly atmosphere?) and obviously enjoyed the result. Coming back to read this thread of Leinster fans moaning at home was just the cherry on top

ulster_Beef · 01-05-2016 9:54am

Yesterday's atmosphere was good. Like back to the good old days. Something we are blessed with thankfully. It could come be a bit daunting I'm sure

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-05-2016 10:07am

MJohnston wrote: »

Great day out at RavenSpan yesterday (is there any better rugby ground in Ireland for providing such a welcoming, family friendly atmosphere?)

There isnt. Ravenhill is a fine setup now and very well organised. It is a pleasure going there......defeats and all.

Certainly beats the bit of crumbling pre-war-Anglesea meets camping-chair-popup-stand meets marquee-tent that is the RDS jumble.
Get yisser act together Leinster Rugby.

mfceiling · 01-05-2016 10:44am

Saw the highlights on tg4 last night.

Didn't think either team played that well but we maybe took our chances better. Leinster look a bit devoid in attack. Teo seemed the only player capable of beating a defender.

Think the scoreline flattered us a fair bit. Leinster seemed to have more possession but again couldn't do anything with it.

The penalty try was a joke tbh....clancy is very poor. As someone else pointed out there was one stage where he called "play on" for a quick lineout then changed his mind and made them take the lineout back down the field!!

Don't think Glasgow would be quaking in their boots watching that yesterday.

jacothelad · 01-05-2016 11:19am

I agree with Bil. never a penalty try though it's a pity a player can't get a red card for stupidity. I'm pretty certain McGrath would have beaten Pienaar to the ball. I think Fitz's card was also the correct decision. If anything, Scholes had more chance of scoring than Pienaar.

I also agree with Bil about getting Scholes capped. We've already lost one good winger to Scotland. We don't need deja vu all over again...:D Scholes is a high quality talent and with real pace and he is still getting better. Why the feck couldn't Ulster just point out to him the precarious position of both Bowe and Trimble re. their injury profiles and age and give him a big rise. He is a proper wing / fullback who is clocked at 10m/sec.

It was weird watching the TG4 highlights programme. Very poor selection of replays etc but I forgot to record live Sky showing.

Unless Leinster get switched on p.d.q. I can only see Glasgow winning the League. I think a 'firing on all cylinders' Leinster will win it but if they fall off the pace even a little, Glasgow will pounce.

Some of the players yesterday looked like shadows of the ones who normally rock up at Ravenhill.

McGrath is usually a powerhouse in the loose - wasn't particularly visible. Heaslip just didn't click in to gear at all. Ditto Sexton. Ringrose ran some good lines but was quickly shut down and looked a bit out of his depth in the heat of battle. T'eo will be missed next season. He is a class player. Nacewa looked as if he was running in quicksand and the 2K's were less than inspiring. Next week will be a stroll in the park. I'd imagine Leo should play his semi-final side to get a good training spin under their belt.

rsh118 · 01-05-2016 12:49pm

For rugby's sake it was nice too to see the big brutish forwards-oriented teams like Leinster can't just control a game totally through their hefty pack.

The match was a win for artistry in the backline (and some forwards) over grunty, attritional 9-man rugby.

bilston · 01-05-2016 4:24pm

mfceiling wrote: »

Saw the highlights on tg4 last night.

Didn't think either team played that well but we maybe took our chances better. Leinster look a bit devoid in attack. Teo seemed the only player capable of beating a defender.

Think the scoreline flattered us a fair bit. Leinster seemed to have more possession but again couldn't do anything with it.

The penalty try was a joke tbh....clancy is very poor. As someone else pointed out there was one stage where he called "play on" for a quick lineout then changed his mind and made them take the lineout back down the field!!

Don't think Glasgow would be quaking in their boots watching that yesterday.

No idea what highlights TG4 showed Ulster played some great rugby yesterday! That was easily our best league performance of the season and up there with the Toulouse games.

mfceiling · 01-05-2016 4:36pm

bilston wrote: »

No idea what highlights TG4 showed Ulster played some great rugby yesterday! That was easily our best league performance of the season and up there with the Toulouse games.

Seemed to only show Leinster with most of the possession and us defending like mad. Still think we are not firing on all cylinders yet but if we keep winning then maybe we can improve a bit more. Pienaar playing well seems to set the tone for the rest of the team.

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-05-2016 5:57pm

Ulster were OK rather than great for me. The cards, and Leinster shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly (boots absolutely full of holes by the end) led to the comfortable victory rather than a destroying through super play.
Which is not to take anything from Ulster. Rather, its that I still think they are well capable of playing even better than yesterday.
Jackson spanking Jonny's ass, and similar for Paybe-the-15 versus Rob will have Joe doing some serious thinking. Reputations only pay out for so long....

Brewster · 01-05-2016 6:07pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Ulster were OK rather than great for me. The cards, and Leinster shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly (boots absolutely full of holes by the end) led to the comfortable victory rather than a destroying through super play.
Which is not to take anything from Ulster. Rather, its that I still think they are well capable of playing even better than yesterday.
Jackson spanking Jonny's ass, and similar for Paybe-the-15 versus Rob will have Joe doing some serious thinking. Reputations only pay out for so long....

Payne is one of the top 5 players in the country, how some people ever doubted his ability I'll never know. Some media commentators were so disrespectful to him. He is a better 15 than 13, of course he is. World Class 15? Yea for me. He is a great 13 too. Ireland have other options coming through now at 13 that should see Payne going to 15 from here on for Ireland. Rob Kearney shouldn't be in team ahead of him and I have said this for a long time.

former total · 01-05-2016 6:07pm

mfceiling wrote: »

Seemed to only show Leinster with most of the possession and us defending like mad. Still think we are not firing on all cylinders yet but if we keep winning then maybe we can improve a bit more. Pienaar playing well seems to set the tone for the rest of the team.

The big differences for Ulster were:
1) Pienaar looking like his old self.
2) Defence - a few games in Feb/March, the Ulster defence was absolutely shambolic, in terms of structure and tackling. Yesterday, they were waiting for Leinster every time and nailed them every time.

rsh118 · 01-05-2016 6:59pm

Oh my god can't emphasise enough the improvement in defence. February Ulster would have leaked tries like rusty collander. Huge improvement to this point. Some of the tackles out wide were absolutely spectacular, particularly obviously Paddy on Ian, and a massive change from earlier this year.

Billysays no · 01-05-2016 8:28pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Scholes is a high quality talent and with real pace and he is still getting better. Why the feck couldn't Ulster just point out to him the precarious position of both Bowe and Trimble re. their injury profiles and age and give him a big rise. He is a proper wing / fullback who is clocked at 10m/sec..

Now that is a very valid question. How could ulster let him go? Huge talent simply given away

bilston · 01-05-2016 8:36pm

Billysays no wrote: »

jacothelad wrote: »

Scholes is a high quality talent and with real pace and he is still getting better. Why the feck couldn't Ulster just point out to him the precarious position of both Bowe and Trimble re. their injury profiles and age and give him a big rise. He is a proper wing / fullback who is clocked at 10m/sec..

Now that is a very valid question. How could ulster let him go? Huge talent simply given away

The worry for me is that he is lost to Irish rugby for good.

Billysays no · 01-05-2016 8:47pm

There are only 4 provinces. Its not hard to keep track of talent in Ireland. Ulster are hugely responsible for letting such a talent go. And Joe is hugely responsible for not using such talent over a staid gameplan

Bazzo · 01-05-2016 8:53pm

People have been saying he deserved to be included in the extended Irish squad for quite a while now, well before he would have negotiated a contract with Edinburgh.

Letting him go was an enormous slip up on the part of the IRFU and Ulster, they should have thrown the kitchen sink at him to stay, Ireland aren't exactly overrun with quality wingers.

Does he qualify for Scotland through any ancestry? I think he only signed a 2 year deal so if he doesn't there might be some hope of getting him back in 2 years but otherwise the Scots will almost certainly cap him ASAP.

awec · 01-05-2016 9:52pm

Sure Ireland have Dave Kearney, there's nothing to worry about. :pac:

rsh118 · 01-05-2016 11:11pm

I've watched the match back a couple of times now and what I think hampered Leinster a lot was the head on Nacewa, he lost his cool after the penalty try and seemed a bit headless for a long time after that.

Think we've all felt that though, when you feel like everything is going against you and nothing is fair.

Paul Smeenus · 02-05-2016 1:20am

Shane Horgan said it was the skillz.

bilston · 02-05-2016 8:59am

The penalty try decision went against Leinster. There were too many variables IMO for it to be awarded, but I have to admit to being p****d off with Cullen for accusing Pienaar of milking it. There was a pretty obviously clash of heads with Kearney (not intentional on Kearney's part).

The game could have gone differently were it not for the PT, but Leinster were pretty predictable in attack and in theast half hour Ulster were making yards at will so who knows.

The Pheasant2 · 02-05-2016 9:01am

bilston wrote: »

The penalty try decision went against Leinster. There were too many variables IMO for it to be awarded, but I have to admit to being p****d off with Cullen for accusing Pienaar of milking it. There was a pretty obviously clash of heads with Kearney (not intentional on Kearney's part).

The game could have gone differently were it not for the PT, but Leinster were pretty predictable in attack and in theast half hour Ulster were making yards at will so who knows.

Wasn't aware there was a head clash - I'll need to rewatch it, but I will admit I thought he was making a bit of meal of it at the time

Paul Smeenus · 02-05-2016 9:07am

There's absolutely a head clash - you can actually see it more with Kearney's head, which snaps back off Pienaar's. I thought it was low from Cullen as well, and more reckless from Kearney than It first seemed.

Paul Smeenus · 02-05-2016 9:46am

I like the response from Kiss in the article in the Independent.

" "Everyone has a sob story here and there," notes Kiss."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/leo-cullens-ref-complaints-cant-mask-leinster-failings-in-humbling-belfast-trip-34676394.html

OldRio · 02-05-2016 10:38am

In my humble opinion. Both cards and the penalty try were correct. Two cynical and deliberate fouls rightly punished. Cullen should direct his complaints at his team and not the officials.

02-05-2016 1:08pm

Not really sure what Pienaar milked, he was clearly enough taken out. I think the penalty try was seriously harsh. No issue with the yellow though.

rsh118 · 02-05-2016 1:18pm

What interests me with the PT was that the commentary box started talking about it straight away and Shaaaag was quick to agree with the decision. It could definitely be described as probable that Pienaar would have scored the try.

Pienaar is surprisingly quick when the mood takes him. If on the other hand the wording of the law said 'definitely going to score' I think there would be more of an argument against.

MJohnston · 02-05-2016 4:00pm

Pienaar milking it is just nonsense. He was properly clattered, no way he could have stayed on his feet at all, and then some physios came on to run through the typical injury check procedure. He couldn't exactly get up in the middle of that. In fact, I remember Nacewa and Ringrose doing the exact same thing at a couple of points.

swiwi_ · 02-05-2016 4:02pm

I thought Pienaar milked it a tad. However, it was already a definite YC, so it had no influence.

NB: for PT the law is "probably" (not "definitely") would have been scored.

Match thread - Ulster v Leinster, RavenSpan, 15:00, Sky Sports 1

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