Limerick improvement projects

Cookiemunster · 03-03-2016 12:15am

zulutango wrote: »

I wonder, given the election result, will a lot of these projects happen at all. A lot of them were being driven by Noonan and O'Sullivan and they're unlikely to have a senior role in the next Dáil. Neither is Maurice Quinlivan, and Willie O'Dea isn't the kind of politician (rightly or wrongly) who supports these kind of projects.

I'm hoping that the ridiculous footbridge project gets pulled anyway, but it would be disappointing if the the Opera Centre, Cleeves, Hanging Gardens, etc were stalled further.

I don't think that the projects you've mentioned will be in trouble and I disagree they're being driven by Noonan and O'Sullivan. A lot of this is council driven with the backing of government.
Remember it's not all dependant on central government money and that the council have already borrowed €32m.
The finance is in place for the Hanging Gardens and they're looking for private finance parter for the Opera Center.
Cleeves is a strange one. I think they just bought it to own it without having any plans, so again I'd say whatever development they put there will be self financed.
They also seem to have funding locked doen for O'Connell St. and Parnell St.

I doubt that some of the longer term projects such as Arthurs Quay will go ahead, but I didn't thing they were ever realistic anyway.

Arkady · 03-03-2016 12:17am

About time Limerick got these projects.

zulutango · 03-03-2016 12:45am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I don't think that the projects you've mentioned will be in trouble and I disagree they're being driven by Noonan and O'Sullivan.

My understanding was that Noonan particularly was pushing for Limerick in a big way at cabinet level. He was, after all, the second most powerful person at the table so he had huge leverage there with all government departments.

The City of Culture title is another example that springs to mind. That was from Jimmy Deenihan, but it was basically Noonan fighting for Limerick at cabinet.

I'm not even a fan of Noonan, nor did I vote for him, but I've heard this from well informed sources.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a political debate, but I'm just wary of Limerick's prospects with whatever new administration is formed.

Townie_P · 03-03-2016 1:50am

phog wrote: »

I remember flooding on lower Cecil St but with flood barriers installed it hasn't flooded in years. Should we be planning to move the city?

If Cecil Street is no longer flooding, it just means some other place further down the river is flooding instead (and possibly a place that may never have flooded before), which was my original point. A flood plain is a flood plain for a reason.

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

The council own the Cleeves site and they could easily ask LIT to develop theses bits and bobs here and there ideas at somewhere like the Cleeves site and still use Coonagh Cross and move their sports facilities out there which frees up a lot of space at Moylish to develop that campus.

Cleeves is a great landmark city centre site on the river Shannon. It'd be a spectacular waste if the best use for it they could think of would be as a college campus. Loads of other sites in the city though that could take a proper campus.

dave 27 · 03-03-2016 11:31am

I'd much prefer to see a high quality development of housing in the cleeves site like mentioned before, imagine something like what we see in England transforming old mills to posh neighbourhoods, would be better in my eyes and have density similar to across the river with riverpoint.

riverrocked · 03-03-2016 12:08pm

I am going to be controversial here but the raving about the Georgian city isn't doing the city any favours as it is cost prohibitive for individuals and even I dare say the government to revitalise these to good living standards.

What we are missing in the city and why people aren't living in the city is because there is nowhere that the vast majority would want to live. The Georgian buildings are freezing and riddled with problems, especially those what have not been occupied for awhile, like on Catherine Street and Mallow Street, which are veering on collapse as we speak. Imagine multiple high quality gated apartments with a parking space built in the city. Now that would improve the city.

I am not saying demolish all the Georgian buildings but there are plenty that really aren't worth saving.

(I can hear rioters at my door already)

Jofspring · 03-03-2016 12:13pm

riverrocked wrote: »

I am going to be controversial here but the raving about the Georgian city isn't doing the city any favours as it is cost prohibitive for individuals and even I dare say the government to revitalise these to good living standards.

What we are missing in the city and why people aren't living in the city is because there is nowhere that the vast majority would want to live. The Georgian buildings are freezing and riddled with problems, especially those what have not been occupied for awhile, like on Catherine Street and Mallow Street, which are veering on collapse as we speak. Imagine multiple high quality gated apartments with a parking space built in the city. Now that would improve the city.

I am not saying demolish all the Georgian buildings but there are plenty that really aren't worth saving.

(I can hear rioters at my door already)

jbkenn · 03-03-2016 2:12pm

riverrocked wrote: »

I am going to be controversial here but the raving about the Georgian city isn't doing the city any favours as it is cost prohibitive for individuals and even I dare say the government to revitalise these to good living standards.

What we are missing in the city and why people aren't living in the city is because there is nowhere that the vast majority would want to live. The Georgian buildings are freezing and riddled with problems, especially those what have not been occupied for awhile, like on Catherine Street and Mallow Street, which are veering on collapse as we speak. Imagine multiple high quality gated apartments with a parking space built in the city. Now that would improve the city.

I am not saying demolish all the Georgian buildings but there are plenty that really aren't worth saving.

(I can hear rioters at my door already)

Well said, a dose of reality is badly needed in this town.

dave 27 · 03-03-2016 2:30pm

Like I said a high quality apartment development at the cleeves site would be a good start, something like what's up in the Dublin docklands

zulutango · 03-03-2016 3:30pm

riverrocked wrote: »

I am going to be controversial here but the raving about the Georgian city isn't doing the city any favours as it is cost prohibitive for individuals and even I dare say the government to revitalise these to good living standards.

What we are missing in the city and why people aren't living in the city is because there is nowhere that the vast majority would want to live. The Georgian buildings are freezing and riddled with problems, especially those what have not been occupied for awhile, like on Catherine Street and Mallow Street, which are veering on collapse as we speak. Imagine multiple high quality gated apartments with a parking space built in the city. Now that would improve the city.

I am not saying demolish all the Georgian buildings but there are plenty that really aren't worth saving.

(I can hear rioters at my door already)

I think you raise a fair point but I'd argue that the Georgian city can be saved and can be a desirable place to live if we go about things a different way. I'd actually argue that some of these streets could be absolute gems and plenty of people would want to live in them. I think we're looking at the problem in the wrong way. Here's a post I made in a different thread, and this way forward would be much more effective and less expensive.

zulutango wrote: »

There's too much talk about renovating buildings. I think we all want to see that happening but we're jumping the gun. Who'll put a lot of money into a building in a run-down area? Very few investors or landlords would take that risk, especially when the rents in these areas are so low.

What we (i.e. the Council) could do, however, is put our focus and energies into making really lovely streets. If we do that then a lot more people will see the areas as up and coming and will take the chance on investment. There's a precedent for this on Clancy and O'Callaghan Strands, of course. Both were quite run down but the excellent public realm works over there breathed life into those areaa. Since then a number of the older houses have been bought and tastefully renovated and the strands have become very popular lesiure areas. Businesses have either opened or greatly benefitted too. I very much doubt if the Curraghower Pub or Jack Mondays would exist in their current form (or at all) if these public realm works hadn't been carried out. The rents over there are the highest in the city centre these days whereas they used to be among the lowest.

We could apply the same thinking to the like of Upper O'Connell Street, Catherine Street and the smaller city centre streets and the rejuvenation of Georgian Limerick would automatically roll on from there. These could be absolutely beautiful residential streets, which is what they were designed to be. At the moment they're only appealing to a certain demographic and that'll continue to be the case until we take the above approach.

Cookiemunster · 22-03-2016 11:04pm

An update on the Opera Center. According to tonights Chronicle 7 interested parties have been reduced to 4 by the council. Apparently a design team is due to be appointed in April, and six weeks after that the tender documents will be submitted to these four. One or two of these will selected to build/run the center by Autumn.

Also the Hanging gardens won't have a contractor on site until October with an 18 month build schedule.

None of this is up online yet so I can't link.

zulutango · 22-03-2016 11:27pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

An update on the Opera Center. According to tonights Chronicle 7 interested parties have been reduced to 4 by the council. Apparently a design team is due to be appointed in April, and six weeks after that the tender documents will be submitted to these four. One or two of these will selected to build/run the center by Autumn.

Also the Hanging gardens won't have a contractor on site until October with an 18 month build schedule.

None of this is up online yet so I can't link.

Both projects are still subject to planning, as far as I know. I wonder has that been factored into the timeline.

In Exile · 23-03-2016 2:17am

I can't believe this bridge they talk about could really go ahead.

I am nearly considered a tourist to Limerick these days, but when I do go home, I love nothing more than walking from the city out to the Curragower, sitting outside and enjoying the view across the river.

It is one of my favourite parts of going home. I can't think of anything worse than a bridge blocking the views

zulutango · 23-03-2016 11:06am

The bridge is being discussed on Live95fm in a few minutes (just after the 10am news).

edit: we have to sit through some inane dribble about Eastenders first :rolleyes:

zulutango · 30-03-2016 11:55am

So, the Council seem to be trying to fast track the Cleeves Development as well as the Hanging Gardens one. I wonder if pushing for this before the government changes. I'd imagine Alan Kelly has to sign off on this kind of stuff, and there's every chance that a new Minister for Envoronment and Local Government won't be as kind to Limerick.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/205006/Former-Cleeve-s-factory-in-Limerick.html

Cookiemunster · 30-03-2016 1:53pm

zulutango wrote: »

So, the Council seem to be trying to fast track the Cleeves Development as well as the Hanging Gardens one. I wonder if pushing for this before the government changes. I'd imagine Alan Kelly has to sign off on this kind of stuff, and there's every chance that a new Minister for Envoronment and Local Government won't be as kind to Limerick.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/205006/Former-Cleeve-s-factory-in-Limerick.html

I'm still unsure as to why you think that this has anything to do with the government? The council has taken out a €32m loan to pay for things like this and the Hanging Gardens. They don't need to get central government permission to spend it.

zulutango · 30-03-2016 2:12pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm still unsure as to why you think that this has anything to do with the government? The council has taken out a €32m loan to pay for things like this and the Hanging Gardens. They don't need to get central government permission to spend it.

The Minister for Environment & Local Government is over the Council. I'm suggesting that with the plans to fast track the projects (through a development vehicle) it might need the sign-off from the Minister. I am only speculating, but it just seems more than co-incidental that these things are being pushed in the last few weeks since the fallout from the general election. The Council doesn't act independently of the Department of Environment & Local Government in any case.

Cookiemunster · 30-03-2016 2:22pm

zulutango wrote: »

The Minister for Environment & Local Government is over the Council. I'm suggesting that with the plans to fast track the projects (through a development vehicle) it might need the sign-off from the Minister. I am only speculating, but it just seems more than co-incidental that these things are being pushed in the last few weeks since the fallout from the general election. The Council doesn't act independently of the Department of Environment & Local Government in any case.

I would say that other than the Cleeves site, the plans are actually way behind schedule rather being fast tracked. Originally they said that the builders would be in the Hanging Gardens by January, now its next October. And the Opera Center is way way behind schedule.

zulutango · 30-03-2016 2:26pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I would say that other than the Cleeves site, the plans are actually way behind schedule rather being fast tracked. Originally they said that the builders would be in the Hanging Gardens by January, now its next October. And the Opera Center is way way behind schedule.

Yes, but the decision to fast-track them through this development vehicle has just been made in the last few weeks. And, it must be remembered that Noonan was the one pushing these projects at government level.

Cookiemunster · 30-03-2016 2:59pm

zulutango wrote: »

Yes, but the decision to fast-track them through this development vehicle has just been made in the last few weeks. And, it must be remembered that Noonan was the one pushing these projects at government level.

Noonan was pushing the overall €250m 2030 plan, not the individual projects other than the Opera Center.
Surely if they were suddenly fast tracking everything they'd have done it before the election, rather than after it. Especially seeing as the polls for the last 2 years made it obvious that the last government wouldn't be returned.

The other question is does a caretaker minister have the power to sign anything off? Because remember we currently have no government, just a caretaker cabinet.

zulutango · 30-03-2016 3:06pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Noonan was pushing the overall €250m 2030 plan, not the individual projects other than the Opera Center.
Surely if they were suddenly fast tracking everything they'd have done it before the election, rather than after it. Especially seeing as the polls for the last 2 years made it obvious that the last government wouldn't be returned.

The other question is does a caretaker minister have the power to sign anything off? Because remember we currently have no government, just a caretaker cabinet.

I think they were fully sure that FG would be returned. All the polls suggested that right up to the final weeks. I think the caretaker cabinet does have the power to sign stuff off, yes. Anyway, this is just idle speculation.

crusha101 · 01-04-2016 11:54am

A sign if investment in Limerick

"THE Crescent Shopping Centre has lodged an application to deliver a major makeover, which — if given the green light — will include a significant expansion in retail, café and restaurant space.

The proposals, lodged by CSC Property Investments, include the raising of ceiling space in some malls; the reconfiguration of seven internal units and one external unit to provide six internal units; creation of five new external units, and three of which will accommodate restaurant, café and deli-bar uses.

Plans also include the installation of a new landscaped events public plaza at the north of the complex, accompanied by stronger pedestrian links between St Nessan’s Road and the shopping centre.

According to the proposed development, there will be an overall increase of 1,743 square metres in retail floorspace, and an overall gross increase of 3,384 square metres on the site."

Which of course is met with opposition.

"Limerick City Business Association chairperson, Helen O’Donnell said that while it is “important that it [the Crescent] survives and that it operates its full capacity”, they would not like the shopping complex to be competing with the city centre for tenants.

She added that they would not be opposed to this development, as they are “not increasing the space by a significant size.

“We don’t want any more shopping centres to compound the donut effect in Limerick.

“So it’s important that it stays as a good shopping centre because it is highly regarded within the region. But we would hope that people will look at units in the city centre.”

Ms O’Donnell said that the LCBA do not want more shopping complexes “until the city centre is sorted out”.

She added that development needs to take place on current derelict sites to attract more businesses in the city centre.

Opinions ?

Bored_lad · 01-04-2016 12:34pm

It doesn't sound like Helen O'Donnell and the city business are opposed to it. I think they realise the Crescent is a huge attraction that gets people into the area from the greater Munster area and this development should be supported. They just don't want more ship centres to be built until the city is thriving fully again and isn't full of derelict sites.

I don't really want to see more development in the Crescent myself purely because I never go out there and it will probably pull some big international brands that I'd prefer to see in the city as they'd be more accessible to me. However the expanding of the crescent is preferable to me than the building of new shopping centres such as the parkway valley.

zulutango · 01-04-2016 12:42pm

Some thoughts ..

The Crescent is so successful because the population of the Midwest is so spread out and the Crescent provides easy access to this population for its retail needs.

Try as it might the city centre retailers can't really expect to access very much of that market, given the disadvantages it has in the area of access, traffic, parking, etc. So, basically, unless the city centre becomes a very populous place again, then retail here is going to be limited by comparison to the likes of the Crescent.

That's Limerick challenge, in my opinion. It must go from a place where very few people live in or near the centre to a place where lots of people live in or near the centre. That can happen but we have a hell of a long way to go. Something like only 3% of the metropolitan population live in the original core. That's a startling indictment of Limerick's current state.

Townie_P · 03-04-2016 3:39pm

zulutango wrote: »

Some thoughts ..

The Crescent is so successful because the population of the Midwest is so spread out and the Crescent provides easy access to this population for its retail needs.

Try as it might the city centre retailers can't really expect to access very much of that market, given the disadvantages it has in the area of access, traffic, parking, etc. So, basically, unless the city centre becomes a very populous place again, then retail here is going to be limited by comparison to the likes of the Crescent.

That's Limerick challenge, in my opinion. It must go from a place where very few people live in or near the centre to a place where lots of people live in or near the centre. That can happen but we have a hell of a long way to go. Something like only 3% of the metropolitan population live in the original core. That's a startling indictment of Limerick's current state.

There is plenty of opportunity for the City Centre. One thing you have to remember about the Crescent is the huge rents, service charges and rates. It is not every business or business model that can afford this. For an average unit in the older part that they are now looking to renovate and expand, you are currently talking €120k to €150k per year all in. Make no mistake that once the renovation is complete, these rents are only going one way - up. This announcement makes perfect sense of all the recent closures (and more potential closures) of independents in the older part of the Crescent. They are now looking for big rents again, but it looks like there has been another agenda too.

The point is though, it's not every business that can afford the Crescent and indeed, some fairly big hitters in retail have opened and closed in the Crescent over the years. The Crescent is not the be all and end all, it works for some, it doesn't for others. For example New Look were looking at the Crescent for a long time, including the current Mothercare unit. But they decided against it. They're doing fine in the City Centre. As I have said before, in 5 years (possibly a lot sooner) there will be no independent retailers left there and like every other major centre, it will only be affordable to the biggest retailers who sell the most volume. And as a result it's just going to be populated with the same stores as every soulless shopping centre in Ireland and the UK.

The opportunity for the city centre lies in attracting the companies that can't afford the Crescent and also in offering the diversity that independent retailers bring to the table. For example, how many Women's boutiques are in the Crescent? None. They're all in the city centre. So that woman who isn't a skinny size 10 or who wants better quality than Next or Zara, she's already shopping in the city centre. Quality men's clothing in the Crescent? Hardly any, apart from the few brands Tony Connolly carries or the small bits in Tommy. If you want Hugo Boss, Ralph Polo etc you have to go to town.

Further to that, there's a train of thought that the owners of the Crescent are priming it for a sale once the wider economy recovers. Their main business now is office developments in Dublin, and they have a number of them coming on stream between now and 2020. Refurbish the old part of the Crescent, expand it as much as they would be allowed, fill it with big name A rated tenants, put it on the market....

Cookiemunster · 13-04-2016 3:18pm

The council are looking for public submissions on the hanging gardens project.
http://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/atoms/files/notice_of_proposed_development_at_the_former_gpo_a_protected_structure_rps275.pdf
This is the plan is
i.The completion of the existing partially completed office building.
ii.The construction of a new 5 storey office building on the site of no.19 Henry Street.
iii.The refurbishment / repair of the former GPO, mercantile building and hanging gardens.
iv.Completion of the basement.

crusha101 · 13-04-2016 3:44pm

Thanks for sharing,
I suppose some progress is better than no progress, tbh i wont believe it until i see builders on site.

Red King · 13-04-2016 3:58pm

Townie_P wrote: »

Quality men's clothing in the Crescent? Hardly any, apart from the few brands Tony Connolly carries or the small bits in Tommy. If you want Hugo Boss, Ralph Polo etc you have to go to town.

Think the only advantage town has over the Crescent is Brown Thomas.

Other than that the Crescent has pretty much everything town has, if not more.

Town recently lost Ted Baker and Camicie too.

Bored_lad · 13-04-2016 4:19pm

Red King wrote: »

Town recently lost Ted Baker and Camicie too.

The Ted Baker from Brown Thomas is hardly gone already is it?

crusha101 · 13-04-2016 4:21pm

Bored_lad wrote: »

The Ted Baker from Brown Thomas is hardly gone already is it?

bought a nice ted baker blazer in BT on the weekend , unless it was on clearance ted baker is still there

Limerick improvement projects

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