Cycling/Walking around the city

GDSGR8 · 07-04-2016 9:25pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

As a quick observation on the above. It can seem an obvious solution to call for the construction of more cycle facilities in the city.

But we need to bear in mind that the roads engineers who will be building them are the same people who spent their professional lives, and our taxes, trying to find more sophisticated ways to remove time (access) from people on foot and give that time to car traffic.

Just pointing that out.

Could you illustrate this point with a few examples?

Unrealistic · 08-04-2016 9:43am

GDSGR8 wrote: »

Could you illustrate this point with a few examples?

I don't know if it's an example that the original poster has in mind but the exit from Dunnes Terryland opposite Dun Na Coiribe is one example that jumps out at me. Two separate sets of pedestrian lights that don't light up simultaneously so pedestrians have to wait two full cycles to cross a relatively insignificant car exit from a commercial premises.

Mrs OBumble · 08-04-2016 1:07pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Hmmm straw man arguments? Nobody said anything about "no vehicle access" only that certain types of vehicle would be restricted to using certain routes.

The same places would remain accessible.

The statement was "little or no private motor traffic over that bridge".

The only way to achieve that would be to have similar traffic in the surrounding streets.

galwaycyclist · 08-04-2016 2:17pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The statement was "little or no private motor traffic over that bridge".

The only way to achieve that would be to have similar traffic in the surrounding streets.

Uh no - the way to achieve that would be to have cross-city car traffic using the existing ring route via the Quincentenial Bridge.

This would mean less traffic on the Wolf Tone bridge. It would also mean less traffic on Fr. Griffin Road, Claddagh Rd, Sea Road, Henry St, Dominick St etc.

i.e. less traffic on the inner bridge(s) results in less traffic on the local roads in the immediate vicinity that are being used to access those bridges.

galwaycyclist · 08-04-2016 2:21pm

Unrealistic wrote: »

I don't know if it's an example that the original poster has in mind but the exit from Dunnes Terryland opposite Dun Na Coiribe is one example that jumps out at me. Two separate sets of pedestrian lights that don't light up simultaneously so pedestrians have to wait two full cycles to cross a relatively insignificant car exit from a commercial premises.

Another example is the pedestrian crossing on University Road which is away from the "desire line" for many people who want to cross that road.

People on foot are being penalized by being sent on a diversion.

Another example is at the GMIT where the two bus stops are opposite the college but the crossing points are not. So you are expected to walk down to what was Dawn Dairys or cross at a busy roundabout - which is silly.

08-04-2016 2:23pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh no - the way to achieve that would be to have cross-city car traffic using the existing ring route via the Quincentenial Bridge.

This would mean less traffic on the Wolf Tone bridge. It would also mean less traffic on Fr. Griffin Road, Claddagh Rd, Sea Road, Henry St, Dominick St etc.

i.e. less traffic on the inner bridge(s) results in less traffic on the local roads in the immediate vicinity that are being used to access those bridges.

Its not practical and would be a massive inconvenience for people living in certain areas to not be able to cross town through the city centre, why should motorists be inconvenienced so a few people can cross the road a bit quicker? There no fairness whatsoever in it along with the fact some people want or need their car in the city centre.

Its laughable really as the same people suggesting things like this are the same people opposed to the outer bypass which would take massive amounts of cars off the city centre roads thus freeing it up for those who need to drive in or through there as well as pedestrians and cyclists.

08-04-2016 2:25pm

I would love to see the city centre car free and that is as a driver!

However that will never happen without the bypass

galwaycyclist · 08-04-2016 2:33pm

GDSGR8 wrote: »

Could you illustrate this point with a few examples?

The most glaring example is Eyre Square where pedestrians were systematically deprioritised to facilitate and encourage motor traffic.

As part of the "upgrade" the linked zebra crossings at the corners were removed. A deliberate attempt was made to force people on foot to stop and wait by default regardless of the traffic conditions.

The relocation of the southwest crossing to around the corner from the AIB was, in my view, ridiculous.

The essential nature of the Eyre Square scheme was of removing access and priority from people on foot to give it to motor traffic. In my view, the Eyre Square scheme was clearly informed by an official attitude that was at best contemptuous of pedestrian access to the city centre.

At the Bord Pleanala hearing beforehand it transpired that, although they were proclaiming this scheme as "pedestrian-friendly", the City Council and their consultants had never actually gone out and counted the number of people who crossed the road in Eyre Square. (They did a quick count the week of the hearing itself)

They had gone through the entire detailed design and planning process for a "pedestrian-friendly" scheme without showing any apparent interest in how many people were crossing the road?, where they were coming from? or where they were going?

On the other hand I am sure there were detailed "traffic counts" available.

galwaycyclist · 08-04-2016 2:53pm

GDSGR8 wrote: »

Could you illustrate this point with a few examples?

Another example is the City Council proposal to put a green man/red man crossing at the top of Eyre Street between Debenhams and the lane to Eyre Square (Rosary lane I think its called).

I am not aware of any major problem for people crossing the road here. However, clearly somebody in City Hall views these crossing shoppers as cause of inconvenience for motor traffic.

galwaycyclist · 08-04-2016 3:14pm

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

Its not practical and would be a massive inconvenience for people living in certain areas to not be able to cross town through the city centre, why should motorists be inconvenienced so a few people can cross the road a bit quicker? There no fairness whatsoever in it along with the fact some people want or need their car in the city centre.

Its laughable really as the same people suggesting things like this are the same people opposed to the outer bypass which would take massive amounts of cars off the city centre roads thus freeing it up for those who need to drive in or through there as well as pedestrians and cyclists.

It is not "motorists" who would be inconvenienced it would only be those motorists who have no business being there anyway.

The motorists who currently use the city centre as a rat run are not simply making life difficult for people who want to cross the road. They are making life difficult for anybody who has business in the city centre. E.g.

Delivery people
Shoppers
Business people
People who work in the city centre
Children who attend schools in the city centre
Public Transport services
Taxi services
People who live in the city centre

And so on. All of these users of the city centre are penalized by a policy of allowing it to be used as a route by those who are just "passing through".

08-04-2016 3:53pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

It is not "motorists" who would be inconvenienced it would only be those motorists who have no business being there anyway.

The motorists who currently use the city centre as a rat run are not simply making life difficult for people who want to cross the road. They are making life difficult for anybody who has business in the city centre. E.g.
Delivery people

Shoppers

Business people

People who work in the city centre

Children who attend schools in the city centre

Public Transport services

Taxi services

People who live in the city centre

And so on. All of these users of the city centre are penalized by a policy of allowing it to be used as a route by those who are just "passing through".

Couldn't agree more. One Sunday a few weeks back, I finished work at 3pm in Ballybrit, had to go out to Salthill and had no option but to come within a few hundred meters of the city centre to cross the river.

As a motorist that shouldn't have to be the case

As a cyclist and pedestrian, I don't want to have to deal with traffic that shouldn't be there

Bring on the bypass!

08-04-2016 4:03pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

It is not "motorists" who would be inconvenienced it would only be those motorists who have no business being there anyway.

The motorists who currently use the city centre as a rat run are not simply making life difficult for people who want to cross the road. They are making life difficult for anybody who has business in the city centre. E.g.
Delivery people

Shoppers

Business people

People who work in the city centre

Children who attend schools in the city centre

Public Transport services

Taxi services

People who live in the city centre

And so on. All of these users of the city centre are penalized by a policy of allowing it to be used as a route by those who are just "passing through".

For a start the city centre is not a rat run its a genuine main route from one side of the city to the other.

Do you really think it would be fair to force someone say living in the claddagh or out towards Salthill and working on the east side of the city or out towards oranmore etc to have to drive all the way around by the QB every morning and evening to get to work?

galwaycyclist · 08-04-2016 4:28pm

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

For a start the city centre is not a rat run its a genuine main route from one side of the city to the other.

Do you really think it would be fair to force someone say living in the claddagh or out towards Salthill and working on the east side of the city or out towards oranmore etc to have to drive all the way around by the QB every morning and evening to get to work?

One man's "genuine route" is another community's traffic blighted rat-run.

Yes it is entirely fair. A functioning city has to be managed in the best interests of all the people who live and work there not just for the interests of those who want to leave a car sitting doing nothing in two different places for most of the day.

I would say that for people in Claddagh and Salthill it would be worth the hassle if it meant they didnt have to deal with people from Barna, Furbo or Knocknacarra using their streets as rat runs.

biko · 08-04-2016 4:44pm

If they didn't want me to drive there, they shouldn't have made the road so wide and flat

08-04-2016 4:58pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I would say that for people in Claddagh and Salthill it would be worth the hassle if it meant they didnt have to deal with people from Barna, Furbo or Knocknacarra using their streets as rat runs.

And if the outer bypass was built they wouldn't have to.

The bypass is the key, it would take all this traffic away without having to set any overly strict rules and regulations about who can and can't drive through the centre of a city.

galwaycyclist · 08-04-2016 5:04pm

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

And if the outer bypass was built they wouldn't have to.

The bypass is the key, it would take all this traffic away without having to set any overly strict rules and regulations about who can and can't drive through the centre of a city.

We already have a bypass that did not have this effect why would another bypass work?

08-04-2016 5:27pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

We already have a bypass that did not have this effect why would another bypass work?

The QB is not a bypass its basically a road through the city also, one which is needed but not capable of doing the job of a proper bypass.

We need a high flow fast moving road to motorway standards to get people in their cars quickly from their homes to their work places in different parts of the city. The route from say from barna to parkmore via the QB is passing through large parts that would be considered part of the city along with god knows how many sets of lights and other business, shopping centres, schools in between.

Unrealistic · 08-04-2016 6:16pm

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

The QB is not a bypass its basically a road through the city also, one which is needed but not capable of doing the job of a proper bypass.

I think the point is that it was built to be a bypass but instead was used to open up the land around it so that it became a road within the city. All indications are that if we build a new so called bypass the exact same pattern would repeat itself and we would be back at square one but on a much larger scale.

thesandeman · 09-04-2016 5:50am

Unrealistic wrote: »

I think the point is that it was built to be a bypass but instead was used to open up the land around it so that it became a road within the city. All indications are that if we build a new so called bypass the exact same pattern would repeat itself and we would be back at square one but on a much larger scale.

Probably the most true words ever posted on Boards.

Mrs OBumble · 09-04-2016 12:41pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

One man's "genuine route" is another community's traffic blighted rat-run.

Yes it is entirely fair. A functioning city has to be managed in the best interests of all the people who live and work there not just for the interests of those who want to leave a car sitting doing nothing in two different places for most of the day.

I would say that for people in Claddagh and Salthill it would be worth the hassle if it meant they didnt have to deal with people from Barna, Furbo or Knocknacarra using their streets as rat runs.

The only way to stop people from Barna going thru Salthill and the Wolfe Tone or O'Brien's bridges on their way to Renmore (for example) is totally ban private traffic from those bridges and thus from the surrounding streets. If you do that, then you also stop me from occasionally getting a rental car and taking it close to my home, for example if I'm moving house, or going on holiday and taking a lot of stuff with me - or even just doing a large supermarket shop. You also remove a lot of the passive surveillance that helps keep the city streets relatively safe.

Banning traffic is not the way to deal with the problem.

Providing attractive alternatives is.

That means bicycle lanes - along with education and penalties so that cyclists obey the road-rules. It means effective public transport - and publicity / education about how to use it. It means walker-friendly (not walker exclusive) streets. It means expensive parking. It means planning policies that put houses and jobs / schools / shops in connected areas.

what_traffic · 09-04-2016 4:45pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you do that, then you also stop me from occasionally getting a rental car and taking it close to my home, for example if I'm moving house, or going on holiday and taking a lot of stuff with me - or even just doing a large supermarket shop. You also remove a lot of the passive surveillance that helps keep the city streets relatively safe.

You would not be stopped in any way. You would not be closing down any roads at all just creating a Cul de Sac on the bridges.
Re Passive Surveillance - its mostly Taxis that use the roads in the City Centre late at night anyhow and they would not be restricted.
Also could have Time related depending on Summer Time v's Winter time.

galwaycyclist · 10-04-2016 12:32pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The only way to stop people from Barna going thru Salthill and the Wolfe Tone or O'Brien's bridges on their way to Renmore (for example)

<snip>

I am afraid you are still missing the essential nature of what is being proposed. Also there is nothing "radical" or "new" about such measures.

This is from a 1974 report by European Transport ministers

See point f)

(I should point out that I understand that the Bremen scheme was introduced in 1960)

Source: https://books.google.ie/books?id=DTxcAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=bremen+traffic+restraint+zones&source=bl&ots=XYrMxOtNrI&sig=gIuJXZ9I4W3xcGPTxTEuzcJ1s4w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHo6Gn-oPMAhUE8CYKHUntCJ0Q6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=bremen%20traffic%20restraint%20zones&f=false

gordongekko · 10-04-2016 12:58pm

Never understand why people keep bringing up the likes of cycling in Holland Germany etc in a galway city forum.

what_traffic · 10-04-2016 9:48pm

gordongekko wrote: »

Never understand why people keep bringing up the likes of cycling in Holland Germany etc in a galway city forum.

I never understand why people bother replying to a thread when they have nothing to contribute to it.

biko · 10-04-2016 10:17pm

Play nice

CramCycle · 11-04-2016 10:28am

gordongekko wrote: »

Never understand why people keep bringing up the likes of cycling in Holland Germany etc in a galway city forum.

Because many people consider it good practice and use it as an example of how they believe things can be done well.

I agree that there are lessons to be learned from these examples, but I also think that we can also have our own novel solutions that improve upon or start from somewhere else in the likes of Galway.

There are lessons to be learned from some cities in Germany that would work well in Galway but they require a huge mental shift for many road users. I think the biggest culture change would have to be at the council and planning stage, where they actually should open the forum up far wider audience, even on small issues. Have detailed presentations and invite alternative plans to present as well. Maybe they do, but its not the impression I get whenever I am in Galway.

Mrs OBumble · 11-04-2016 12:33pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I am afraid you are still missing the essential nature of what is being proposed. Also there is nothing "radical" or "new" about such measures.

So help me understand what is being suggested then.

To help put it in very concrete terms, please think about a journey I currently make: I live near Merchants Rd. Once a month, I go to an even in Salthill with a friend from Renmore, which is attended by some people who live in town and some who live out in Connemara.

Usually, I go there on the bus, and my friend gives me a lift home - about 1am in the morning.

Now, under some scenarios I've heard here, Wolfe Tone Bridge would be a cul-de-sac - accessible by pedestrians, and those cyclists who chose to dismount their vehicles and wheel them across manually. I think that in this case, I would have to walk to the Claddagh, and could then catch a bus to Salthill from there. Or perhaps the bus would have to go via the Quin... bridge too.

Under another scenario, the bridge would still be open, but only to taxis and other public transport vehicles (so hired bicycles ok, private ones not). In this scenario, I could still catch the bus from Eyre Square and it would go over the bridge.

Either way, at 1am my friend would still have to drive from Salthill out to Newcastle, cross the bridge there and then come right back in to town to drop me home. Or (scenario 2), I would catch a taxi home and travel the direct route, while she goes out to Newcastle and then along the ring road until Bohermore.

Am I getting this? What am I missing? Or should I just not be choosing to socialise with people who live so far away from me???

gordongekko · 11-04-2016 1:00pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Because many people consider it good practice and use it as an example of how they believe things can be done well.

I agree that there are lessons to be learned from these examples, but I also think that we can also have our own novel solutions that improve upon or start from somewhere else in the likes of Galway.

There are lessons to be learned from some cities in Germany that would work well in Galway but they require a huge mental shift for many road users. I think the biggest culture change would have to be at the council and planning stage, where they actually should open the forum up far wider audience, even on small issues. Have detailed presentations and invite alternative plans to present as well. Maybe they do, but its not the impression I get whenever I am in Galway.

The 2 cities mentioned in the above article have populations over over 500000 and substantial light rail and motorways. Neither are in anyway comparable to galway

galwaycyclist · 11-04-2016 1:51pm

gordongekko wrote: »

The 2 cities mentioned in the above article have populations over over 500000 and substantial light rail and motorways. Neither are in anyway comparable to galway

Delft has a similar solution in place. The issue of motorways is irrelevant since there is nothing to the west of Galway that would justify or need a motorway.

gordongekko · 11-04-2016 1:56pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Delft has a similar solution in place. The issue of motorways is irrelevant since there is nothing to the west of Galway that would justify or need a motorway.

Of course it does when the traffic has no choice but to clog up the city centre when there is no other alternative to get from one size of the town to the other. If we had proper infrastructure then we'd have less traffic in the city centre which would allow for more cycle routes. We can't have one without the other.

Cycling/Walking around the city

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