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NI Woman Gets Suspended Sentence for Using Abortion Pills

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Comments

  • #62
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    Commit the crime, do the time.
    And well done for the citizens who reported the crime, as is every citizen's duty, comments about "grassing" reflects a toleration for crime and a disregard for society.

    Get real, do you really think a woman down south should get 14 yrs for abortion?


  • #63
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    This girl had an emotional and health issue and was turned into a criminal.

    That is not right.

    But if I opened my bin and saw a dead foetus in there, I can't say I would be too happy about seeing that either. She could have been a bit more careful about disposing of it.

    She was 12 weeks pregnant. What methods of disposal of the fetus do you think are in place for someone who miscarries spontaneously at home at that stage?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #64
    Nomis21
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    volchitsa wrote: »
    She was 12 weeks pregnant. What methods of disposal of the fetus do you think are in place for someone who miscarries spontaneously at home at that stage?

    A plastic bag perhaps...?

    or a dustbin bag, or anything to put it out of view


  • #65
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    thee glitz wrote: »
    I'm very comfortable with my morals, and abhorring abortion is beginner stuff.

    It's a possible 14 year sentence in the RoI. This girl got three months, suspended. That's a huge difference. Which of the two would be better indicated for a case like this in your view : 14 years or three months, suspended?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    This is just disgusting. The poor woman having to go through that. I really don't get the housemates either, it would have been fine if she was upset but not because she was blase. I am amazed at this.

    This is a very common issue in any abortion debate.
    People have sympathy for those who have been raped & or have a fatal feotal abnormality.
    Or some poor ' nice' girl.

    Those same people can turn around & be dead against someone they see as not caring.
    Judging everyone.
    No one knows what goes on in other people's minds, no one knows what issues other people have, who choose to keep it to themselves.
    I hope these housemates eventually see what they have done in making a bad situation 1000% times worse.


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  • #67
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    A plastic bag perhaps...?

    or a dustbin bag, or anything to put it out of view

    And do we know there wasn't? I mean, it's possible they searched through the bin for evidence isn't it?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #68
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    volchitsa wrote: »
    It's a possible 14 year sentence in the RoI. This girl got three months, suspended. That's a huge difference. Which of the two would be better indicated for a case like this in your view : 14 years or three months, suspended?

    A custodial sentence is appropriate, possibly suspended depending on mitigating factors.


  • #69
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    thee glitz wrote: »
    A custodial sentence is appropriate, possibly suspended depending on mitigating factors.

    Appropriate for what reason?


  • #70
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,377 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    You can't respect all law without question especially when so ridiculous in one part of the UK and not in another, and her housemates are clearly heartless scumbags, citizens duty or not.

    There was a heartless scumbag in that house, and it wasn't the housemates.


  • #71
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Appropriate for what reason?

    She killed her child, thus breaking the law.


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  • #72
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    A plastic bag perhaps...?

    or a dustbin bag, or anything to put it out of view

    From the article quoted earlier
    including a foetus which was located in a black bag in the household bin.
    She miscarried on July 12, and the following day her housemates found both blood-stained items and the foetus in the bin. One housemate described the foetus as a "wee baby" around four inches long.


  • #73
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    thee glitz wrote: »
    She killed her child, thus breaking the law.

    If she killed her child she would have been charged with killing a child.


  • #74
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If she killed her child she would have been charged with killing a child.

    Charged with killing her child. and she was, convicted too.


  • #75
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    thee glitz wrote: »
    A custodial sentence is appropriate, possibly suspended depending on mitigating factors.

    Sure, but what I'm trying to work out is about the difference in the law on abortion in NI vs that in the south, and specifically whether someone who agrees with a custodial sentence for abortion (I've never actually met such a person before) would tend to lean more towards a very short suspended sentence just to make a point so to speak, or towards genuine punishment more like what one could expect for killing a person. And the thinking behind that.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #76
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Charged and convicted of it.

    She wasn't charged with killing a child because she didn't kill a child. She was charged with procurement of drugs to induce an abortion. The main body of the case was the use of drugs to induce it, if she had thrown herself down the stairs or used a non toxic method it probably would never have gone to court.


  • #77
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Appropriate for what reason?

    Because some people hold medieval concepts of morality.


  • #78
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Precious flower wrote: »
    I couldn't believe this when I read it. I naively didn't even believe that situations like this actually carried the possibility of sentencing. The poor woman was desperate by the looks of things. It made me angry to read it, knowing as well just how dangerous though pills can be for women, especially since they will have zero medical supervision after consuming them, as they can often have very serious side effects. Her punishment seems very harsh considering she was only 19 at the time. What do ye think? Was this an appropriate response by the courts?

    RTÉ:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0404/779444-abortion-pills-procuring-miscarriage/


    More information is given in the BBC Article: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-35962134

    Yes I think it's appropriate that courts uphold laws until those laws are changed by a Country's democratic process.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    Yeah it does so we can hardly judge NI when we have a similar attitude. I feel so sorry for this girl. This conviction will follow her around for the rest of her life.

    Unlike this even more backward little part of the Island thankfully the UK has spent convictions legislation like every other country in the EU bar one. Give you three guesses which one doesn't.


  • #79
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    volchitsa wrote: »
    She was 12 weeks pregnant. What methods of disposal of the fetus do you think are in place for someone who miscarries spontaneously at home at that stage?

    If you miscarried naturally you would go to the hospital for a scan and/or a d&c/ercp, bringing the foetus with you. You would then have the choice of taking the foetus home in a casket provided by the hospital and burying it somewhere like a family plot. Some hospitals have a small grave area where they can bury the foetus. Or the hospital can incinerate it. What most people choose, I suspect, depends on their feelings about the pregnancy.


  • #80
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Lot of rose tinted glasses on here.

    Some posts on here are so pro-abortion they will excuse any action or issue in support of that cause.

    Others are so anti-abortion they will condemn any woman who carries it out.


  • #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Charged with killing her child. and she was, convicted too.

    No she wasn't charged with killing a child.
    She was charged with procuring drugs to induce miscarriage.
    Abortion, up to a point, is legal in northern Ireland, & there is no law against going & getting an abortion.
    Same as here, no law against going & having an abortion somewhere else.
    Get your facts straight.


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  • #82
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Yes I think it's appropriate that courts uphold laws until those laws are changed by a Country's democratic process.



    Unlike this even more backward little part of the Island thankfully the UK has spent convictions legislation like every other country in the EU bar one. Give you three guesses which one doesn't.

    I think you haven't a clue tbh. Try living in a country where homosexuality or segregation is illegal. It's never good enough to uphold immoral laws.


  • #83
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    She wasn't charged with killing a child because she didn't kill a child. She was charged with procurement of drugs to induce an abortion. The main body of the case was the use of drugs to induce it, if she had thrown herself down the stairs or used a non toxic method it probably would never have gone to court.

    She was charged with procuring her own abortion, through the use of drugs. No matter the method employed, she should be held to account for her actions. It's hard to gauge an appropriate punishment, every case being different. At that stage, it's too late. The purpose of the law is to ban the practice. Anyone who circumvents that, doing something very dodgy and dangerous, needs mental help. I don't think punishment would work well as a deterrent.


  • #84
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I think you haven't a clue tbh. Try living in a country where homosexuality or segregation is illegal. It's never good enough to uphold immoral laws.

    What like Ireland within the last 40 years or so? (Also genuine question did you mean Surrogacy or legal segregation)

    Define an immoral law, is sex with a 16 year old immoral, what about a 14 year old? Your moral compass on that will likely be defined by the age of consent within your country. While certain laws do need to be challenged, such as the 'Bourne Judgement' other laws need to change when the country is ready to do it democratically.

    I'm not sure procurement of drugs is going to change anytime soon North or South.

    Unfortunately people like yourself that can't sit down and work it through logically exist on both sides and are no help to the debate. All you do is create noise.


  • #85
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I'm actually not sure which, or who is worse - the housemates that reported the woman a week later for having induced an abortion, or the clinic that "advised" (and I use that term loosely) her on where to get the pills over the internet to induce an abortion without any kind of medical supervision and support. The actions of whoever advised her were irresponsible, and the actions of her housemates were reprehensible.

    I do hope for this woman's sake that she is able to rebuild her life and her anonymity is respected and protected, rather than leaked on social media.


  • #86
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    thee glitz wrote: »
    She was charged with procuring her own abortion, through the use of drugs. No matter the method employed, she should be held to account for her actions. It's hard to gauge an appropriate punishment, every case being different. At that stage, it's too late. The purpose of the law is to ban the practice. Anyone who circumvents that, doing something very dodgy and dangerous, needs mental help. I don't think punishment would work well as a deterrent.

    You will never stop abortion. It's always been there and always will. It's pointless to scare women who take desperate measures simply because they lack the money to exercise their constitutional right elsewhere. What is the difference really between having an abortion in a clinic and one at home? Why does one woman have a constitutional right to obtain that abortion but the second one is prosecuted? It makes no sense.


  • #87
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    eviltwin wrote: »
    You will never stop abortion. It's always been there and always will. It's pointless to scare women who take desperate measures simply because they lack the money to exercise their constitutional right elsewhere. What is the difference really between having an abortion in a clinic and one at home? Why does one woman have a constitutional right to obtain that abortion but the second one is prosecuted? It makes no sense.

    What Constitutional right are you referring to?


  • #88
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    What Constitutional right are you referring to?

    The right to travel


  • #89
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    eviltwin wrote: »
    The right to travel

    Firstly I don't think that was ever at issue, secondly I'm not sure the UK has such a right.


  • #90
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well it was NI and there's a good chance that her housemates were religious nuts.

    First of all I think the fact that they called the police on this girl in a country where abortion is illegal makes them c&nts. I don't think they thought they were acting in her best interest. They also mention the girl's blase attitude to the abortion. She was trying to save the money to go to England, she couldn't and she bought pills online for a late termination. The girl was likely in shock or traumatised.

    She was desperate and as a reward he "friends" rang the police on her which led to her prosecution.

    I always am fascinated by people who say you can't pick and choose the laws you obey. I lived in East Africa and some other countries where homosexuality was illegal. In our country homosexuality was illegal. Not too long ago segregation was legal. As a law it was meant to discriminate and oppress. Just like this law did to a young desperate girl in trouble. So you'll excuse me when I say I'll do my utmost to pick and choose what is moral and what is not.

    Is abortion illegal in NI? I thought it was legal across all the UK, just that there aren't any clinics there? My understanding is that she isn't being arrested over the abortion itself, but over the means and the procurement of those means.

    Regardless of whether it is or not, she shouldn't be treated like a criminal. I know of some people who had to travel to the UK to receive an abortion due to medical reasons, but couldn't get one here, and others for similar reasons, but were lucky enough to be in a country where it was legal.

    Wasn't there a story a few years back about a then-teenager who was pregnant, discovered that due to an abnormality of some sort was going to give birth to an essentially brain dead baby that wouldn't survive outside of the womb, was going to go to England to terminate it with her family, but was stopped from travelling by the authorities? Absolutely horrendous.

    Abortion debate aside, nobody should be forced to go through that.


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  • #91
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    iguana wrote: »
    If you miscarried naturally you would go to the hospital for a scan and/or a d&c/ercp, bringing the foetus with you. You would then have the choice of taking the foetus home in a casket provided by the hospital and burying it somewhere like a family plot. Some hospitals have a small grave area where they can bury the foetus. Or the hospital can incinerate it. What most people choose, I suspect, depends on their feelings about the pregnancy.

    That's if you miscarry at the hospital. In reality at three months, it's perfectly possible to miscarry at home, and it certainly used not to be the case that the hospital would necessarily take charge of the fetus if it had been miscarried elsewhere unless they wanted to test it, which would be unusual. That may have changed now, I don't know and perhaps they do take charge of it. There was a story recently about UK hospitals incinerating aborted and miscarried fetuses to generate heat in recycling systems so that would be an incitement I imagine.

    But the point is that if I don't know, neither, probably, would a 19 year old who'd just had an illegal abortion and who didn't know what to do with the fetus. Something had to be done with it after all. Putting it in a bin bag and then into a bin is not that odd a decision, surely?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



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