NI Woman Gets Suspended Sentence for Using Abortion Pills

Precious flower

I couldn't believe this when I read it. I naively didn't even believe that situations like this actually carried the possibility of sentencing. The poor woman was desperate by the looks of things. It made me angry to read it, knowing as well just how dangerous though pills can be for women, especially since they will have zero medical supervision after consuming them, as they can often have very serious side effects. Her punishment seems very harsh considering she was only 19 at the time. What do ye think? Was this an appropriate response by the courts?

RTÉ:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0404/779444-abortion-pills-procuring-miscarriage/

The male foetus, which was between 10 and 12 weeks old, was later found in the bin of a house she shared with two other people.

In court she pleaded guilty to two charges - namely procuring her own abortion by using a poison, and of supplying a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage.

Imposing a three-month sentence suspended for two years the judge spoke of the potential dangers of taking the drugs which are readily available on the internet but which should only ever be taken under medical supervision.

More information is given in the BBC Article: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-35962134

A prosecution lawyer told the court that when the woman moved into the house in May 2014, she told her two housemates that she was pregnant but that she was trying to raise the money to travel to England for a termination.
However, after she was unable to raise enough money, she contacted an abortion clinic in England for advice.

She claims that she was told by the clinic about two drugs that were available on the internet and which would induce a miscarriage.
When she was arrested, the then 19-year old made no comment in police interviews.

Before passing sentence, the judge said there were no guidelines or similar cases to compare this to, adding in his experience there have been no other prosecutions under this specific piece of legislation - namely Section 58 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.
He said the legislation was 150 years old and had been substantially amended in England, Scotland and Wales but not in Northern Ireland.

Nosy flipping housemates should've minded their own business.

Stheno

I think the same offence carries a sentence of up to14 years here, could be wrong though

eviltwin

Stheno wrote: »

I think the same offence carries a sentence of up to14 years here, could be wrong though

Yeah it does so we can hardly judge NI when we have a similar attitude. I feel so sorry for this girl. This conviction will follow her around for the rest of her life.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Nosy flipping housemates should've minded their own business.

If I had found a foetus in a bin, I probably would have reported it too. This is completely beyond the issue here, but you can understand why they did.

It seems odd that an abortion clinic informed her to do it. Was there any mention to her about having medical personnel present?

Precious flower

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah it does so we can hardly judge NI when we have a similar attitude. I feel so sorry for this girl. This conviction will follow her around for the rest of her life.

Really 14 years!? That's insanity!:eek: Oh I'm not judging NI, I think the rest of Ireland is just as bad. It's just the first case I've seen where someone has actually been sentenced. Pretty bad for her housemates to report her most likely knowing what would happen.

Precious flower

Deleted User wrote: »

If I had found a foetus in a bin, I probably would have reported it too. This is completely beyond the issue here, but you can understand why they did.

She had told her housemates though that she wanted to have an abortion but couldn't save up the money. They would have put two and two together, though throwing it in the bin was not the best course of action she was probably panicked at the time.

It seems odd that an abortion clinic informed her to do it. Was there any mention to her about having medical personnel present?

Seems from the article it was an abortion clinic online she got the information from, so that sounds shady enough. Any decent place would not suggest taking pills like that even in dire situations.

The_Valeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If I had found a foetus in a bin, I probably would have reported it too. This is completely beyond the issue here, but you can understand why they did.

Yeah I'd be the same. Not something you come across every day. Bizzare find. I'm sure whoever found it was shocked by it.

January

Deleted User wrote: »

If I had found a foetus in a bin, I probably would have reported it too. This is completely beyond the issue here, but you can understand why they did.

It seems odd that an abortion clinic informed her to do it. Was there any mention to her about having medical personnel present?

Would never have found a doctor/nurse to witness it because they'd have been leaving them wide open to prosecution themselves.

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

If I had found a foetus in a bin, I probably would have reported it too. This is completely beyond the issue here, but you can understand why they did.

It seems odd that an abortion clinic informed her to do it. Was there any mention to her about having medical personnel present?

Calling the police would be the last thing I would do. Even if you didn't know about her wanting an abortion surely your first thought would be miscarriage. She did nothing wrong, she isn't a criminal but because she lives in a backward hole she now has this conviction against her for the rest of her life.

Precious flower

And the courts response isn't going to stop cases like this happening if there are women out there desperate enough. I honestly can't comprehend the reasoning behind keeping this law, it's making the situation so much worse. It doesn't stop abortions it just strives women to go to desperate measures to get one. Honestly it's frightening in this day and age to have laws like this.

We don't exactly know how the bin was found. Imagine if it was a refuse bin outside, a wheelie bin. You open up, see a foetus, but might not know where it came from, and call the police. You assume your first thought would be, "oh i know where it came from", but mine would be, "there's a foetus here, better call the police".

This is all assumptions and hypothetical, because I don't know all the facts, but, personally speaking, if I had found a foetus in a bin, I would report it.

It's an unfortunate circumstance for the poor girl and a sign of issues within the law.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Calling the police would be the last thing I would do. Even if you didn't know about her wanting an abortion surely your first thought would be miscarriage. She did nothing wrong, she isn't a criminal but because she lives in a backward hole she now has this conviction against her for the rest of her life.

I'd report it because to me it would indicate either an abortion or a miscarriage without any medical supervision, I'd be worried about the state of the woman, worried she was bleeding or alone and unable to reach out for help.

I think most people who find a foetus in (say) a wheelie bin would be the same.

thee glitz

She broke the law and got a suspended sentence. People have spent time in jail for less.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

What about all the self induced miscarriages following old wives tales, ridiculous potions you make up, drinking, doing absolutely everything anti pregnancy you can think of to bring on a miscarriage. Is that open to the same punishment?

What about the women who have a miscarriage naturally and flush the foetus down the toilet? What do you do in that situation?

Her housemates are clearly very nasty. You'd think the poor girl was traumatised enough

eviltwin

Candie wrote: »

I'd report it because to me it would indicate either an abortion or a miscarriage without any medical supervision, I'd be worried about the state of the woman, worried she was bleeding or alone and unable to reach out for help.

I think most people who find a foetus in (say) a wheelie bin would be the same.

Why would you report it to the police? I'd bring her to a well woman clinic or Stopes. Heaping more trauma onto her would be the last thing I'd do.

thee glitz

LexieOnRale wrote: »

What about all the self induced miscarriages following old wives tales, ridiculous potions you make up, drinking, doing absolutely everything anti pregnancy you can think of to bring on a miscarriage. Is that open to the same punishment?

I'd imagine so.

Precious flower

eviltwin wrote: »

Why would you report it to the police? I'd bring her to a well woman clinic or Stopes. Heaping more trauma onto her would be the last thing I'd do.

They most likely know it was there housemate if she had intimated her desire to terminate the pregnancy prior to that. Most likely the bin was just their own, if the housemates found it. The girls would be well aware of the negative response from the authorities and would have thought twice about reporting it.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Why would you report it to the police? I'd bring her to a well woman clinic or Stopes. Heaping more trauma onto her would be the last thing I'd do.

Assuming you don't know where it came from there could be someone somewhere in a horrible position and in dire need of medical help. I would feel morally obliged to report it to the police to help track down the woman.

Again this is all assumptions because I don't know. I don't think any of us do for sure?

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

Assuming you don't know where it came from there could be someone somewhere in a horrible position and in dire need of medical help. I would feel morally obliged to report it to the police to help track down the woman.

Again this is all assumptions because I don't know. I don't think any of us do for sure?

She had told them she was pregnant, it's not rocket science that if you find a foetus then you ask your pregnant housemate what happened. Of course she needs medical attention so you bring her to someone who can give that. Phoning the cops isn't helping her.

steddyeddy

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah it does so we can hardly judge NI when we have a similar attitude. I feel so sorry for this girl. This conviction will follow her around for the rest of her life.

Tell me you're joking?

Precious flower

steddyeddy wrote: »

Tell me you're joking?

Somehow I don't think this is a topic for joking? I can't quite see what you find humorous about her comment.

eviltwin

steddyeddy wrote: »

Tell me you're joking?

Joking about what

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Whats the cops going to do for a woman who's just lost her baby? Bring her into the EPU in the local garda station, and scan her to make sure? Organise a D and C in one of the interview rooms??

steddyeddy

Precious flower wrote: »

Somehow I don't think this is a topic for joking? I can't quite see what you find humorous about her comment.

I meant I hope this conviction won't follow her around.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

Precious flower

steddyeddy wrote: »

I meant I hope this conviction won't follow her around.

Sorry I almost wouldn't be surprised if it did.

thee glitz

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Whats the cops going to do for a woman who's just lost her baby?

Probably put out an alert, help her find it. Unless she's suffered a miscarriage - then they'd direct her towards appropriate medical and psychological care.

eviltwin

steddyeddy wrote: »

I meant I hope this conviction won't follow her around.

She's been convicted so like any conviction it's going to show up on a background check.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

thee glitz wrote: »

Probably put out an alert, help her find it. Unless she's suffered a miscarriage - then they'd direct her towards appropriate medical and psychological care.

As opposed to bringing her directly to the hospital?

The housemates knew exactly what happened.
She told them of her pregnancy & that she was finding it hard to get the money to go to England.
One of them described it as a ' wee baby' in court.
Seemed to me that they were judging her & were making sure she paid.

bridgettedon

I thought abortion was legal in Northern Ireland. I thought abortion pills were allowed within a certain time frame or did I imagine reading that.

eviltwin

bridgettedon wrote: »

I thought abortion was legal in Northern Ireland. I thought abortion pills were allowed within a certain time frame or did I imagine reading that.

Up to nine weeks but it's not free.

thee glitz

LexieOnRale wrote: »

As opposed to bringing her directly to the hospital?

If it was a medical emergency, I'd hope they would.

c_meth

It was an illegal act by definition of the law. You can't pick or choose which laws you agree with.

You can try to change the law.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Why would you report it to the police? I'd bring her to a well woman clinic or Stopes. Heaping more trauma onto her would be the last thing I'd do.

Not long ago there was a thread here about a young girl dying after giving birth alone in a churchyard somewhere in Ireland. I know this isn't the same but it could have ended up with a dead girl. If I ignored the evidence of a home abortion or miscarriage and some young girl had bled to death, I'd never be able to live with myself.

I'd rather report it to the police than have a victim of a backstreet abortion (for all I knew) dead.

ETA: I said I'd alert the cops if I found a foetus in a bin. Her flatmates obviously knew she was ok, which is a totally different scenario.

SEPT 23 1989

Leaving it in the bin probably didn't help her case

Candie

Candie wrote: »

Not long ago there was a thread here about a young girl dying after giving birth alone in a churchyard somewhere in Ireland. I know this isn't the same but it could have ended up with a dead girl. If I ignored the evidence of a home abortion or miscarriage and some young girl had bled to death, I'd never be able to live with myself.

I'd rather report it to the police than have a victim of a backstreet abortion (for all I knew) dead.

ETA: I said I'd alert the cops if I found a foetus in a bin. Her flatmates obviously knew she was ok, which is a totally different scenario.

If you knew your housemate was pregnant, the only pregnant woman in the house, would you call the police or would you make sure she was OK?

You edited while I was typing! If the housemates knew she was OK ( & we don't actually know this ) then they clearly judged her, decided they would call the police to get her punished.

How many women do this in NI or this country & no one knows about it?

Neyite

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Whats the cops going to do for a woman who's just lost her baby? Bring her into the EPU in the local garda station, and scan her to make sure? Organise a D and C in one of the interview rooms??

One of the South American countries (possibly Columbia?) prosecute and jail women who miscarry, they are so anti-abortion. All women who lose a pregnancy are suspect.

And when they estimate that 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage in the first trimester, thats a lot of women.

Add in to the mix, that doctors really don't know what causes miscarriage. Often tissue testing comes back with no cause of miscarriage. So how can you prove you lost a pregnancy naturally?

Did I mention that contraception is also hard to come by in that country?

Barbaric. As is this case. I can imagine that it must have been a shock to the person who discovered the foetus but this conviction is not right. It's not how we should treat a traumatised woman.

eviltwin

Candie wrote: »

Not long ago there was a thread here about a young girl dying after giving birth alone in a churchyard somewhere in Ireland. I know this isn't the same but it could have ended up with a dead girl. If I ignored the evidence of a home abortion or miscarriage and some young girl had bled to death, I'd never be able to live with myself.

I'd rather report it to the police than have a victim of a backstreet abortion (for all I knew) dead.

ETA: I said I'd alert the cops if I found a foetus in a bin. Her flatmates obviously knew she was ok, which is a totally different scenario.

They would have known it was her foetus. If they were genuinely concerned the place to bring her to is a medical professional. The police are the last people I would call. The deed had been done so there was no point in calling them other than to get her in a heap of trouble and I think she had suffered enough at that point.

LDN_Irish

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-woman-who-bought-drugs-on-internet-to-induce-miscarriage-given-suspended-prison-sentence-34597487.html

Says in this article that they rang police a week after finding it and did it partly due to the woman's "blasé attitude." If that's true then their behaviour is abhorrent.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

If you knew your housemate was pregnant, the only pregnant woman in the house, would you call the police or would you make sure she was OK?

Yes, that's not what my first post was responding to. It was ONLY in the case of finding a foetus in a bin. In that case I would be concerned that someone needed urgent medical attention. For all I knew a 12 year old may have miscarried/aborted.

In this case, IF I was a flatmate, I would make sure she was alright and encourage her to visit a doc to make sure of it.

I'm not a monster who wants to ruin a girls life, but if I found evidence of a medical situation gone wrong - as a foetus in bin would appear to be - then I'd be extremely concerned for the health and safety of the woman.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

They would have known it was her foetus. If they were genuinely concerned the place to bring her to is a medical professional. The police are the last people I would call. The deed had been done so there was no point in calling them other than to get her in a heap of trouble and I think she had suffered enough at that point.

AGAIN, the post was referring to a foetus found in a bin. As I made clear in my post.

Not her flatmates alerting the cops, not me doing the same in a hypothetical situation. I don't know how anyone could interpret that as me wanting to heap trauma on anyone FFS. It's very annoying to have to answer for something you never said.

IF I found a foetus in a bin, and didn't know the mother, I would alert the authorities in case there was a medical emergency.

Most decent people would, I hope.

Precious flower

c_meth wrote: »

It was an illegal act by definition of the law. You can't pick or choose which laws you agree with.

You can try to change the law.

Yet we did there were archaic laws up until recently that we choose to ignore because we knew they were backward and seemed silly to us.

eviltwin

c_meth wrote: »

It was an illegal act by definition of the law. You can't pick or choose which laws you agree with.

You can try to change the law.

Context is everything. This law, the version we have anyway, was meant to prosecute those people who would carry out back street abortions and profit from them. It's not really aimed at making criminals out of desperate women. There should be some degree of discretion in cases like this. This woman is not a danger to society, she's been through enough. It should never have even gotten to court.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

LDN_Irish wrote: »

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-woman-who-bought-drugs-on-internet-to-induce-miscarriage-given-suspended-prison-sentence-34597487.html

Says in this article that they rang police a week after finding it and did it partly due to the woman's "blasé attitude." If that's true then their behaviour is abhorrent.

Pretty typical attitude around here, and presumably in the North as well. "if you feel really really badly about this abortion and wouldn't ever have one under normal circumstances, then maybe you're a good enough girl to be allowed one, if you're all slutty and blasé then fcuk you, have a kid or a conviction"

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Hope her nasty housemates don't find the shoe on the other foot in years to come.

mansize

Precious flower wrote: »

Yet we did there were archaic laws up until recently that we choose to ignore because we knew they were backward and seemed silly to us.

So archaic we brought in a law with similar punishment last year! And people smirk at Trump!

thee glitz

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Hope her nasty housemates don't find the shoe on the other foot in years to come.

Do you really hope they don't. Or that they do. Or that maybe they wouldn't do the same thing in a similar position?

steddyeddy

Well it was NI and there's a good chance that her housemates were religious nuts.

First of all I think the fact that they called the police on this girl in a country where abortion is illegal makes them c&nts. I don't think they thought they were acting in her best interest. They also mention the girl's blase attitude to the abortion. She was trying to save the money to go to England, she couldn't and she bought pills online for a late termination. The girl was likely in shock or traumatised.

She was desperate and as a reward he "friends" rang the police on her which led to her prosecution.

I always am fascinated by people who say you can't pick and choose the laws you obey. I lived in East Africa and some other countries where homosexuality was illegal. In our country homosexuality was illegal. Not too long ago segregation was legal. As a law it was meant to discriminate and oppress. Just like this law did to a young desperate girl in trouble. So you'll excuse me when I say I'll do my utmost to pick and choose what is moral and what is not.

steddyeddy

thee glitz wrote: »

Do you really hope they don't. Or that they do. Or that maybe they wouldn't do the same thing in a similar position?

I'll be honest I hope the sub human animals find themselves doing a lot worse.