League Structure needs to change

Very hard to disagree, especially after today!

Agree totally with the OP. You really would have to wonder what the minions in Croke Park/Central Council are doing coming up with with a scheme that defies logic.

Interesting that no-one created a thread about this before today's result.

The time for conversations like this isn't today. Everyone knew the rules at the start of the season and abided by them. Congress was only a few weeks ago. Were there any motions to change the format of the league?? Instead of starting a thread on boards somebody could have brought a motion to their club AGM and onto county convention etc.

Each of the six teams knew that the two worst teams would play off against each other to see who goes down. Galway only won one game so they're not streets ahead of Cork like the stat of Cork losing all their games suggests. If they were they would have won today and nobody would be talking about the fairness of the format.

I think in a 6 team league where teams could be so close with so few games a play-off is necessary. Remember the idea is that this is the 6 best teams in the country, the elite and I'd have to check but i'd imagine a team losing their 5 games is an anomaly over recent years. The idea isn't that the 6th best team will have a bad year and go down and get replaced by another bad team who go down the following year.

As you can see from the results Clare and Limerick have achieved this weekend 1B isn't far behind. Wexford also ran Waterford close and well the less said about Offaly the better

howiya wrote: »

Interesting that no-one created a thread about this before today's result.

The time for conversations like this isn't today. Everyone knew the rules at the start of the season and abided by them. Congress was only a few weeks ago. Were there any motions to change the format of the league?? Instead of starting a thread on boards somebody could have brought a motion to their club AGM and onto county convention etc.

Each of the six teams knew that the two worst teams would play off against each other to see who goes down. Galway only won one game so they're not streets ahead of Cork like the stat of Cork losing all their games suggests. If they were they would have won today and nobody would be talking about the fairness of the format.

I think in a 6 team league where teams could be so close with so few games a play-off is necessary. Remember the idea is that this is the 6 best teams in the country, the elite and I'd have to check but i'd imagine a team losing their 5 games is an anomaly over recent years. The idea isn't that the 6th best team will have a bad year and go down and get replaced by another bad team who go down the following year.

As you can see from the results Clare and Limerick have achieved this weekend 1B isn't far behind. Wexford also ran Waterford close and well the less said about Offaly the better

Fairly sure there was talk in some thread before today, can't find which one now though. Not in a stand-alone thread though.

Yes, everyone knew the rules, so they can't change. Yes Galway weren't great. But Cork should be relegated automatically, then maybe should have a 2nd last 1A v 2nd in 1B, so Galway v Limerick to play, Thats the problem most appear to have I see.

Mushy wrote: »

Fairly sure there was talk in some thread before today, can't find which one now though. Not in a stand-alone thread though.

Yes, everyone knew the rules, so they can't change. Yes Galway weren't great. But Cork should be relegated automatically, then maybe should have a 2nd last 1A v 2nd in 1B, so Galway v Limerick to play, Thats the problem most appear to have I see.

So when do you decide relegation? See if the bottom team lost all their games and say good luck? Two teams could potentially finish on four points and be the bottom two. A play-off is the fairest way

The system is a joke but sure everyone knows that. The best you can say is that everyone knows the rules beforehand not that it excuses a crazy system.

mountgomery burns wrote: »

And when three teams are level?

Would it be possible for 3 teams out of 6 to be level and finish bottom 3?

howiya wrote: »

So you'd potentially relegate a third of the league? Madness

Well the alternative could be just a straight relegation.

Mushy wrote: »

Well the alternative could be just a straight relegation.

I don't see the need for an alternative. People are only looking for an alternative coz Cork didn't win a game. There wasn't a clamour for change last year when Kilkenny (4 points) beat Clare (2 points) by a point in the relegation play-off. Or the year before when Dublin and Waterford both finished bottom on four points.

The whole idea behind the format is that it is extremely competitive and teams will take points off each other. The bottom team finishing with zero points is an anomaly and in this current format the only other team that have finished without a win are Dublin. They were relegated in 2012 after losing the play-off after extra time if I recall correctly

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Waterford beat Dublin and Galway two years ago who all then finished level on points. Dublin and Waterford ended up in the relegation final, Waterford lost.

Funnily enough, don't remember anyone saying the league was a farce then but maybe they were. I think its the best league structure weve had. Sure, the 8 team system gives more room for maneuver to experiment but it was tried and it was dull.

And this system prevents a team taking the piss out of the league like Cork did in 2009 and 2010 (if memory serves me right about the years of the strikes) and still maintain their status in the top division.

Sure take from the Ladies side of the game, toss a coin (joke!). I suppose points difference come into it should three teams finish level, would that be fairest?

Think the problem is just the relegation/promotion part, which only needs a slight tweak. OP made a good point about the 1B set up regarding Laois, its very poor. Imagine Limerick won the league, it would make a mockery of it (AFAIR Waterford at least got promoted when they won the league).

howiya wrote: »

I don't see the need for an alternative. People are only looking for an alternative coz Cork didn't win a game. There wasn't a clamour for change last year when Kilkenny (4 points) beat Clare (2 points) by a point in the relegation play-off. Or the year before when Dublin and Waterford both finished bottom on four points.

The whole idea behind the format is that it is extremely competitive and teams will take points off each other. The bottom team finishing with zero points is an anomaly and in this current format the only other team that have finished without a win are Dublin. They were relegated in 2012 after losing the play-off after extra time if I recall correctly

I feel the second bolded part is the reason for the first part, in that there won't be a clamour when its not as clearcut. Fair enough you can't just decide after the regular campaign about which method, that'd be a joke. But calls for just a straight-forward relegation isn't too much to ask for.

Mushy wrote: »

I feel the second bolded part is the reason for the first part, in that there won't be a clamour when its not as clearcut. Fair enough you can't just decide after the regular campaign about which method, that'd be a joke. But calls for just a straight-forward relegation isn't too much to ask for.

Obviously its not too much to ask for. If you don't ask you don't get but in a 5 game round robin between the best 6 teams in the country that should all be taking points off each other a play-off at the end between the two lowest teams is the fairest way. How can you argue that straight relegation would be fairer?

Mushy wrote: »

Probably cos in the case of this year (albeit at its most extreme), its quite unfair on Galway to go down. Yes they knew the scenario beforehand so can't complain on that front, but it can be used to push change. I guess both ways will have their drawbacks, not everybody will be happy.

The point regarding 1B relegation being a joke still stands though.

I agree on 1B relegation. Losers of the play-off should go down without having a second chance against Westmeath.

Dick phelan wrote: »

Does anyone else agree the league structure in hurling needs to change? Congrats to Cork today but honestly it's a complete joke you can loose all 5 matches and still stay up, there should be no playoff if your bottom you go down this brings me on to the second major problem with the system, Laois lost to Kerry last night and should be going down yet they have yet another chance at staying in 1B if they beat Westmeath who by rights ought to have been promoted at the expense of Laois. The system needs to change, it's loaded in the favor of the major hurling counties giving them chances they don't deserve.

I wouldn't be in favour of getting rid of the relegation play offs altogether because I think they add a bit of excitement and there'd be a lot more dead rubbers without them

I think a system where if the bottom side finishes winless there's no play off and they are automatically relegated would be much better.
I think hurling has to have relegation play offs because there can be a big gap between the divisions. At the end of the day we need the best sides in the top divisions.

It's also worth bearing in mind two sides could finish bottom on 2 points but the side with the better points difference will stay up. That side might be the one that parked the bus and tried to keep the score down against the big boys while the side that went for it against the big boys and took a tanking will be penalised.
Maybe a head to head system could solve that.

You'll never create a structure that satisfies everyone because the truth is every team wants to play the teams above them, but wants to leave the teams beneath them behind.

For example Clare + Limerick reckon that matches vs Laois and Offaly are pointless and that they deserve matches vs. Kilkenny and Tipp. Offaly and Wexford will want the same, but realistically would settle for matches vs Clare and Limerick. Kerry, Laois, Antrim all want to play Offaly and Wexford. Meath, Wicklow and Down want to be playing Kerry + Carlow and so on all the way down.

Since everyone wants the ladder to be pulled up beneath them, you always end up with several unhappy teams. Everybody's suggestion at reform generally involves expanding the division above to include their team, and cutting off the teams behind them.

In my opinion the current divisions are among the best competitions the GAA have ever run. Every match means something and you've a good spread of teams in each division without too many hammerings. The QFs and playoffs are a bit arbitrary but I don't have a huge issue with them.

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You'll never create a structure that satisfies everyone because the truth is every team wants to play the teams above them, but wants to leave the teams beneath them behind.

For example Clare + Limerick reckon that matches vs Laois and Offaly are pointless and that they deserve matches vs. Kilkenny and Tipp. Offaly and Wexford will want the same, but realistically would settle for matches vs Clare and Limerick. Kerry, Laois, Antrim all want to play Offaly and Wexford. Meath, Wicklow and Down want to be playing Kerry + Carlow and so on all the way down.

Since everyone wants the ladder to be pulled up beneath them, you always end up with several unhappy teams. Everybody's suggestion at reform generally involves expanding the division above to include their team, and cutting off the teams behind them.

In my opinion the current divisions are among the best competitions the GAA have ever run. Every match means something and you've a good spread of teams in each division without too many hammerings. The QFs and playoffs are a bit arbitrary but I don't have a huge issue with them.

Well said. Agree 100%

Laois could end up losing 6 games, yet still staying up. farcical.