League Structure needs to change

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

I feel the second bolded part is the reason for the first part, in that there won't be a clamour when its not as clearcut. Fair enough you can't just decide after the regular campaign about which method, that'd be a joke. But calls for just a straight-forward relegation isn't too much to ask for.

Obviously its not too much to ask for. If you don't ask you don't get but in a 5 game round robin between the best 6 teams in the country that should all be taking points off each other a play-off at the end between the two lowest teams is the fairest way. How can you argue that straight relegation would be fairer?

Borders no.2

From my viewpoint as a Galway supporter we won one game out of 6, we were terrible for most of the league and we were unable to beat Cork at home when it mattered. We deserved to be relegated. No complaints. The only thing I would say is there shouldn't be a toss for home advantage for the play off. As it happened we won the toss but the bottom team should always have to travel to give some benefit to the team who finished 5th.

On the other hand, Laois shouldn't have the play off to save themselves. It was good to see the progress they made the last couple of years but this year they've struggled and having lost 6 from 6 including twice to Kerry they deserved to go down.

Kerry got screwed over in a similar situation with the Offaly play off a couple of years back.

If you are poor during the league you have to pay the price.

armaghlad

howiya wrote: »

But every county (bar Kilkenny) plays football to an extent. Its easier to group teams of a similar standing when you've more teams. An eight team NFL Division 1 remains competitive because of the quality of the teams below it. Look at Roscommon coming up this year, Monaghan the year before. If you expanded division 1 into an 8 team division in the hurling it would just turn into a revolving door of Wexford and Offaly coming up and getting relegated every second year

How are they ever going to get better then, playing in the current structures? Sometimes times you need to learn how to lose before you learn how to win. I mean for Laois (or any county) to lose all their games and still possibly maintain Division 1 status is ridiculous.

Mushy

howiya wrote: »

Obviously its not too much to ask for. If you don't ask you don't get but in a 5 game round robin between the best 6 teams in the country that should all be taking points off each other a play-off at the end between the two lowest teams is the fairest way. How can you argue that straight relegation would be fairer?

Probably cos in the case of this year (albeit at its most extreme), its quite unfair on Galway to go down. Yes they knew the scenario beforehand so can't complain on that front, but it can be used to push change. I guess both ways will have their drawbacks, not everybody will be happy.

The point regarding 1B relegation being a joke still stands though.

Mehapoy

For me I think there are two major problems with the league as it is now, there aren't enough games in the regular round robin so they've put in play offs and the ridiculous quarter finals in order to provide more games, and promotion/ relegation is too tight between the divisions. I think teams like Offaly, Wexford and Limerick are being left behind to a certain extent as they never get to play the top teams, apart from the one off quarter finals...

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

How are they ever going to get better then, playing in the current structures? Sometimes times you need to learn how to lose before you learn how to win. I mean for Laois (or any county) to lose all their games and still possibly maintain Division 1 status is ridiculous.

I agree on the Division 1B relegation. If you lose your play-off you should be relegated to Division 2a. They shouldn't have a second chance against Westmeath.

Teams are getting better under the current structures. Wexford ran Waterford to a point. Kerry even though they finished second bottom won two games in Division 1b and ran Limerick close in another.

But if you create an 8 team division you will just create a revolving door where teams like Kerry will get hammered by the teams going up and the teams coming down from the top division. There isn't any room for improvement.

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

Probably cos in the case of this year (albeit at its most extreme), its quite unfair on Galway to go down. Yes they knew the scenario beforehand so can't complain on that front, but it can be used to push change. I guess both ways will have their drawbacks, not everybody will be happy.

The point regarding 1B relegation being a joke still stands though.

I agree on 1B relegation. Losers of the play-off should go down without having a second chance against Westmeath.

howiya

Mehapoy wrote: »

For me I think there are two major problems with the league as it is now, there aren't enough games in the regular round robin so they've put in play offs and the ridiculous quarter finals in order to provide more games, and promotion/ relegation is too tight between the divisions. I think teams like Offaly, Wexford and Limerick are being left behind to a certain extent as they never get to play the top teams, apart from the one off quarter finals...

Offaly are being left behind because they've done **** all at underage. Not sure how you can argue Limerick are being left behind. Granted they can't seem to get up to 1a but they're in a league semi final now, they've competed in two of the last three Munster finals winning one of them.

topmanamillion

Dick phelan wrote: »

Does anyone else agree the league structure in hurling needs to change? Congrats to Cork today but honestly it's a complete joke you can loose all 5 matches and still stay up, there should be no playoff if your bottom you go down this brings me on to the second major problem with the system, Laois lost to Kerry last night and should be going down yet they have yet another chance at staying in 1B if they beat Westmeath who by rights ought to have been promoted at the expense of Laois. The system needs to change, it's loaded in the favor of the major hurling counties giving them chances they don't deserve.

I wouldn't be in favour of getting rid of the relegation play offs altogether because I think they add a bit of excitement and there'd be a lot more dead rubbers without them

I think a system where if the bottom side finishes winless there's no play off and they are automatically relegated would be much better.
I think hurling has to have relegation play offs because there can be a big gap between the divisions. At the end of the day we need the best sides in the top divisions.

It's also worth bearing in mind two sides could finish bottom on 2 points but the side with the better points difference will stay up. That side might be the one that parked the bus and tried to keep the score down against the big boys while the side that went for it against the big boys and took a tanking will be penalised.
Maybe a head to head system could solve that.

armaghlad

howiya wrote: »

I agree on the Division 1B relegation. If you lose your play-off you should be relegated to Division 2a. They shouldn't have a second chance against Westmeath.

Teams are getting better under the current structures. Wexford ran Waterford to a point. Kerry even though they finished second bottom won two games in Division 1b and ran Limerick close in another.

But if you create an 8 team division you will just create a revolving door where teams like Kerry will get hammered by the teams going up and the teams coming down from the top division. There isn't any room for improvement.

Kerry are the only hurling team that to my mind have had any substantial improvement in recent years. Then again I'm not an expert, just giving my two shillings. Wexford for me were always a strong hurling county that are maybe just returning to where they should have always been anyway. I'm looking at this from the perspective of the Antrims, Carlows, Westmeaths, Laois etc. There's almost too much fluidity (imo) for teams to decline but little scope for moving up the ways.

O Riain

IIRC, On the first year of this set up, there was no relegation play off between the bottom two times.

That left Waterford, the 5th place team, with no games from March until the championship so they decided to change the format to include the bottom two teams in the relegation play off and for the losers to go straight down.

howiya

O Riain wrote: »

IIRC, On the first year of this set up, there was no relegation play off between the bottom two times.

That left Waterford, the 5th place team, with no games from March until the championship so they decided to change the format to include the bottom two teams in the relegation play off and for the losers to go straight down.

2012 was the first year and Galway and Dublin played in the relegation play-off. There was no quarter finals that year. First 3 and winner of 1B played in semi finals. Waterford finished 4th and had no further game.

CrabRevolution

You'll never create a structure that satisfies everyone because the truth is every team wants to play the teams above them, but wants to leave the teams beneath them behind.

For example Clare + Limerick reckon that matches vs Laois and Offaly are pointless and that they deserve matches vs. Kilkenny and Tipp. Offaly and Wexford will want the same, but realistically would settle for matches vs Clare and Limerick. Kerry, Laois, Antrim all want to play Offaly and Wexford. Meath, Wicklow and Down want to be playing Kerry + Carlow and so on all the way down.

Since everyone wants the ladder to be pulled up beneath them, you always end up with several unhappy teams. Everybody's suggestion at reform generally involves expanding the division above to include their team, and cutting off the teams behind them.

In my opinion the current divisions are among the best competitions the GAA have ever run. Every match means something and you've a good spread of teams in each division without too many hammerings. The QFs and playoffs are a bit arbitrary but I don't have a huge issue with them.

KevIRL

O Riain wrote: »

IIRC, On the first year of this set up, there was no relegation play off between the bottom two times.

That left Waterford, the 5th place team, with no games from March until the championship so they decided to change the format to include the bottom two teams in the relegation play off and for the losers to go straight down.

There was a play off but the team in 4th had no further games after the group stage, just like 2nd to 4th in 1B. Waterford finished in that 4th spot 2 years in a row. One of those years they went from mid march to the start of June with no competitive fixture.

IMO the numbers in the divisions are right, but they should scrap all playoffs and knock out games. Play it home and away like a normal league, each team gets 10 games, that's plenty. At the end of the league the top team wins the title, the bottom team (or maybe bottom 2) get relegated. Would be fair, but the GAA don't want to lose the big pay days of the knock out games.

Davys Fits

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You'll never create a structure that satisfies everyone because the truth is every team wants to play the teams above them, but wants to leave the teams beneath them behind.

For example Clare + Limerick reckon that matches vs Laois and Offaly are pointless and that they deserve matches vs. Kilkenny and Tipp. Offaly and Wexford will want the same, but realistically would settle for matches vs Clare and Limerick. Kerry, Laois, Antrim all want to play Offaly and Wexford. Meath, Wicklow and Down want to be playing Kerry + Carlow and so on all the way down.

Since everyone wants the ladder to be pulled up beneath them, you always end up with several unhappy teams. Everybody's suggestion at reform generally involves expanding the division above to include their team, and cutting off the teams behind them.

In my opinion the current divisions are among the best competitions the GAA have ever run. Every match means something and you've a good spread of teams in each division without too many hammerings. The QFs and playoffs are a bit arbitrary but I don't have a huge issue with them.

Well said. Agree 100%

K-9

Mehapoy wrote: »

For me I think there are two major problems with the league as it is now, there aren't enough games in the regular round robin so they've put in play offs and the ridiculous quarter finals in order to provide more games, and promotion/ relegation is too tight between the divisions. I think teams like Offaly, Wexford and Limerick are being left behind to a certain extent as they never get to play the top teams, apart from the one off quarter finals...

The alternative is the old Division 1 and 2 which would probably leave Offaly and Wexford yo yoing between the 2 and leave a very boring Division 2, with everybody knowing who'd get promoted every year.

The problem, as it always is, there are only 8-9 top class teams at any time. A Division containing 8 of those makes it boring and pointless.

The current structure is fairest but could do with tinkering. The bottom 2 in 1A and the top 2 in 1B going into a play off might be better.

nice_guy80

armaghlad wrote: »

Kerry are the only hurling team that to my mind have had any substantial improvement in recent years. Then again I'm not an expert, just giving my two shillings. Wexford for me were always a strong hurling county that are maybe just returning to where they should have always been anyway. I'm looking at this from the perspective of the Antrims, Carlows, Westmeaths, Laois etc. There's almost too much fluidity (imo) for teams to decline but little scope for moving up the ways.

Westmeath, Carlow, Laois didn't get two Clare players to play with them though.

mountgomery burns

You can't blame the league for a team like Offaly being cat. That's a bit too convenient.

homerjay2005

Laois could end up losing 6 games, yet still staying up. farcical.

K-9

The argument for the lower divisions is it gives the likes of Laois a chance to stabilise in 1B and compete there. Playing Kildare or London again isn't much use to them if they want to try and match Offaly or Wexford. Westmeath can still beat them. There's probably 6 or 7 different standards and groupings of counties which makes it difficult to organise. The problem is bridging the gap between them.

munchkin_utd

the current system is there for a reason.

Davy fitz is humped because they were in Div1B, but thats fine. Its not his job to care about the state of hurling or look at the bigger picture.
He doesnt care about getting the likes of Kerry, or possibly another 2A team like Westmeath (if they win the playoff), playing competitively.

And still, look at the current system that he finds wrong. Clare had a tense and competitive competition with Tipp in the div1 Quarter final, at home, and won it.
Now they have a winner takes all semi against Kilkenny and then if they win that a final.

He complains that theres a lack of competitive hurling against top teams, but 2 knock out cup games against Tipp and then KK (before the title decider itsself against winners of Waterford or Limerick) is not my definition of lack of competitive action.

a few tweaks could be introduced, but until the 2nd tier is able to sustain more teams, neither is the first tier

blue note

KevIRL wrote: »

There was a play off but the team in 4th had no further games after the group stage, just like 2nd to 4th in 1B. Waterford finished in that 4th spot 2 years in a row. One of those years they went from mid march to the start of June with no competitive fixture.

IMO the numbers in the divisions are right, but they should scrap all playoffs and knock out games. Play it home and away like a normal league, each team gets 10 games, that's plenty. At the end of the league the top team wins the title, the bottom team (or maybe bottom 2) get relegated. Would be fair, but the GAA don't want to lose the big pay days of the knock out games.

Currently in division 1 there's 30 group games, 3 relegation play off games, 4 quarters, 2 semis and a final. A total of 39 games. What you're proposing would have an additional 21 games. I think they'd be worth more than the knockout games!

jacool

The most logical solution to resolve the farcical situation is to say – a relegation play-off is only required if the bottom team could match, or overhaul, the second bottom team if they won such a play-off.
Cork would therefore have to have been within 2 points of Galway to earn a play-off.
Everyone keeps saying that Galway only won once, but why not say, Galway only lost twice, as against Cork’s losing 5 games!
The reality is that the rules were set and you have to abide by them, but clearly the rules should be modified.

Christy Browne

I think the play off's are just another way of giving a team an extra competitive game, it's only the league at the end of the day and Galway going down to 1B won't be the end of the world for them. I think the structure is fine the way it is.

The only thing I'd change is the winners of 2A having to play the "relegated" team in 1B. If you top your division you should go up, end of story.

Wolfhillbilly

K-9 wrote: »

The alternative is the old Division 1 and 2 which would probably leave Offaly and Wexford yo yoing between the 2 and leave a very boring Division 2, with everybody knowing who'd get promoted every year.

The problem, as it always is, there are only 8-9 top class teams at any time. A Division containing 8 of those makes it boring and pointless.

The current structure is fairest but could do with tinkering. The bottom 2 in 1A and the top 2 in 1B going into a play off might be better.

The anomoly of the club championships also needs taken out of the equation. Is it fair that TJ Ryan had to play the entire campaign without his NA Piarsaigh players or Antrim without Cushendall? Most years Antrim are missing a number of players as they generally have provincial champions in two out of the three grades (not that that's the reason they're crap by the way!!), Galway the same. The Fitzgibon im sure hits some counties worse than others too.

iDave

Are Galway really relegated though. They can still be overall division 1 champs next year.

K-9

iDave wrote: »

Are Galway really relegated though. They can still be overall division 1 champs next year.

True in a way. It's a bit like the old football league Q/F's, teams from all divisions qualified for them. IIRC Laois won it in 85 and weren't in Division 1.

CrabRevolution

I don't understand why people complain about the 6th placed team getting a go against the 5th place team. Playoffs based on league position are incredibly popular in sport. You can finish 4th in the Pro12 and subsequently beat the other teams to become champion, but I've never hear anyone claim that that is illogical. Same with the championship playoffs in England. I've never heard anyone complaining when a 7th placed team beats the 3rd placed one to get promoted, even if there was a 15 point gap between them on the league table.

How is it any different for the 6th placed team to beat the 5th in hurling? They knew the rules before the competition started.

It's the same with complaints about being able to win division 1 while being in 1B. That's hardly unique either. You can win the Champions League (and even the world Club Cup) without even winning your own country's league.

The one complaint I do have is how random each league's promotion and relegation are. No division has the same procedures as another. If you top division 1B you're straight up, while if you top division 2A you've to win a further 2 games to go up. Finish bottom of division 1B and you get 2 more chances to survive, finish bottom of 2A and you're straight down. Is there a reason for this?

Davys Fits

Limerick have played in Div 1b for 6 years or so and didnt get promoted. Yet they could possibly play the following 'top' hurling teams in this years league. Clare, Wexford, Dublin, Waterford and Kilkenny. So what is wrong with that??

The Slobs

howiya wrote: »

Offaly are being left behind because they've done **** all at underage. Not sure how you can argue Limerick are being left behind. Granted they can't seem to get up to 1a but they're in a league semi final now, they've competed in two of the last three Munster finals winning one of them.

Offaly are a small county and a dual county at that and given their small hurling base so slagging of their under age success is a bit rich