League Structure needs to change

Dick phelan

Does anyone else agree the league structure in hurling needs to change? Congrats to Cork today but honestly it's a complete joke you can loose all 5 matches and still stay up, there should be no playoff if your bottom you go down this brings me on to the second major problem with the system, Laois lost to Kerry last night and should be going down yet they have yet another chance at staying in 1B if they beat Westmeath who by rights ought to have been promoted at the expense of Laois. The system needs to change, it's loaded in the favor of the major hurling counties giving them chances they don't deserve.

Mushy

Very hard to disagree, especially after today!

Rega

Dick phelan wrote: »

Does anyone else agree the league structure in hurling needs to change? Congrats to Cork today but honestly it's a complete joke you can loose all 5 matches and still stay up, there should be no playoff if your bottom you go down this brings me on to the second major problem with the system, Laois lost to Kerry last night and should be going down yet they have yet another chance at staying in 1B if they beat Westmeath who by rights ought to have been promoted at the expense of Laois. The system needs to change, it's loaded in the favor of the major hurling counties giving them chances they don't deserve.

Agree completely. Straight promotion and relegation is the fairest way.

And I'm from Cork!

redlead

Rega wrote: »

Agree completely. Straight promotion and relegation is the fairest way.

And I'm from Cork!

I wonder is today's result actually bad for cork. It's just going to cover up all the cracks.

PressRun

Can't disagree. Mind boggling what's happened.

Kristopherus

Agree totally with the OP. You really would have to wonder what the minions in Croke Park/Central Council are doing coming up with with a scheme that defies logic.

Diabhal Beag

Devil's advocate here but on the same hand Galway only won once this League campaign. That doesn't deserve automatic safety imo. I think the knockouts are a joke though. Limerick not getting promoted and still potentially winning the league is very wrong.

howiya

Interesting that no-one created a thread about this before today's result.

The time for conversations like this isn't today. Everyone knew the rules at the start of the season and abided by them. Congress was only a few weeks ago. Were there any motions to change the format of the league?? Instead of starting a thread on boards somebody could have brought a motion to their club AGM and onto county convention etc.

Each of the six teams knew that the two worst teams would play off against each other to see who goes down. Galway only won one game so they're not streets ahead of Cork like the stat of Cork losing all their games suggests. If they were they would have won today and nobody would be talking about the fairness of the format.

I think in a 6 team league where teams could be so close with so few games a play-off is necessary. Remember the idea is that this is the 6 best teams in the country, the elite and I'd have to check but i'd imagine a team losing their 5 games is an anomaly over recent years. The idea isn't that the 6th best team will have a bad year and go down and get replaced by another bad team who go down the following year.

As you can see from the results Clare and Limerick have achieved this weekend 1B isn't far behind. Wexford also ran Waterford close and well the less said about Offaly the better

mountgomery burns

If Galway deserved to stay in Division 1A thhey would have won today. They haven't won a game since the first day of the league. They were still at home today and playing the only side in 1A or 1B aside from Laois who had not one a single game, and Kerry had no problem accounting for them again.

They couldn't even beat a Waterford B team two weeks ago. I have no sympathy for them much like the way nobody would have any sympathy if Waterford had been beaten by Wexford today even though they technically finished 7 places ahead of them in the league. And rightly so, because if you lose thats is your fault. Not the league structures.


The only thing needs tweaking is that laois should be automatically in 2A now and Westmeath should not have to beat them.

Mushy

howiya wrote: »

Interesting that no-one created a thread about this before today's result.

The time for conversations like this isn't today. Everyone knew the rules at the start of the season and abided by them. Congress was only a few weeks ago. Were there any motions to change the format of the league?? Instead of starting a thread on boards somebody could have brought a motion to their club AGM and onto county convention etc.

Each of the six teams knew that the two worst teams would play off against each other to see who goes down. Galway only won one game so they're not streets ahead of Cork like the stat of Cork losing all their games suggests. If they were they would have won today and nobody would be talking about the fairness of the format.

I think in a 6 team league where teams could be so close with so few games a play-off is necessary. Remember the idea is that this is the 6 best teams in the country, the elite and I'd have to check but i'd imagine a team losing their 5 games is an anomaly over recent years. The idea isn't that the 6th best team will have a bad year and go down and get replaced by another bad team who go down the following year.

As you can see from the results Clare and Limerick have achieved this weekend 1B isn't far behind. Wexford also ran Waterford close and well the less said about Offaly the better

Fairly sure there was talk in some thread before today, can't find which one now though. Not in a stand-alone thread though.

Yes, everyone knew the rules, so they can't change. Yes Galway weren't great. But Cork should be relegated automatically, then maybe should have a 2nd last 1A v 2nd in 1B, so Galway v Limerick to play, Thats the problem most appear to have I see.

Nonoperational

Everyone knew the story. Galway one once, and had home advantage for the play off. Hardly a huge injustice.

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

Fairly sure there was talk in some thread before today, can't find which one now though. Not in a stand-alone thread though.

Yes, everyone knew the rules, so they can't change. Yes Galway weren't great. But Cork should be relegated automatically, then maybe should have a 2nd last 1A v 2nd in 1B, so Galway v Limerick to play, Thats the problem most appear to have I see.

So when do you decide relegation? See if the bottom team lost all their games and say good luck? Two teams could potentially finish on four points and be the bottom two. A play-off is the fairest way

Mushy

howiya wrote: »

So when do you decide relegation? See if the bottom team lost all their games and say good luck? Two teams could potentially finish on four points and be the bottom two. A play-off is the fairest way

Before the season, bottom place go down automatically, second bottom go into playoff. If two teams are level on points and finish bottom two, then head to head comes into play!

Utopia Parkway

The system is a joke but sure everyone knows that. The best you can say is that everyone knows the rules beforehand not that it excuses a crazy system.

Danville

I think some people are missing an important point. Because of the present format(bottoms two playing a relegation match), all games in the league itself are highly competitive, as not only are teams trying to avoid last place but are trying to avoid second-last place as well. So this year for example, were the last team to suffer straight relegation, once Cork had lost their third match, everyone else would only go through the motions for the last two games of the league. No competitiveness , no excitement.
The league as presently structured is competitive and exciting throughout all rounds,which is what the public want after all.
However I do accept that the bottom team in 1b should not have two chances to stay up.

mountgomery burns

Mushy wrote: »

Before the season, bottom place go down automatically, second bottom go into playoff. If two teams are level on points and finish bottom two, then head to head comes into play!

And when three teams are level?

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

Before the season, bottom place go down automatically, second bottom go into playoff. If two teams are level on points and finish bottom two, then head to head comes into play!

So you'd potentially relegate a third of the league? Madness

armaghlad

Should restructure completely. Merge the divisions and do away with these league qfs. Who ever comes top wins the league. Second promoted. Bottom two relegated.

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

Should restructure completely. Merge the divisions and do away with these league qfs. Who ever comes top wins the league. Second promoted. Bottom two relegated.

And have to endure games like Kilkenny v Offaly every weekend of the league? No thanks

Mushy

mountgomery burns wrote: »

And when three teams are level?

Would it be possible for 3 teams out of 6 to be level and finish bottom 3?

howiya wrote: »

So you'd potentially relegate a third of the league? Madness

Well the alternative could be just a straight relegation.

armaghlad

howiya wrote: »

And have to endure games like Kilkenny v Offaly every weekend of the league? No thanks

Let me elaborate - Div 1a as is plus top two from Div 1b.. so Division 1 to be:

Kilkenny
Waterford
Dublin
Tipperary
Galway
Cork
Clare
Limerick

Div 2
Wexford
Offaly
Kerry
Laois
Carlow
Westmeath
London
Antrim

Div 3
Kildare
Derry
Down
Armagh
Mayo
Meath
Wicklow
Donegal

Div 4
The rest

redlead

armaghlad wrote: »

Let me elaborate - Div 1a as is plus top two from Div 1b.. so Division 1 to be:

Kilkenny
Waterford
Dublin
Tipperary
Galway
Cork
Clare
Limerick

Div 2
Wexford
Offaly
Kerry
Laois
Carlow
Westmeath
London
Antrim

Div 3
Kildare
Derry
Down
Armagh
Mayo
Meath
Wicklow
Donegal

Div 4
The rest

No that's just an elitist structure. The current set up is fine so long as they get rid of the ludicrous promotion/relegation system. Bottom team should go down and top team should go up. Just have a league final then between the top two 1a teams

mountgomery burns

Mushy wrote: »

Would it be possible for 3 teams out of 6 to be level and finish bottom 3?



Well the alternative could be just a straight relegation.

Waterford beat Dublin and Galway two years ago who all then finished level on points. Dublin and Waterford ended up in the relegation final, Waterford lost.

Funnily enough, don't remember anyone saying the league was a farce then but maybe they were. I think its the best league structure weve had. Sure, the 8 team system gives more room for maneuver to experiment but it was tried and it was dull.

And this system prevents a team taking the piss out of the league like Cork did in 2009 and 2010 (if memory serves me right about the years of the strikes) and still maintain their status in the top division.

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

Well the alternative could be just a straight relegation.

I don't see the need for an alternative. People are only looking for an alternative coz Cork didn't win a game. There wasn't a clamour for change last year when Kilkenny (4 points) beat Clare (2 points) by a point in the relegation play-off. Or the year before when Dublin and Waterford both finished bottom on four points.

The whole idea behind the format is that it is extremely competitive and teams will take points off each other. The bottom team finishing with zero points is an anomaly and in this current format the only other team that have finished without a win are Dublin. They were relegated in 2012 after losing the play-off after extra time if I recall correctly

armaghlad

redlead wrote: »

No that's just an elitist structure. The current set up is fine so long as they get rid of the ludicrous promotion/relegation system. Bottom team should go down and top team should go up. Just have a league final then between the top two 1a teams

Well you could argue the current set up is elitist as it is now. At least with my suggestion it kind of fits in with where counties actually stand in terms of their ability.

Mushy

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Waterford beat Dublin and Galway two years ago who all then finished level on points. Dublin and Waterford ended up in the relegation final, Waterford lost.

Funnily enough, don't remember anyone saying the league was a farce then but maybe they were. I think its the best league structure weve had. Sure, the 8 team system gives more room for maneuver to experiment but it was tried and it was dull.

And this system prevents a team taking the piss out of the league like Cork did in 2009 and 2010 (if memory serves me right about the years of the strikes) and still maintain their status in the top division.

Sure take from the Ladies side of the game, toss a coin (joke!). I suppose points difference come into it should three teams finish level, would that be fairest?

Think the problem is just the relegation/promotion part, which only needs a slight tweak. OP made a good point about the 1B set up regarding Laois, its very poor. Imagine Limerick won the league, it would make a mockery of it (AFAIR Waterford at least got promoted when they won the league).

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

Let me elaborate - Div 1a as is plus top two from Div 1b.. so Division 1 to be:

Kilkenny
Waterford
Dublin
Tipperary
Galway
Cork
Clare
Limerick

Div 2
Wexford
Offaly
Kerry
Laois
Carlow
Westmeath
London
Antrim

Div 3
Kildare
Derry
Down
Armagh
Mayo
Meath
Wicklow
Donegal

Div 4
The rest

You said merge the divisions. Merging would create a 12 team division one which would be completely boring. The 8 team division you're proposing now wouldn't be much better. That was the format in 2011

armaghlad

howiya wrote: »

You said merge the divisions. Merging would create a 12 team division one which would be completely boring. The 8 team division you're proposing now wouldn't be much better. That was the format in 2011

Top 4 into league semi final bottom four into relegation play off maybe that would spice things up? It works in football and you've a rake of teams all finishing on the same number of points

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

Well you could argue the current set up is elitist as it is now. At least with my suggestion it kind of fits in with where counties actually stand in terms of their ability.

It's not elitist when counties of such standing of Kilkenny, Cork, Galway have all featured in relegation play-offs in recent years. Your suggestion would most likely result in Offaly getting promoted to Division 1 after the first year and we would end up with games like Kilkenny v Offaly today as I said to you in my original reply.

Mushy

howiya wrote: »

I don't see the need for an alternative. People are only looking for an alternative coz Cork didn't win a game. There wasn't a clamour for change last year when Kilkenny (4 points) beat Clare (2 points) by a point in the relegation play-off. Or the year before when Dublin and Waterford both finished bottom on four points.

The whole idea behind the format is that it is extremely competitive and teams will take points off each other. The bottom team finishing with zero points is an anomaly and in this current format the only other team that have finished without a win are Dublin. They were relegated in 2012 after losing the play-off after extra time if I recall correctly

I feel the second bolded part is the reason for the first part, in that there won't be a clamour when its not as clearcut. Fair enough you can't just decide after the regular campaign about which method, that'd be a joke. But calls for just a straight-forward relegation isn't too much to ask for.

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

Top 4 into league semi final bottom four into relegation play off maybe that would spice things up? It works in football and you've a rake of teams all finishing on the same number of points

But every county (bar Kilkenny) plays football to an extent. Its easier to group teams of a similar standing when you've more teams. An eight team NFL Division 1 remains competitive because of the quality of the teams below it. Look at Roscommon coming up this year, Monaghan the year before. If you expanded division 1 into an 8 team division in the hurling it would just turn into a revolving door of Wexford and Offaly coming up and getting relegated every second year

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

I feel the second bolded part is the reason for the first part, in that there won't be a clamour when its not as clearcut. Fair enough you can't just decide after the regular campaign about which method, that'd be a joke. But calls for just a straight-forward relegation isn't too much to ask for.

Obviously its not too much to ask for. If you don't ask you don't get but in a 5 game round robin between the best 6 teams in the country that should all be taking points off each other a play-off at the end between the two lowest teams is the fairest way. How can you argue that straight relegation would be fairer?

From my viewpoint as a Galway supporter we won one game out of 6, we were terrible for most of the league and we were unable to beat Cork at home when it mattered. We deserved to be relegated. No complaints. The only thing I would say is there shouldn't be a toss for home advantage for the play off. As it happened we won the toss but the bottom team should always have to travel to give some benefit to the team who finished 5th.

On the other hand, Laois shouldn't have the play off to save themselves. It was good to see the progress they made the last couple of years but this year they've struggled and having lost 6 from 6 including twice to Kerry they deserved to go down.

Kerry got screwed over in a similar situation with the Offaly play off a couple of years back.

If you are poor during the league you have to pay the price.

armaghlad

howiya wrote: »

But every county (bar Kilkenny) plays football to an extent. Its easier to group teams of a similar standing when you've more teams. An eight team NFL Division 1 remains competitive because of the quality of the teams below it. Look at Roscommon coming up this year, Monaghan the year before. If you expanded division 1 into an 8 team division in the hurling it would just turn into a revolving door of Wexford and Offaly coming up and getting relegated every second year

How are they ever going to get better then, playing in the current structures? Sometimes times you need to learn how to lose before you learn how to win. I mean for Laois (or any county) to lose all their games and still possibly maintain Division 1 status is ridiculous.

Mushy

howiya wrote: »

Obviously its not too much to ask for. If you don't ask you don't get but in a 5 game round robin between the best 6 teams in the country that should all be taking points off each other a play-off at the end between the two lowest teams is the fairest way. How can you argue that straight relegation would be fairer?

Probably cos in the case of this year (albeit at its most extreme), its quite unfair on Galway to go down. Yes they knew the scenario beforehand so can't complain on that front, but it can be used to push change. I guess both ways will have their drawbacks, not everybody will be happy.

The point regarding 1B relegation being a joke still stands though.

Mehapoy

For me I think there are two major problems with the league as it is now, there aren't enough games in the regular round robin so they've put in play offs and the ridiculous quarter finals in order to provide more games, and promotion/ relegation is too tight between the divisions. I think teams like Offaly, Wexford and Limerick are being left behind to a certain extent as they never get to play the top teams, apart from the one off quarter finals...

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

How are they ever going to get better then, playing in the current structures? Sometimes times you need to learn how to lose before you learn how to win. I mean for Laois (or any county) to lose all their games and still possibly maintain Division 1 status is ridiculous.

I agree on the Division 1B relegation. If you lose your play-off you should be relegated to Division 2a. They shouldn't have a second chance against Westmeath.

Teams are getting better under the current structures. Wexford ran Waterford to a point. Kerry even though they finished second bottom won two games in Division 1b and ran Limerick close in another.

But if you create an 8 team division you will just create a revolving door where teams like Kerry will get hammered by the teams going up and the teams coming down from the top division. There isn't any room for improvement.

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

Probably cos in the case of this year (albeit at its most extreme), its quite unfair on Galway to go down. Yes they knew the scenario beforehand so can't complain on that front, but it can be used to push change. I guess both ways will have their drawbacks, not everybody will be happy.

The point regarding 1B relegation being a joke still stands though.

I agree on 1B relegation. Losers of the play-off should go down without having a second chance against Westmeath.

howiya

Mehapoy wrote: »

For me I think there are two major problems with the league as it is now, there aren't enough games in the regular round robin so they've put in play offs and the ridiculous quarter finals in order to provide more games, and promotion/ relegation is too tight between the divisions. I think teams like Offaly, Wexford and Limerick are being left behind to a certain extent as they never get to play the top teams, apart from the one off quarter finals...

Offaly are being left behind because they've done **** all at underage. Not sure how you can argue Limerick are being left behind. Granted they can't seem to get up to 1a but they're in a league semi final now, they've competed in two of the last three Munster finals winning one of them.

topmanamillion

Dick phelan wrote: »

Does anyone else agree the league structure in hurling needs to change? Congrats to Cork today but honestly it's a complete joke you can loose all 5 matches and still stay up, there should be no playoff if your bottom you go down this brings me on to the second major problem with the system, Laois lost to Kerry last night and should be going down yet they have yet another chance at staying in 1B if they beat Westmeath who by rights ought to have been promoted at the expense of Laois. The system needs to change, it's loaded in the favor of the major hurling counties giving them chances they don't deserve.

I wouldn't be in favour of getting rid of the relegation play offs altogether because I think they add a bit of excitement and there'd be a lot more dead rubbers without them

I think a system where if the bottom side finishes winless there's no play off and they are automatically relegated would be much better.
I think hurling has to have relegation play offs because there can be a big gap between the divisions. At the end of the day we need the best sides in the top divisions.

It's also worth bearing in mind two sides could finish bottom on 2 points but the side with the better points difference will stay up. That side might be the one that parked the bus and tried to keep the score down against the big boys while the side that went for it against the big boys and took a tanking will be penalised.
Maybe a head to head system could solve that.

armaghlad

howiya wrote: »

I agree on the Division 1B relegation. If you lose your play-off you should be relegated to Division 2a. They shouldn't have a second chance against Westmeath.

Teams are getting better under the current structures. Wexford ran Waterford to a point. Kerry even though they finished second bottom won two games in Division 1b and ran Limerick close in another.

But if you create an 8 team division you will just create a revolving door where teams like Kerry will get hammered by the teams going up and the teams coming down from the top division. There isn't any room for improvement.

Kerry are the only hurling team that to my mind have had any substantial improvement in recent years. Then again I'm not an expert, just giving my two shillings. Wexford for me were always a strong hurling county that are maybe just returning to where they should have always been anyway. I'm looking at this from the perspective of the Antrims, Carlows, Westmeaths, Laois etc. There's almost too much fluidity (imo) for teams to decline but little scope for moving up the ways.

O Riain

IIRC, On the first year of this set up, there was no relegation play off between the bottom two times.

That left Waterford, the 5th place team, with no games from March until the championship so they decided to change the format to include the bottom two teams in the relegation play off and for the losers to go straight down.

howiya

O Riain wrote: »

IIRC, On the first year of this set up, there was no relegation play off between the bottom two times.

That left Waterford, the 5th place team, with no games from March until the championship so they decided to change the format to include the bottom two teams in the relegation play off and for the losers to go straight down.

2012 was the first year and Galway and Dublin played in the relegation play-off. There was no quarter finals that year. First 3 and winner of 1B played in semi finals. Waterford finished 4th and had no further game.

CrabRevolution

You'll never create a structure that satisfies everyone because the truth is every team wants to play the teams above them, but wants to leave the teams beneath them behind.

For example Clare + Limerick reckon that matches vs Laois and Offaly are pointless and that they deserve matches vs. Kilkenny and Tipp. Offaly and Wexford will want the same, but realistically would settle for matches vs Clare and Limerick. Kerry, Laois, Antrim all want to play Offaly and Wexford. Meath, Wicklow and Down want to be playing Kerry + Carlow and so on all the way down.

Since everyone wants the ladder to be pulled up beneath them, you always end up with several unhappy teams. Everybody's suggestion at reform generally involves expanding the division above to include their team, and cutting off the teams behind them.

In my opinion the current divisions are among the best competitions the GAA have ever run. Every match means something and you've a good spread of teams in each division without too many hammerings. The QFs and playoffs are a bit arbitrary but I don't have a huge issue with them.

KevIRL

O Riain wrote: »

IIRC, On the first year of this set up, there was no relegation play off between the bottom two times.

That left Waterford, the 5th place team, with no games from March until the championship so they decided to change the format to include the bottom two teams in the relegation play off and for the losers to go straight down.

There was a play off but the team in 4th had no further games after the group stage, just like 2nd to 4th in 1B. Waterford finished in that 4th spot 2 years in a row. One of those years they went from mid march to the start of June with no competitive fixture.

IMO the numbers in the divisions are right, but they should scrap all playoffs and knock out games. Play it home and away like a normal league, each team gets 10 games, that's plenty. At the end of the league the top team wins the title, the bottom team (or maybe bottom 2) get relegated. Would be fair, but the GAA don't want to lose the big pay days of the knock out games.

Davys Fits

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You'll never create a structure that satisfies everyone because the truth is every team wants to play the teams above them, but wants to leave the teams beneath them behind.

For example Clare + Limerick reckon that matches vs Laois and Offaly are pointless and that they deserve matches vs. Kilkenny and Tipp. Offaly and Wexford will want the same, but realistically would settle for matches vs Clare and Limerick. Kerry, Laois, Antrim all want to play Offaly and Wexford. Meath, Wicklow and Down want to be playing Kerry + Carlow and so on all the way down.

Since everyone wants the ladder to be pulled up beneath them, you always end up with several unhappy teams. Everybody's suggestion at reform generally involves expanding the division above to include their team, and cutting off the teams behind them.

In my opinion the current divisions are among the best competitions the GAA have ever run. Every match means something and you've a good spread of teams in each division without too many hammerings. The QFs and playoffs are a bit arbitrary but I don't have a huge issue with them.

Well said. Agree 100%

K-9

Mehapoy wrote: »

For me I think there are two major problems with the league as it is now, there aren't enough games in the regular round robin so they've put in play offs and the ridiculous quarter finals in order to provide more games, and promotion/ relegation is too tight between the divisions. I think teams like Offaly, Wexford and Limerick are being left behind to a certain extent as they never get to play the top teams, apart from the one off quarter finals...

The alternative is the old Division 1 and 2 which would probably leave Offaly and Wexford yo yoing between the 2 and leave a very boring Division 2, with everybody knowing who'd get promoted every year.

The problem, as it always is, there are only 8-9 top class teams at any time. A Division containing 8 of those makes it boring and pointless.

The current structure is fairest but could do with tinkering. The bottom 2 in 1A and the top 2 in 1B going into a play off might be better.

nice_guy80

armaghlad wrote: »

Kerry are the only hurling team that to my mind have had any substantial improvement in recent years. Then again I'm not an expert, just giving my two shillings. Wexford for me were always a strong hurling county that are maybe just returning to where they should have always been anyway. I'm looking at this from the perspective of the Antrims, Carlows, Westmeaths, Laois etc. There's almost too much fluidity (imo) for teams to decline but little scope for moving up the ways.

Westmeath, Carlow, Laois didn't get two Clare players to play with them though.

mountgomery burns

You can't blame the league for a team like Offaly being cat. That's a bit too convenient.

homerjay2005

Laois could end up losing 6 games, yet still staying up. farcical.

K-9

The argument for the lower divisions is it gives the likes of Laois a chance to stabilise in 1B and compete there. Playing Kildare or London again isn't much use to them if they want to try and match Offaly or Wexford. Westmeath can still beat them. There's probably 6 or 7 different standards and groupings of counties which makes it difficult to organise. The problem is bridging the gap between them.