League Structure needs to change

Dick phelan

Does anyone else agree the league structure in hurling needs to change? Congrats to Cork today but honestly it's a complete joke you can loose all 5 matches and still stay up, there should be no playoff if your bottom you go down this brings me on to the second major problem with the system, Laois lost to Kerry last night and should be going down yet they have yet another chance at staying in 1B if they beat Westmeath who by rights ought to have been promoted at the expense of Laois. The system needs to change, it's loaded in the favor of the major hurling counties giving them chances they don't deserve.

Mushy

Very hard to disagree, especially after today!

Rega

Dick phelan wrote: »

Does anyone else agree the league structure in hurling needs to change? Congrats to Cork today but honestly it's a complete joke you can loose all 5 matches and still stay up, there should be no playoff if your bottom you go down this brings me on to the second major problem with the system, Laois lost to Kerry last night and should be going down yet they have yet another chance at staying in 1B if they beat Westmeath who by rights ought to have been promoted at the expense of Laois. The system needs to change, it's loaded in the favor of the major hurling counties giving them chances they don't deserve.

Agree completely. Straight promotion and relegation is the fairest way.

And I'm from Cork!

redlead

Rega wrote: »

Agree completely. Straight promotion and relegation is the fairest way.

And I'm from Cork!

I wonder is today's result actually bad for cork. It's just going to cover up all the cracks.

PressRun

Can't disagree. Mind boggling what's happened.

Kristopherus

Agree totally with the OP. You really would have to wonder what the minions in Croke Park/Central Council are doing coming up with with a scheme that defies logic.

Diabhal Beag

Devil's advocate here but on the same hand Galway only won once this League campaign. That doesn't deserve automatic safety imo. I think the knockouts are a joke though. Limerick not getting promoted and still potentially winning the league is very wrong.

howiya

Interesting that no-one created a thread about this before today's result.

The time for conversations like this isn't today. Everyone knew the rules at the start of the season and abided by them. Congress was only a few weeks ago. Were there any motions to change the format of the league?? Instead of starting a thread on boards somebody could have brought a motion to their club AGM and onto county convention etc.

Each of the six teams knew that the two worst teams would play off against each other to see who goes down. Galway only won one game so they're not streets ahead of Cork like the stat of Cork losing all their games suggests. If they were they would have won today and nobody would be talking about the fairness of the format.

I think in a 6 team league where teams could be so close with so few games a play-off is necessary. Remember the idea is that this is the 6 best teams in the country, the elite and I'd have to check but i'd imagine a team losing their 5 games is an anomaly over recent years. The idea isn't that the 6th best team will have a bad year and go down and get replaced by another bad team who go down the following year.

As you can see from the results Clare and Limerick have achieved this weekend 1B isn't far behind. Wexford also ran Waterford close and well the less said about Offaly the better

mountgomery burns

If Galway deserved to stay in Division 1A thhey would have won today. They haven't won a game since the first day of the league. They were still at home today and playing the only side in 1A or 1B aside from Laois who had not one a single game, and Kerry had no problem accounting for them again.

They couldn't even beat a Waterford B team two weeks ago. I have no sympathy for them much like the way nobody would have any sympathy if Waterford had been beaten by Wexford today even though they technically finished 7 places ahead of them in the league. And rightly so, because if you lose thats is your fault. Not the league structures.


The only thing needs tweaking is that laois should be automatically in 2A now and Westmeath should not have to beat them.

Mushy

howiya wrote: »

Interesting that no-one created a thread about this before today's result.

The time for conversations like this isn't today. Everyone knew the rules at the start of the season and abided by them. Congress was only a few weeks ago. Were there any motions to change the format of the league?? Instead of starting a thread on boards somebody could have brought a motion to their club AGM and onto county convention etc.

Each of the six teams knew that the two worst teams would play off against each other to see who goes down. Galway only won one game so they're not streets ahead of Cork like the stat of Cork losing all their games suggests. If they were they would have won today and nobody would be talking about the fairness of the format.

I think in a 6 team league where teams could be so close with so few games a play-off is necessary. Remember the idea is that this is the 6 best teams in the country, the elite and I'd have to check but i'd imagine a team losing their 5 games is an anomaly over recent years. The idea isn't that the 6th best team will have a bad year and go down and get replaced by another bad team who go down the following year.

As you can see from the results Clare and Limerick have achieved this weekend 1B isn't far behind. Wexford also ran Waterford close and well the less said about Offaly the better

Fairly sure there was talk in some thread before today, can't find which one now though. Not in a stand-alone thread though.

Yes, everyone knew the rules, so they can't change. Yes Galway weren't great. But Cork should be relegated automatically, then maybe should have a 2nd last 1A v 2nd in 1B, so Galway v Limerick to play, Thats the problem most appear to have I see.

Nonoperational

Everyone knew the story. Galway one once, and had home advantage for the play off. Hardly a huge injustice.

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

Fairly sure there was talk in some thread before today, can't find which one now though. Not in a stand-alone thread though.

Yes, everyone knew the rules, so they can't change. Yes Galway weren't great. But Cork should be relegated automatically, then maybe should have a 2nd last 1A v 2nd in 1B, so Galway v Limerick to play, Thats the problem most appear to have I see.

So when do you decide relegation? See if the bottom team lost all their games and say good luck? Two teams could potentially finish on four points and be the bottom two. A play-off is the fairest way

Mushy

howiya wrote: »

So when do you decide relegation? See if the bottom team lost all their games and say good luck? Two teams could potentially finish on four points and be the bottom two. A play-off is the fairest way

Before the season, bottom place go down automatically, second bottom go into playoff. If two teams are level on points and finish bottom two, then head to head comes into play!

Utopia Parkway

The system is a joke but sure everyone knows that. The best you can say is that everyone knows the rules beforehand not that it excuses a crazy system.

Danville

I think some people are missing an important point. Because of the present format(bottoms two playing a relegation match), all games in the league itself are highly competitive, as not only are teams trying to avoid last place but are trying to avoid second-last place as well. So this year for example, were the last team to suffer straight relegation, once Cork had lost their third match, everyone else would only go through the motions for the last two games of the league. No competitiveness , no excitement.
The league as presently structured is competitive and exciting throughout all rounds,which is what the public want after all.
However I do accept that the bottom team in 1b should not have two chances to stay up.

mountgomery burns

Mushy wrote: »

Before the season, bottom place go down automatically, second bottom go into playoff. If two teams are level on points and finish bottom two, then head to head comes into play!

And when three teams are level?

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

Before the season, bottom place go down automatically, second bottom go into playoff. If two teams are level on points and finish bottom two, then head to head comes into play!

So you'd potentially relegate a third of the league? Madness

armaghlad

Should restructure completely. Merge the divisions and do away with these league qfs. Who ever comes top wins the league. Second promoted. Bottom two relegated.

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

Should restructure completely. Merge the divisions and do away with these league qfs. Who ever comes top wins the league. Second promoted. Bottom two relegated.

And have to endure games like Kilkenny v Offaly every weekend of the league? No thanks

Mushy

mountgomery burns wrote: »

And when three teams are level?

Would it be possible for 3 teams out of 6 to be level and finish bottom 3?

howiya wrote: »

So you'd potentially relegate a third of the league? Madness

Well the alternative could be just a straight relegation.

armaghlad

howiya wrote: »

And have to endure games like Kilkenny v Offaly every weekend of the league? No thanks

Let me elaborate - Div 1a as is plus top two from Div 1b.. so Division 1 to be:

Kilkenny
Waterford
Dublin
Tipperary
Galway
Cork
Clare
Limerick

Div 2
Wexford
Offaly
Kerry
Laois
Carlow
Westmeath
London
Antrim

Div 3
Kildare
Derry
Down
Armagh
Mayo
Meath
Wicklow
Donegal

Div 4
The rest

redlead

armaghlad wrote: »

Let me elaborate - Div 1a as is plus top two from Div 1b.. so Division 1 to be:

Kilkenny
Waterford
Dublin
Tipperary
Galway
Cork
Clare
Limerick

Div 2
Wexford
Offaly
Kerry
Laois
Carlow
Westmeath
London
Antrim

Div 3
Kildare
Derry
Down
Armagh
Mayo
Meath
Wicklow
Donegal

Div 4
The rest

No that's just an elitist structure. The current set up is fine so long as they get rid of the ludicrous promotion/relegation system. Bottom team should go down and top team should go up. Just have a league final then between the top two 1a teams

mountgomery burns

Mushy wrote: »

Would it be possible for 3 teams out of 6 to be level and finish bottom 3?



Well the alternative could be just a straight relegation.

Waterford beat Dublin and Galway two years ago who all then finished level on points. Dublin and Waterford ended up in the relegation final, Waterford lost.

Funnily enough, don't remember anyone saying the league was a farce then but maybe they were. I think its the best league structure weve had. Sure, the 8 team system gives more room for maneuver to experiment but it was tried and it was dull.

And this system prevents a team taking the piss out of the league like Cork did in 2009 and 2010 (if memory serves me right about the years of the strikes) and still maintain their status in the top division.

howiya

Mushy wrote: »

Well the alternative could be just a straight relegation.

I don't see the need for an alternative. People are only looking for an alternative coz Cork didn't win a game. There wasn't a clamour for change last year when Kilkenny (4 points) beat Clare (2 points) by a point in the relegation play-off. Or the year before when Dublin and Waterford both finished bottom on four points.

The whole idea behind the format is that it is extremely competitive and teams will take points off each other. The bottom team finishing with zero points is an anomaly and in this current format the only other team that have finished without a win are Dublin. They were relegated in 2012 after losing the play-off after extra time if I recall correctly

armaghlad

redlead wrote: »

No that's just an elitist structure. The current set up is fine so long as they get rid of the ludicrous promotion/relegation system. Bottom team should go down and top team should go up. Just have a league final then between the top two 1a teams

Well you could argue the current set up is elitist as it is now. At least with my suggestion it kind of fits in with where counties actually stand in terms of their ability.

Mushy

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Waterford beat Dublin and Galway two years ago who all then finished level on points. Dublin and Waterford ended up in the relegation final, Waterford lost.

Funnily enough, don't remember anyone saying the league was a farce then but maybe they were. I think its the best league structure weve had. Sure, the 8 team system gives more room for maneuver to experiment but it was tried and it was dull.

And this system prevents a team taking the piss out of the league like Cork did in 2009 and 2010 (if memory serves me right about the years of the strikes) and still maintain their status in the top division.

Sure take from the Ladies side of the game, toss a coin (joke!). I suppose points difference come into it should three teams finish level, would that be fairest?

Think the problem is just the relegation/promotion part, which only needs a slight tweak. OP made a good point about the 1B set up regarding Laois, its very poor. Imagine Limerick won the league, it would make a mockery of it (AFAIR Waterford at least got promoted when they won the league).

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

Let me elaborate - Div 1a as is plus top two from Div 1b.. so Division 1 to be:

Kilkenny
Waterford
Dublin
Tipperary
Galway
Cork
Clare
Limerick

Div 2
Wexford
Offaly
Kerry
Laois
Carlow
Westmeath
London
Antrim

Div 3
Kildare
Derry
Down
Armagh
Mayo
Meath
Wicklow
Donegal

Div 4
The rest

You said merge the divisions. Merging would create a 12 team division one which would be completely boring. The 8 team division you're proposing now wouldn't be much better. That was the format in 2011

armaghlad

howiya wrote: »

You said merge the divisions. Merging would create a 12 team division one which would be completely boring. The 8 team division you're proposing now wouldn't be much better. That was the format in 2011

Top 4 into league semi final bottom four into relegation play off maybe that would spice things up? It works in football and you've a rake of teams all finishing on the same number of points

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

Well you could argue the current set up is elitist as it is now. At least with my suggestion it kind of fits in with where counties actually stand in terms of their ability.

It's not elitist when counties of such standing of Kilkenny, Cork, Galway have all featured in relegation play-offs in recent years. Your suggestion would most likely result in Offaly getting promoted to Division 1 after the first year and we would end up with games like Kilkenny v Offaly today as I said to you in my original reply.

Mushy

howiya wrote: »

I don't see the need for an alternative. People are only looking for an alternative coz Cork didn't win a game. There wasn't a clamour for change last year when Kilkenny (4 points) beat Clare (2 points) by a point in the relegation play-off. Or the year before when Dublin and Waterford both finished bottom on four points.

The whole idea behind the format is that it is extremely competitive and teams will take points off each other. The bottom team finishing with zero points is an anomaly and in this current format the only other team that have finished without a win are Dublin. They were relegated in 2012 after losing the play-off after extra time if I recall correctly

I feel the second bolded part is the reason for the first part, in that there won't be a clamour when its not as clearcut. Fair enough you can't just decide after the regular campaign about which method, that'd be a joke. But calls for just a straight-forward relegation isn't too much to ask for.

howiya

armaghlad wrote: »

Top 4 into league semi final bottom four into relegation play off maybe that would spice things up? It works in football and you've a rake of teams all finishing on the same number of points

But every county (bar Kilkenny) plays football to an extent. Its easier to group teams of a similar standing when you've more teams. An eight team NFL Division 1 remains competitive because of the quality of the teams below it. Look at Roscommon coming up this year, Monaghan the year before. If you expanded division 1 into an 8 team division in the hurling it would just turn into a revolving door of Wexford and Offaly coming up and getting relegated every second year