Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

maryishere · 27-03-2016 12:15AM

bubblypop wrote: »

That 300 that retired must include a lot of management level because like I said the highest basic salary for garda rank is 47 or 48k a year, without overtime or allowances.

By retirement age , out of that 300 I'm sure a good number would have achieved promotion or become involved in specialist units and got extra pay for that.

27-03-2016 12:18AM

maryishere wrote: »

By retirement age , out of that 300 I'm sure a good number would have achieved promotion or become involved in specialist units and got extra pay for that.

That's what I'm saying, there must have been a lot of management, superintendent upwards retired that year to bring up the figure. The uniform gardai are the worst paid, worst working hours, least appreciated & in more danger than any other member of AGS. And they get the worst pay.

maryishere · 27-03-2016 12:29AM

bubblypop wrote: »

The uniform gardai are the worst paid, worst working hours, least appreciated & in more danger than any other member of AGS. And they get the worst pay.

I would imagine that is the same in every police force in the world though? The chiefs and the detectives etc get more pay than the indians?

Paulzx · 27-03-2016 12:33AM

maryishere wrote: »

Thats what I would have thought. That means the average salary of those 300 Gardai who retired in 2012 (which was €66,000 a year just before retirement) excluded overtime, so its not unreasonable to suggest average salary inc overtime before they retired at 50 or whatever was 70 or 75K.

You're constantly making assumptions to suit yourself.

The gross salary figures will be inclusive of overtime and will have had pension levy deductions etc made on the full gross figure.

The pension however will only be calculated off non overtime pay.

Your next post will probably pull a salary of 100k for a guard out of your backside. It seems to be getting bigger with every one of your posts:eek:

27-03-2016 12:33AM

maryishere wrote: »

I would imagine that is the same in every police force in the world though? The chiefs and the detectives etc get more pay than the indians?

Oh yea, absolutely. I just think for the work they do, it's hard earned money & anyone spending 30+ years in uniform should be entitled to decent wages & pension.

Paulzx · 27-03-2016 12:36AM

"I would imagine"

"I'm sure a"

"I would have thought"

"so its not unreasonable"

A collection of quotes from your last few posts. Seems pretty vague on certainties to me

maryishere · 27-03-2016 12:38AM

You should not forget about allowances- just because basic pay is xxxxx, many garedai get a lot of allowances. Not too long ago,

I do not have up to date figures to hand, but allowances paid to members of An Garda Síochána in 2008 totalled €215 million, according to a list of 46 expenses types and their costs supplied by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Many of the allowances available to members of the Garda are used when calculating a retiring garda’s pension entitlements, while others are not eligible for tax. Retiring gardaí can choose three consecutive years out of their final 10 years of service for the purposes of the calculation of their pension entitlements.

The overall Garda pay bill in 2008 was about €940 million a year, of which €643 million was regular pay, €215 million allowances, and €80 million overtime.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/garda-allowances-add-215m-to-force-s-pay-bill-1.770402

maryishere · 27-03-2016 12:40AM

Paulzx wrote: »

The pension however will only be calculated off non overtime pay.

The pension of 33k a year show that pay before overtime was 66k a year on average.

And you can see from a year in which"€643 million was regular pay, €215 million allowances, and €80 million overtime", ....you can have a guess how much was added on top of the 66k a year

Rothmans · 27-03-2016 04:33AM

maryishere wrote: »

You should not forget about allowances- just because basic pay is xxxxx, many garedai get a lot of allowances. Not too long ago,

I do not have up to date figures to hand, but allowances paid to members of An Garda Síochána in 2008 totalled €215 million, according to a list of 46 expenses types and their costs supplied by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Many of the allowances available to members of the Garda are used when calculating a retiring garda’s pension entitlements, while others are not eligible for tax. Retiring gardaí can choose three consecutive years out of their final 10 years of service for the purposes of the calculation of their pension entitlements.

The overall Garda pay bill in 2008 was about €940 million a year, of which €643 million was regular pay, €215 million allowances, and €80 million overtime.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/garda-allowances-add-215m-to-force-s-pay-bill-1.770402

You seem to have a habit of quoting figures from the height of the economic boom. I do not know why, but one can only assume it seems from utter disingenuity or ignorance. I hope it is the latter. But it has been covered, time and time again, that Gardaí, and public servants in general, earn significantly less than they did 8 and 9 years ago, both in real and nominal terms, and that is an inequity (a term on which you seem very keen), not to mind the post-2012 public servants who are earning significantly less again.

You talk about the many allowances. Yes. There are many allowances. But the vast majority of these are for professional positions, and form core pay for many professional members of An Garda Siochana such as PSV inspectors, accountants, and so on. If these allowances were not in place, An Garda Siochana would have zero hope of filling professional positions. The vast majority of Gardai, i.e. 99.9% of regular Gardaí would not be entitled to such allowances. Most Gardaí would be entitled to no more than shift allowance. And that'd be it. Gardaí in offices would only be entitled to their base salaray

Finally, as well as continually presenting extremely outdated figures, you continually failed to recognise that approx €12,000 of the pension of a public servant stems from PRSI contributions and entitlements which are the EXACT SAME as one would expect, having worked in the private sector. On top of that, you've not recognised that public servants make pretty significant pension contributions as well as the paying the PRD public service tax, which those in the private sector do not pay.

Rothmans · 27-03-2016 04:37AM

maryishere wrote: »

The pension of 33k a year show that pay before overtime was 66k a year on average.

And you can see from a year in which"€643 million was regular pay, €215 million allowances, and €80 million overtime", ....you can have a guess how much was added on top of the 66k a year

You're implying the average pay for a Garda was 66k. It wasn't. 66k was the average pay between all the Gardaí, Sergeants, Inspectors, Superintendents, Chief Superintendents, Assistant Comms, Deputy Comms, and the Commissioner. You have been extraordinarily disingenuous this entire thread IMO.

kowloon · 27-03-2016 04:54AM

Fighting Irish wrote: »

So anyone who works for a bad wage is automatically the best for the job?

You should be in government, you talk a lot of sense

If you choose to be a nurse despite the bad wage you must really want to be a nurse. It's not a job you fall into because you need money. It was a compliment to a bunch of people who work hard for less than they deserve.

Maybe you should be the one in government.

maryishere · 27-03-2016 12:05PM

Rothmans wrote: »

You're implying the average pay for a Garda was 66k. It wasn't. 66k was the average pay between all the Gardaí, Sergeants, Inspectors, Superintendents, Chief Superintendents, Assistant Comms, Deputy Comms, and the Commissioner.

It was, as the article confirmed, the average pay for the 300 Members of the Gardai who retired in 2012. 66k was their average pay before overtime etc.
They got an average tax free pay off of 107k, and an average pension of 33k.
http://www.herald.ie/news/retiring-gardai-will-get-average-payoff-of-107k-28000137.html

Some actually got jobs or took work elsewhere as they were relatively young eg very early fifties. Nothing wrong with that.

Rothmans wrote: »

You seem to have a habit of quoting figures from the height of the economic boom. .

No I did not . 2012 and 2009 was not the height of the economic boom.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-26518918.html
Wages and pensions for retiring Gardai have not changed much since then.

The point the journalists in the newspapers, and people like Eddie Hobbs and Pat Kenny made, is that people retired now with the gold plated pensions they mentioned are relatively well off compared to younger recruits...there was even an example on the radio of a retired Guard who was getting much more in retirement as a pension than his son, a newly recruited Guard, was getting for actually working and living away from home.

purplecow1977 · 27-03-2016 01:44PM

I love gardaí. Men in uniform - what's not to like!

evolving_doors · 27-03-2016 06:12PM

Won't sometime please think of the teachers?

Water John · 27-03-2016 08:34PM

Yes, I think about the young temproary teachers that their older brethern shafted. And well have the usual whingefest through this week to avoid.

purplecow1977 · 27-03-2016 09:29PM

Water John wrote: »

Yes, I think about the young temproary teachers that their older brethern shafted. And well have the usual whingefest through this week to avoid.

Care to elaborate?

evolving_doors · 27-03-2016 09:32PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

I think he means the usual whingefest on Ah when union conferences are on.

doireannod · 27-03-2016 09:41PM

tayto lover wrote: »

People who work unsocial hours like nurses and garda to be on 23K is wrong.
Even getting a shift payment does not make up for being away at night from their families and taking abuse from drunks and violent thugs.

same goes for doctors. Starting at 30k. Working unsocial hours, away from family and taking abuse from drunks and violent thugs

purplecow1977 · 27-03-2016 09:56PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think he means the usual whingefest on Ah when union conferences are on.

From the begrudgers presumably!

gctest50 · 27-03-2016 09:56PM

doireannod wrote: »

same goes for doctors. Starting at 30k. Working unsocial hours, away from family and taking abuse from drunks and violent thugs

or screwing up so often the HSE end up paying out :

€64 million in 2011.

€47 million in 2012.

€85 million in 2013.

....... it has over €1 billion in outstanding liabilities, consisting of 5,755 active claims.

http://www.thejournal.ie/state-claims-agency-payouts-hse-1370954-Mar2014/

doireannod · 27-03-2016 10:03PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

Just on this. Medicine in Ireland is a 5/6 year course. You have the pre-clinical years at the start which are theoretical will some patient interaction, clinical skills, learning procedures, etc and then the final two years are purely hospital based where you're learning and doing on wards with patients. You could leave after the pre-clinical years with an honours science degree but obviously you need to complete the final two years in hospital to get a medicine degree and be a doctor. Technically we all have a degree before we hit our final two placement years. Interns are doctors, registered with the medical council, but doctors do continuous exams and training from intern to sho to reg, spr etc..
If a junior biomed isn't regarded as registered to work independently with the appropriate board, etc. and make the decisions that go with that then it's not the equivalent of intern year where you seen as responsible for patients, working call shifts, commencing meds, antibiotics etc..

Pay should be much more than 5e though at that stage but as I explained in my other post I just can't see how you can justify equal pay between junior doctors and biomedical scientists.

This whole argument is ridiculous. Junior doctors are responsible for patient care. If the patient dies because of a potassium of 9.1, who is responsible? The lab or the doctor? Who is the one who has to go and correct this? Who has to think of the potential causes and how to reverse it? Who stays by the patient's side until they're better? I'm baffled this is being discussed.

doireannod · 27-03-2016 10:05PM

gctest50 wrote: »

or screwing up so often the HSE end up paying out :

The claims made against The HSE quoted in that article aren't detailed. Those claims could have been due to nursing errors, admin errors, porters' errors, catering staff errors, social worker errors, radiographer errors. What leads you to believe these claims are due to doctors "screwing up"?

It seems a significant number of claims were due to damage to personal property. Sounds like security staff errors are also problematic.

gctest50 · 27-03-2016 10:30PM

doireannod wrote: »

The claims made against The HSE quoted in that article aren't detailed. Those claims could have been due to nursing errors, admin errors, porters' errors, catering staff errors, social worker errors, radiographer errors. What leads you to believe these claims are due to doctors "screwing up"?

It seems a significant number of claims were due to damage to personal property. Sounds like security staff errors are also problematic.

They are forced to work ridiculous long hours yes ? 24 hour , 36 hour, 60 hour shifts ?

A junior doctor was found unconscious after working 60 hours straight, it has been revealed.

The medic collapsed in an operating theatre of Waterford Regional Hospital, one of his colleagues has told.

Dr Patrick Kelly admitted that this was not the only alarming incident to have taken place at Waterford Regional Hospital.

He admitted that another one of his colleagues had fainted onto a patient’s bed, while others had crashed their cars due to extreme exhaustion.

doireannod · 27-03-2016 10:35PM

gctest50 wrote: »

They are forced to work ridiculous long hours yes ? 24 hour , 36 hour, 72 hour shifts ?

Yes they do but I don't think a doctor has ever damaged anyone's personal property due to feeling exhausted.

Maybe some of the claims quoted above are a result of recent HIQA investigations in to Nursing Home patient abuse.

doireannod · 27-03-2016 10:37PM

"A junior doctor was found unconscious after working 60 hours straight, it has been revealed.

The medic collapsed in an operating theatre of Waterford Regional Hospital, one of his colleagues has told".

Are you saying the doctor screwed up because he collapsed? And are you suggesting these types of incidents results in pay outs from The HSE?

c_meth · 27-03-2016 10:39PM

maryishere wrote: »

Hold on a sec. Public service rules are that on retirement you get 18 months wages tax free lump sum and a pension of half your finishing salary.

So if you work loads of overtime in your final year you get a much higher pension you say?

The minor detail you omitted was that you have to work for 40 years (or 30 years if a Guarda) to get the pension you refer to.

Dingle_berry · 27-03-2016 11:05PM

doireannod wrote: »

This whole argument is ridiculous. Junior doctors are responsible for patient care. If the patient dies because of a potassium of 9.1, who is responsible? The lab or the doctor? Who is the one who has to go and correct this? Who has to think of the potential causes and how to reverse it? Who stays by the patient's side until they're better? I'm baffled this is being discussed.

It's not ridiculous. Those NCHDs you claim assume full responsibility for patient care, and their consultants, are very quick to point the finger. The crash team who give triple the maximum recommended dose of drugs yet blame the lab when a result (that wasn't requested as urgent) was late. The surgeon who removes a healthy organ based solely on an erroneous lab report - despite contradictory signs and epidemiological data. The obstetricians caring for a woman with frank sepsis and say 'oh the lab never phoned is so we assumed that the WCC was normal'. That's not to mention the very next post you made after assuming full responsibility "

The claims made against The HSE quoted in that article aren't detailed. Those claims could have been due to nursing errors, admin errors, porters' errors, catering staff errors, social worker errors, radiographer errors. What leads you to believe these claims are due to doctors "screwing up"? It seems a significant number of claims were due to damage to personal property. Sounds like security staff errors are also problematic."
If the lab didn't phone you with the potassium of 9.1 you know where you would point the finger. If the pharmacist didn't correct your prescribing errors you wouldn't assume responsibility for the outcome nor defend that pharmacist.

doireannod · 27-03-2016 11:09PM

gctest50 wrote: »

They are forced to work ridiculous long hours yes ? 24 hour , 36 hour, 60 hour shifts ?

You've edited the post after I responded to include reference to a doctor fainting on a patient bed and doctors crashing theit cars due to exhaustion. My response remains the same.

1. Do you think doctors collapsing due to exhaustion amounts to "screwing up"?

2. Do you think these incidents give rise to The HSE giving pay outs? And if you think they do, do you think
- a) the payout went to the doctor who claimed against The HSE for breech of contract (working too many hours)

-b) the payout went to patients who have made claims against The HSE as they're upset that their doctor collapsed due to exhaustion?

maryishere · 27-03-2016 11:11PM

c_meth wrote: »

The minor detail you omitted was that you have to work for 40 years (or 30 years if a Guarda) to get the pension you refer to.

I did mention it, and it was also mentioned in the links I provided. Nobody implied you would get a full pension of that magnitude after only 10 or 20 years work, come on now.

doireannod · 27-03-2016 11:14PM

Dingle_berry wrote: »

It's not ridiculous. Those NCHDs you claim assume full responsibility for patient care, and their consultants, are very quick to point the finger. The crash team who give triple the maximum recommended dose of drugs yet blame the lab when a result (that wasn't requested as urgent) was late. The surgeon who removes a healthy organ based solely on an erroneous lab report - despite contradictory signs and epidemiological data. The obstetricians caring for a woman with frank sepsis and say 'oh the lab never phoned is so we assumed that the WCC was normal'. That's not to mention the very next post you made after assuming full responsibility "

The claims made against The HSE quoted in that article aren't detailed. Those claims could have been due to nursing errors, admin errors, porters' errors, catering staff errors, social worker errors, radiographer errors. What leads you to believe these claims are due to doctors "screwing up"? It seems a significant number of claims were due to damage to personal property. Sounds like security staff errors are also problematic."
If the lab didn't phone you with the potassium of 9.1 you know where you would point the finger. If the pharmacist didn't correct your prescribing errors you wouldn't assume responsibility for the outcome nor defend that pharmacist.

Absolutely not. What I prescribe is my responsibility. Not the pharmacists'. If I prescribe a lethal dose of insulin I take responsibility for that. Not the pharmacist.

I don't rely on the lab to phone me with the result. The onus is on the person who takes the sample to follow up the result. Again, fully my responsibility. Not the lab's.

If a patient died due to a lethal dose of a medicine resulting in a lethal electrolyte imbalance do you honestly think anyone except the doctor is responsible for that?

I assume full responsibility for patient care. But the claims mentioned by the article don't mention if they're about patient care or not. The claim could be against catering staff for spilling boiling water on a colleague's hand. No details about the events leading to "payouts" are given. It does mention that a lot of claims were made due to damage to personal property.

What do you mean about a surgeon taking out a healthy organ based on an erroneous lab result despite contradictory signs and epidemiological data? Can you give an example here?

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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