Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

maryishere · 26-03-2016 03:02AM

esforum wrote: »

and many thousands of them are Sergeants, Inspectors, Supers, Chiefs, Assistant commissioners and Deputy commissioners. (plus civilian staff who for pay and authority purposes are assigned an 'equality rank' ie the CMO is an Assistant commissioner)

So? Nobody ever said the average did not include Sergeants, Inspectors etc...it would not be the average across the entire workforce if it did not.
Eddie Hobbs on the radio and Pat Kenny explained it well some time ago.
I gave you a paper link too:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-26518918.html

esforum wrote: »

You have not replied to the many other statements or questions. Dodge dodge dodge

Yes other did,and I am not going to repeat when you cannot take even simple points on board.

Paulzx · 26-03-2016 07:54PM

maryishere wrote: »

So? Nobody ever said the average did not include Sergeants, Inspectors etc...it would not be the average across the entire workforce if it did not.
Eddie Hobbs on the radio and Pat Kenny explained it well some time ago.
I gave you a paper link too:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-26518918.html

Yes other did,and I am not going to repeat when you cannot take even simple points on board.

When your side of the debate consists of telling someone they're "silly" and quoting Eddie (I'm in it for meself ) Hobbs you know you're losing.

You've also again convienently ignored the 12000 state pension part of the the "millionaire" pension whilst quoting a seven year old newspaper article

maryishere · 26-03-2016 09:06PM

Paulzx wrote: »

You've also again convienently ignored the 12000 state pension part of the the "millionaire" pension whilst quoting a seven year old newspaper article

You know you are losing when you are trying to bring the state pension in to it. The state pension is paid from the government funds just as other public service pensions are paid from government funds. Yes the average €1,100,000 pension pot consists of the old age pension as well as other government money, but it is all government money, and money is money. The fact the figures for the Gardai retiring are from 2009 does not alter things as the figures for Gardai have not changed much since then.

Its the very young teacher / civil servant / Guard (not to mention the many other people in our economy who will never be able to afford a decent pension and who will never have a secure job ) I feel a bit sorry for by comparison, as the unions and government have conspired to retain the overall pay pension and conditions of the "older" teacher / civil servant / Guard.

Little CuChulainn · 26-03-2016 09:11PM

maryishere wrote: »

You know you are losing when you are trying to bring the state pension in to it. The state pension is paid from the government funds just as other public service pensions are paid from government funds. Yes the average €1,100,000 pension pot consists of the old age pension as well as other government money, but it is all government money, and money is money. The fact the figures for the Gardai retiring are from 2009 does not alter things as the figures for Gardai have not changed much since then.

Its the very young teacher / civil servant / Guard (not to mention the many other people in our economy who will never be able to afford a decent pension and who will never have a secure job ) I feel a bit sorry for by comparison, as the unions and government have conspired to retain the overall pay pension and conditions of the "older" teacher / civil servant / Guard.

Can you show your workings for your 1.1 million euro valuation. Or anyones workings on it.

maryishere · 26-03-2016 09:21PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Can you show your workings for your 1.1 million euro valuation. Or anyones workings on it.

Gardai are unusual in the public sector as they can retire on full pension at the age of 50. The calculations are based on a garda who joins the force after changes made to pensions arrangements in 1995 and retires on a salary of €52,822. (Note this is a conservative figure: others would say the average salary a Garda would be on just before retirement is well in excess of 60k )
However, assuming average salary at retirement age (after increments, promotions etc ) of 52,822 p.a, on retirement after 30 years the garda is entitled to a tax-free lump sum of €79,233, (18 months salary equivalent) and an annual pension of €26,411. (half salary on retirement ).

Given average life expectancy of Gardai, the value of this retirement lump sum is €1.12m, of which the State will have contributed €1m.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-26518918.html

Little CuChulainn · 26-03-2016 09:34PM

maryishere wrote: »

Gardai are unusual in the public sector as they can retire on full pension at the age of 50. The calculations are based on a garda who joins the force after changes made to pensions arrangements in 1995 and retires on a salary of €52,822. (Note this is a conservative figure: others would say the average salary a Garda would be on just before retirement is well in excess of 60k )
However, assuming average salary at retirement age (after increments, promotions etc ) of 52,822 p.a, on retirement after 30 years the garda is entitled to a tax-free lump sum of €79,233, (18 months salary equivalent) and an annual pension of €26,411. (half salary on retirement ).

Given average life expectancy of Gardai, the value of this retirement lump sum is €1.12m, of which the State will have contributed €1m.

A few things. Your calculations assume Gardaí retire at 50. Have you any source for this. Very few Gardaí start at twenty and can retire at 50. You also assume a Garda lives 40 years after retirement. This would put them at 90, 12 years past the average life expectancy in Ireland. And that's ignoring the widely accepted theory that a career of shiftwork in a high stress job reduced life expectancy.

maryishere · 26-03-2016 09:41PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

A few things. Your calculations assume Gardaí retire at 50. Have you any source for this. Very few Gardaí start at twenty and can retire at 50.

I was said by others and me they can retire on full pension at the age of 50, once they have 30 years service done. I did not claim they all retire at 50.

Also, the older you live your expected age of death increases. The average age a 50 year old is expected to live to is higher than an average 20 year old is expected to live to, for example.....given some people unfortunately die before the age of 50 due to various factors eg ill health, car accidents etc.

n.b. some Gardai get a higher pension : here is the group of 300 who retired in 2012 and who have done better for themselves:
http://www.herald.ie/news/retiring-gardai-will-get-average-payoff-of-107k-28000137.html

Little CuChulainn · 26-03-2016 09:59PM

maryishere wrote: »

I was said by others and me they can retire on full pension at the age of 50, once they have 30 years service done. I did not claim they all retire at 50.

Also, the older you live your expected age of death increases. The average age a 50 year old is expected to live to is higher than an average 20 year old is expected to live to, for example.....given some people unfortunately die before the age of 50 due to various factors eg ill health, car accidents etc.

n.b. some Gardai get a higher pension : here is the group of 300 who retired in 2012 and who have done better for themselves:
http://www.herald.ie/news/retiring-gardai-will-get-average-payoff-of-107k-28000137.html

You are taking an example of a person who joins the force at the age of 19 and retires at 50 and then lives past the average life expectancy despite all odds. You are then claiming that this is an average member rather than the edge of the curve it is and calculating a pension based on that assumption. It's pure nonsense.

noodler · 26-03-2016 10:10PM

tayto lover wrote: »

You must be an employer Marty. You want everyone working for very little.

You are showing your true colours again.

Your pay peanuts get monkeys argument is beaten back by someone pointing out the staggering number of AGS applicants and you resort to accusations about the other poster's status.

At least you are consistent.

tayto lover · 26-03-2016 10:12PM

noodler wrote: »

You are showing your true colours again.

Your pay peanuts get monkeys argument is beaten back by someone pointing out the staggering number of AGS applicants and you resort to accusations about the other poster's status.

At least you are consistent.

On the contrary.

I don't know how many apply for the Grda nor is it part of the argument.
I'm saying that Mary is just concerned with keeping everyones pay low so she must be an employer.

Try reading the stuff before coming out with your silly remarks.

Little CuChulainn · 26-03-2016 10:13PM

noodler wrote: »

You are showing your true colours again.

Your pay peanuts get monkeys argument is beaten back by someone pointing out the staggering number of AGS applicants and you resort to accusations about the other poster's status.

At least you are consistent.

You are equating quantity with quality.

maryishere · 26-03-2016 10:15PM

The 300 Gardai who retired in 2012 with an average €107,000 payoff, along with an average €33,000-a-year pension, will only have to live 30.09 years after retirement before their pension pot is worth the €1.1m.

Not bad for some people who may have joing the Gardai at 18 and worked only 30 years before retiring.
The average age person age 48 or 50 can expect to live more than 30 years.

tayto lover · 26-03-2016 10:15PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You are equating quantity with quality.

He's always coming up with stupid stuff. Never reads the thread but just drifts in and out with silly comments.

purplecow1977 · 26-03-2016 10:17PM

I think the gardaí do a fairly important job. I don't begrudge them that payment. I'm not sure if your figures are accurate though, but even if they were, I think it is well deserved.

maryishere · 26-03-2016 10:18PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm saying that Mary is just concerned with keeping everyones pay low so she must be an employer.
.

I would love to see everyone earning high wages and retiring at 50 (so they can live with holiday homes, play golf or whatever) but that is not realistic. I would prefer see fairness and equality in our economy that the current unfairness.

tayto lover · 26-03-2016 10:20PM

maryishere wrote: »

I would love to see everyone earning high wages and retiring at 50 (so they can live with holiday homes, play golf or whatever) but that is not realistic. I would prefer see fairness and equality in our economy that the current unfairness.

I never heard it explained why they can retire at 50. Maybe someone could explain why. It seems very young. However the debate is around a decent wage and they don't seem to be on one.

purplecow1977 · 26-03-2016 10:24PM

According to this http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-boss-happy-to-speed-up-reform-31112757.html the average age of those joining the gardaí is 28. Add in 2 years of training and you have a garda qualifying at 30. Add on their 30 years service and they can retire at 60. I don't see the issue with this.

Our younger counterparts in the Public Service have been rightly sold up the Swanee & I hope this gets rectified sooner rather than later.

maryishere · 26-03-2016 10:28PM

According to the Evening herald the 300 who retired in 2012 were on 66k a year just before retirement. However I do not know if that includes allowances such as for overtime, shift work or whatever (eg allowance for being in special units eg sub-aqua)....or would their average salary be 70k or 75k plus inc allowances?

Those on starting wage are not overpaid esp. if they have to live in Dublin.

purplecow1977 · 26-03-2016 10:32PM

I don't consider 66k on retirement overpaid either. I think our focus should be directed towards actual moneygrabbers like our TDs who claim for mundane expenses and manage to claim teacher wages etc without actually teaching!

tayto lover · 26-03-2016 10:37PM

People who work unsocial hours like nurses and garda to be on 23K is wrong.
Even getting a shift payment does not make up for being away at night from their families and taking abuse from drunks and violent thugs.

maryishere · 26-03-2016 10:37PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I don't consider 66k on retirement overpaid either.

The average wage in the private sector is only half that, and most have no security or great pension.

tayto lover · 26-03-2016 10:41PM

maryishere wrote: »

The average wage in the private sector is only half that, and most have no security or great pension.

Because they're not complaining or their Union is weak.
They should be doing something about it.

purplecow1977 · 26-03-2016 10:48PM

maryishere wrote: »

The average wage in the private sector is only half that, and most have no security or great pension.

My brother works in the private sector. Recently got an increase of 3% along with an extra bonus or something of €2,500. He's 23. Not entirely sure of his current salary.

My partner used to work in the private sector. Regularly had bonuses of €5000-€10000 most years, along with travel expenses, company car, accommodation in fancy hotels for meetings, fully paid staff nights out etc. At times I wonder why he left at all!

Years ago, people pitied those in the public service because all the money was to be made elsewhere. Public service workers didn't receive any extra benefits or money. Oh how the tables turned when things turned sour. Now, it's the bees knees! :rolleyes:

Also, my partner has no joined the public service, and has no job security, and diminished pension benefits due to qualifying post 2012. There are plenty of teachers in a similar position - don't get me started on second level. My friend has had to move to the UK to gain a second level teaching position. They're crying out for NQTs there - I wonder why!

maryishere · 26-03-2016 10:56PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Because they're not complaining or their Union is weak.
They should be doing something about it.

Wishful thinking but....
Many work in small businesses which cannot afford to pay them more , and if they went on strike nobody would really care too much, they would buy their goods / services from a cheaper provider. If every shop / hotel / restaurant / pub / butcher / garage / florist / builder / factory / farm / workshop / fishing boat / clinic/ surgery / office etc paid their workers 66k a year and a pension package worth €1.1 million, the price of everything would be much much higher and the country could not compete with other countries at all.

I know someone with a third level qualification working for an American multi-national for the past 15 or so years and they are only paid thirty something k a year. They are in a part of the country where it is hard to get other jobs and at least the cost of living there is less than Dublin. If workers there demanded 66k and big pensions the company would get up and leave.

26-03-2016 11:23PM

maryishere wrote: »

According to the Evening herald the 300 who retired in 2012 were on 66k a year just before retirement. However I do not know if that includes allowances such as for overtime, shift work or whatever (eg allowance for being in special units eg sub-aqua)....or would their average salary be 70k or 75k plus inc allowances?

Those on starting wage are not overpaid esp. if they have to live in Dublin.

That includes allowances & overtime. The highest basic salary for a Garda is 47/48 thousand a year. That's anybody over 17 years service. ( at Garda rank )

You must remember, not all gardai get the chance to do overtime. Budgets being cut the last few years mean that there hasn't been much overtime at all, unless your in a city centre station. Also, while it is nice being able to top up wages with overtime ( if it's available ) it still means having to work on rest days to make a decent wage.
Gardai work 10 hour shifts, for 6 days in a row. Time off is essential IMO. Those guards that work as much as possible to receive some extra money, must burn out & become less productive.
A lot of gardai can't work rest days due to childcare issues.
Different allowances are payable to different gardai. They are not universal.

maryishere · 26-03-2016 11:33PM

bubblypop wrote: »

That includes allowances & overtime.

Hold on a sec. Public service rules are that on retirement you get 18 months wages tax free lump sum and a pension of half your finishing salary.

So if you work loads of overtime in your final year you get a much higher pension you say?

26-03-2016 11:42PM

maryishere wrote: »

Hold on a sec. Public service rules are that on retirement you get 18 months wages tax free lump sum and a pension of half your finishing salary.

So if you work loads of overtime in your final year you get a much higher pension you say?

It's worked out over the last few years somehow, I'm not sure how.
But, like I said, not everyone has the chance to do that.

Paulzx · 26-03-2016 11:53PM

bubblypop wrote: »

It's worked out over the last few years somehow, I'm not sure how.
But, like I said, not everyone has the chance to do that.

Overtime is not pensionable. It is however subject to pension levies etc. Go figure that one out

maryishere · 27-03-2016 12:00AM

Paulzx wrote: »

Overtime is not pensionable.

Thats what I would have thought. That means the average salary of those 300 Gardai who retired in 2012 (which was €66,000 a year just before retirement) excluded overtime, so its not unreasonable to suggest average salary inc overtime before they retired at 50 or whatever was 70 or 75K.

27-03-2016 12:05AM

maryishere wrote: »

Thats what I would have thought. That means the average salary of those 300 Gardai who retired in 2012 (which was €66,000 a year just before retirement) excluded overtime, so its not unreasonable to suggest average salary inc overtime before they retired at 50 or whatever was 70 or 75K.

That 300 that retired must include a lot of management level because like I said the highest basic salary for garda rank is 47 or 48k a year, without overtime or allowances.

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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