Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

There is so no way that this thread is going to go anywhere good.

I am going to point out though that there -are- pushes for rights in situations like paternal custody of children (although I was -told-, so don't quote me on this, as I've not had chance to research it), that men who apply for custodial rights in the US are actually awarded it somewhere around the 70% mark) by men and women both. But it is quite annoying to read rants from (primarily males, sorry guys) online who, rather than seeing how they can get involved with shelters for male victims of domestic abuse and male homeless shelters etcetera, seem to think that it would be all okay as long as the feminist groups shut down and women suffered too.

It doesn't need to be a COMPETITION. Men don't have to -suffer- for women to have rights. But it IS going to have to be primarily men to identify the issues that affect them and to fight them - NOT fight women for them, because that is counter-productive and silly, but fight societal conditioning. Women did to some extent have to fight men, and that tends to get confusing nowadays, because when this all started, men did hold most, if not all, positions of power. Now it's a case of fighting society, fighting entrenched attitudes.

But the worst, worst place to start is from a position that it's all feminism's fault.

I long for the day when threads like this won't be necessary any more because women and men are truly equal.

orubiru wrote: »

That is not the point I was making AT ALL.

I was responding to 2 points.

1. That women are not treated like human beings.

2. That the "deck" is stacked in favour of men.

I feel that my posts do enough to show these points are not valid.

Women are treated like human beings, with most men caring deeply about the women in their lives. I think I have illustrated this.

Men have it pretty bad too, the "deck" is stacked against them also. I think I have illustrated this.

Alternatively you could conclude that some men and some women are not treated like human beings.

Arguing that men have been used as a disposable resource in wars for many years does not support the argument that society favours men. Kind of the opposite actually.

I refer you to my initial response. Some people have it good. Some people have it bad. That's life.

If you think that women generally aren't treated like human beings then I can only assume you are posting from another planet and I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.

Your example is something from 100 years ago. It's not really relevant to today.

I'm pro equality and anti feminist, BUT I don't think it's fair to blame feminism for the systemic discrimination men face - what feminism can be blame for is denying its existence and trying to claim a female monopoly on being discriminated against.

I'm anti feminist because modern feminism perpetuates so many double standards and so much man shaming. Not a day goes by when some idiot doesn't write an article from a "feminist" perspective which, reading between the lines (or sometimes just reading the actual lines themselves) tells me I should feel guilty for having been born male. This had an absolutely appalling effect on my self esteem growing up and I am fully convinced that it's one of the reasons so many young men need to get locked before they have the courage to say hello to a woman they like, and this is something I cannot forgive feminists for. The no true Scotsman argument doesn't help either - take some responsibility for choosing to identify with a movement which espouses so much hatred.

orubiru wrote: »

Um, men have gone to war to be killed and mangled up by the tens of thousands. Who were they doing that for? It has happened before and it'll happen again.

Who historically worked dangerous, hard, labour intensive jobs to support their families?

My grandfathers certainly didn't work themselves into an early grave providing for wives and daughters that they didn't even consider to be human.

Now, and in the past, women have asked men to put their bodies and lives on the line. Men have answered the call.

We don't treat them like human beings though right?

No. Most men love the women in their lives and would even go so far as to sacrifice themselves for those women. Ah, we just don't treat them like human beings though, right?

Hey, we are more likely to be unemployed or homeless. We're more likely to commit suicide.

Sure, the deck is totally stacked in our favor.

Feminism is not an attack on you personally. It's not even an attack on men at all unless you listen to the fringe lunatics to whom the internet gives a voice.

When men were sent out to fight and die at war, who sent them? Was it women? And when women weren't allowed the opportunity to go and stand at their side, even if they had wanted to, who denied them that opportunity? Women?

What do you imagine happens to women anyway, when war sweeps across a nation or continent? Do you imagine them wearing pretty dresses and picking flowers out in the countryside? Or are they just suffering and starving and being raped, bombed and murdered anyway, only with much less agency or control of their fates than even the unfortunate men?

When your grandfather worked himself to the bone to provide for his family, who was it that decided the women couldn't go out and earn, or even get an education in many cases? Was it the women?

Men loved women, and that's supposed to offer them solace? People also love their dogs, or their cars, or their gardens, but that doesn't mean we afford any of those things the rights and responsibilities due to a human being.

The argument that men have also suffered through history takes nothing from the fact that women have invariably held the sh*ttier end of a sh*tty, sh*tty stick. And it's missing the point anyway, because the goal of feminism isn't to take from men and give to women.

Society is an entity all its own - nobody sat down and thought it out, drawing up a list of rules. It evolved over millennia and put limits and restrictions on all of us. It took women getting the sh*ttier end of the stick for a long time for them to finally stand up and hold a mirror to it, and we should be thanking them for that, not denigrating them. Because feminism is ultimately not about Women vs Men, it's about All Of Us vs bollox constructs and gender roles that tell people how to live their lives; take classes of people and tell them what they can and can't do, what's expected of them, and rob them of agency.

The fact that men still face difficulties of their own doesn't make feminism the enemy. The enemy is entrenched attitudes and stigmas that are examples of the very thing feminism has battled against. Our society might be a better place to live now than it has ever been before, but that doesn't mean it is without fault.

And if it helps, feminism means that more and more women are being afforded the right to fight and die on the battlefield should they so desire. So that's good. I guess?

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Feminism is not an attack on you personally. It's not even an attack on men at all unless you listen to the fringe lunatics to whom the internet gives a voice.

This simply isn't true anymore. Attacks on men in general are no longer the province of "fringe lunatics", they appear in the media and in popular culture on a daily basis, and are spread by ordinary women calling themselves feminists, and by misguided men who don't realise the damage they're doing. That whole "man up" campaign is a good example.

Next thing you know they'll be looking to vote as well!

Women got the sh1te kicked into them for asking for the vote. That was less than 100 year ago. Something tells me this country or others won't be celebrating the suffragette movement in a tiny fraction of the scale that 1916 is.
Not to mention the creation of the Free State bode incredibly badly for women. The last 60-70 years has been an exercise in complete control and infliction of body horror that makes me wonder what was the point in celebrating freedom from the British empire to be imprisoned more horrifically by the church.

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Sure that's feminism's fault and all I'd say.

Also I saw a woman playing tennis badly the other day. Feminism again.

Also a woman was rude to me in the shop the other day. Again, feminism.

Sure it's everywhere.

Is that deliberate or do you have a complete ignorance of the genuine criticism of modern feminism?