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Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

Irishcrx

Just a conversation that popped up recently when out with friends and I guess something that has been on my mind for a while now as I watch differant friends, situations etc.

Has radical feminism and a push for equal rights gained so much momentum , pressure in the press , the workplace , social media that it has actually now swung the other way and it is men that are looking at oppression?

A couple of scenario's swing to mind , the company I work for have had several pushes to be seen to be an equal opportunity employer , which they are , however this also included women in positions of ppwer (IE Unit leaders and Directors) they have often appointed women to these positions to make up their numbers balance while more qualified men were turned down for the job in favour of the news letter saying we have met the European quota - This isn't right.

Single father rights - Or lack there of, absolute joke of a system - Several friends of mine are single fathers and being dragged through hell to see their children even though they are great fathers. All the power with the ex girlfriend and the bitterness , the law says it protects the children but it really is protecting the mother and many abuse this position to exact revenge on an ex - Good father need rights equal to mothers regardless of marriage - Bad ones don't.

Add to this the rise of feminism , the extreme feminism , the talk of all men being scumbags , the belief of some that's it's ok to say horrible thing's to men , female on male domestic violence being laughed at and generally looked upon as not being as serious as male on female, a man smacks a girls ass in a club it's sexual assault , a woman does it and it's funny, from looking at these boards alone from day to day you can tell most men have become almost afraid to approach a girl or say boo to them even when they are very in the wrong.

So has it never been a worst time to be a man? Are men becoming less of men because of this? And has that balance changed to a position where it's now men in need of equal rights?

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Jayop wrote: »

Yep, all those wars started by woman with woman leadership sending the boys off to fight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather

edit: snap

Junkyard Tom

It's less than 40 posts in and the opening salvo of AH's latest gender war has begun.

That's me out.

Enjoy.

Samaris

There is so no way that this thread is going to go anywhere good.

I am going to point out though that there -are- pushes for rights in situations like paternal custody of children (although I was -told-, so don't quote me on this, as I've not had chance to research it), that men who apply for custodial rights in the US are actually awarded it somewhere around the 70% mark) by men and women both. But it is quite annoying to read rants from (primarily males, sorry guys) online who, rather than seeing how they can get involved with shelters for male victims of domestic abuse and male homeless shelters etcetera, seem to think that it would be all okay as long as the feminist groups shut down and women suffered too.

It doesn't need to be a COMPETITION. Men don't have to -suffer- for women to have rights. But it IS going to have to be primarily men to identify the issues that affect them and to fight them - NOT fight women for them, because that is counter-productive and silly, but fight societal conditioning. Women did to some extent have to fight men, and that tends to get confusing nowadays, because when this all started, men did hold most, if not all, positions of power. Now it's a case of fighting society, fighting entrenched attitudes.

But the worst, worst place to start is from a position that it's all feminism's fault.

Jayop

orubiru wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather

In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organization aimed to shame men into enlisting in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.

This was joined by some prominent feminists and suffragettes of the time, such as Emmeline Pankhurst and her daughter Christabel. They, in addition to handing out the feathers, also lobbied to institute an involuntary universal draft, which included those who lacked votes due to being too young or not owning property.

What a joke. So a few woman encouraging the draft and men joining the army is in some way equitable with a few thousand years of men starting wars and forcing other men to fight in them.

biko

I long for the day when threads like this won't be necessary any more because women and men are truly equal.

orubiru

Jayop wrote: »

What a joke. So a few woman encouraging the draft and men joining the army is in some way equitable with a few thousand years of men starting wars and forcing other men to fight in them.

That is not the point I was making AT ALL.

I was responding to 2 points.

1. That women are not treated like human beings.

2. That the "deck" is stacked in favour of men.

I feel that my posts do enough to show these points are not valid.

Women are treated like human beings, with most men caring deeply about the women in their lives. I think I have illustrated this.

Men have it pretty bad too, the "deck" is stacked against them also. I think I have illustrated this.

Alternatively you could conclude that some men and some women are not treated like human beings.

Arguing that men have been used as a disposable resource in wars for many years does not support the argument that society favours men. Kind of the opposite actually.

I refer you to my initial response. Some people have it good. Some people have it bad. That's life.

If you think that women generally aren't treated like human beings then I can only assume you are posting from another planet and I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.

eviltwin

orubiru wrote: »

That is not the point I was making AT ALL.

I was responding to 2 points.

1. That women are not treated like human beings.

2. That the "deck" is stacked in favour of men.

I feel that my posts do enough to show these points are not valid.

Women are treated like human beings, with most men caring deeply about the women in their lives. I think I have illustrated this.

Men have it pretty bad too, the "deck" is stacked against them also. I think I have illustrated this.

Alternatively you could conclude that some men and some women are not treated like human beings.

Arguing that men have been used as a disposable resource in wars for many years does not support the argument that society favours men. Kind of the opposite actually.

I refer you to my initial response. Some people have it good. Some people have it bad. That's life.

If you think that women generally aren't treated like human beings then I can only assume you are posting from another planet and I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.

Your example is something from 100 years ago. It's not really relevant to today.

lawlolawl

eviltwin wrote: »

Your example is something from 100 years ago. It's not really relevant to today.

Can women now be drafted into the military of countries that have the draft?

Cries for "equality" annoy me when women aren't willing to take the responsibilities of equality along with the advantages.

orubiru

biko wrote: »

I long for the day when threads like this won't be necessary any more because women and men are truly equal.

It's a nice sentiment but as long as we have identity politics we'll always have someone claiming that Identity X has it better/worse than Identity Y.

"Men" and "Women" are not homogeneous groups and so we will never be able to engineer a society where two monolithic groups made up of almost infinitely diverse individuals are exactly equal.

Samaris

lawlolawl wrote: »

Can women now be drafted into the military of countries that have the draft?

Cries for "equality" annoy me when women aren't willing to take the responsibilities of equality along with the advantages.

I am going to have to point out here that a) a lot of men don't -want- women in the military and some have fought hard to get into that profession and b), if you want to remove an -entire generation- at once from a country, exactly who do you think is -going- to raise children, work in factories, keep the country moving?

hatrickpatrick

I'm pro equality and anti feminist, BUT I don't think it's fair to blame feminism for the systemic discrimination men face - what feminism can be blame for is denying its existence and trying to claim a female monopoly on being discriminated against.

I'm anti feminist because modern feminism perpetuates so many double standards and so much man shaming. Not a day goes by when some idiot doesn't write an article from a "feminist" perspective which, reading between the lines (or sometimes just reading the actual lines themselves) tells me I should feel guilty for having been born male. This had an absolutely appalling effect on my self esteem growing up and I am fully convinced that it's one of the reasons so many young men need to get locked before they have the courage to say hello to a woman they like, and this is something I cannot forgive feminists for. The no true Scotsman argument doesn't help either - take some responsibility for choosing to identify with a movement which espouses so much hatred.

edbrez

It's a disgrace that the top chefs, hairdressers, and fashion designers are mostly men. The sooner women gain a foothold in these male-dominated professions and allow their talents rise to the top the better for everyone involved (sarcasm icon please).

lawlolawl

Samaris wrote: »

Iif you want to remove an -entire generation- at once from a country, exactly who do you think is -going- to raise children, work in factories, keep the country moving?

The generations above the ones who would be the appropriate age for military service.

It's a bit rich of women to want equality in the workplace and equal opportunities during peacetime and then turn around and say "i now have to stay at home and mind the kids" once war breaks out and there are life and death consequences involved.

Also, as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, there isn't a huge rush of women to take "dirty" jobs either. They don't seem to mind at all that the gender representation in undesirable industries is heavily skewed in favor of men.

[Deleted User]

Irishcrx wrote: »

Just a conversation that popped up recently when out with friends and I guess something that has been on my mind for a while now as I watch differant friends, situations etc.

Has radical feminism and a push for equal rights gained so much momentum , pressure in the press , the workplace , social media that it has actually now swung the other way and it is men that are looking at oppression?

Maximus Alexander

orubiru wrote: »

Um, men have gone to war to be killed and mangled up by the tens of thousands. Who were they doing that for? It has happened before and it'll happen again.

Who historically worked dangerous, hard, labour intensive jobs to support their families?

My grandfathers certainly didn't work themselves into an early grave providing for wives and daughters that they didn't even consider to be human.

Now, and in the past, women have asked men to put their bodies and lives on the line. Men have answered the call.

We don't treat them like human beings though right?

No. Most men love the women in their lives and would even go so far as to sacrifice themselves for those women. Ah, we just don't treat them like human beings though, right?

Hey, we are more likely to be unemployed or homeless. We're more likely to commit suicide.

Sure, the deck is totally stacked in our favor.

Feminism is not an attack on you personally. It's not even an attack on men at all unless you listen to the fringe lunatics to whom the internet gives a voice.

When men were sent out to fight and die at war, who sent them? Was it women? And when women weren't allowed the opportunity to go and stand at their side, even if they had wanted to, who denied them that opportunity? Women?

What do you imagine happens to women anyway, when war sweeps across a nation or continent? Do you imagine them wearing pretty dresses and picking flowers out in the countryside? Or are they just suffering and starving and being raped, bombed and murdered anyway, only with much less agency or control of their fates than even the unfortunate men?

When your grandfather worked himself to the bone to provide for his family, who was it that decided the women couldn't go out and earn, or even get an education in many cases? Was it the women?

Men loved women, and that's supposed to offer them solace? People also love their dogs, or their cars, or their gardens, but that doesn't mean we afford any of those things the rights and responsibilities due to a human being.

The argument that men have also suffered through history takes nothing from the fact that women have invariably held the sh*ttier end of a sh*tty, sh*tty stick. And it's missing the point anyway, because the goal of feminism isn't to take from men and give to women.

Society is an entity all its own - nobody sat down and thought it out, drawing up a list of rules. It evolved over millennia and put limits and restrictions on all of us. It took women getting the sh*ttier end of the stick for a long time for them to finally stand up and hold a mirror to it, and we should be thanking them for that, not denigrating them. Because feminism is ultimately not about Women vs Men, it's about All Of Us vs bollox constructs and gender roles that tell people how to live their lives; take classes of people and tell them what they can and can't do, what's expected of them, and rob them of agency.

The fact that men still face difficulties of their own doesn't make feminism the enemy. The enemy is entrenched attitudes and stigmas that are examples of the very thing feminism has battled against. Our society might be a better place to live now than it has ever been before, but that doesn't mean it is without fault.

And if it helps, feminism means that more and more women are being afforded the right to fight and die on the battlefield should they so desire. So that's good. I guess?

PinkLemonade

People keep saying that there's no need for feminism in modern society. Until I have the right to choose what happens to my body I have to disagree.

edbrez

Radical feminism will result in bad plays getting produced in the Abbey because they were written by women.

eviltwin

A lot of Irish women do need feminism. Migrants and travellers still don't have a voice. It just isn't popular though and unfortunately with the internet the rare crazies who have really extreme views get all the attention which is the one thing they want.

hatrickpatrick

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Feminism is not an attack on you personally. It's not even an attack on men at all unless you listen to the fringe lunatics to whom the internet gives a voice.

This simply isn't true anymore. Attacks on men in general are no longer the province of "fringe lunatics", they appear in the media and in popular culture on a daily basis, and are spread by ordinary women calling themselves feminists, and by misguided men who don't realise the damage they're doing. That whole "man up" campaign is a good example.

py2006

Una Mulally who is a journalist (ehem, ammature blogger) for the Irish Times is a prime example of how the vile, poisonous influence of todays feminism has been allowed to infiltrate media.

Clampdown

Well if you think so, go and get a sex change. I love women, but I am quite glad to be born a man. When I used to drink I would like to sit on my own and have a pint and not be bothered. A lot of times a woman doing that is looked down on or gets unwanted attention. You have to be a lot more careful as well esp if you are on your own walking about. And any fella you are nice to might get the wrong idea so you have to be careful there, too. And they still usually make about 20% less money for the same work (not sure if that's true but it's what I've read.

While times are a changing and have been for a while there is still a lot of challenges/double standards for females to deal with. Women are expected to do a lot more around the house and are usually left having to rear kids mostly or totally on their own in the case of divorce (and also in some marriages!) They still get called slags for sleeping around while guys are practically applauded for the same behavior.

There is tremendous pressure on women to be thin yet voluptuous, beautiful, hairless and have their faces painted when in public and if they aren't being bubbly little beauties they get called female dogs or homophobic slurs.

If they don't have a husband and kids by their early 30's they are often given loads of hassle. Men get a bit of that but nowhere near as much. We get called bachelors they get called spinsters. No one minds if we can't cook.

I think the way that women are rebelling against this is a good thing and I'd be at it myself if I was a woman. Also I think it has had a positive effect on us men, nothing wrong with us learning to be a bit less brutish, learn to cook for ourselves, or learn to treat women with a bit more respect. After all it was a woman who brought us into the world and nursed us and for most of us, took the most care of us when we needed it.

I'm often ashamed to be a man when I see the way many of us act, but if I had the choice I'd pick to be a man every single time. Sometimes when women are ultra feminist I will admit it can make me a little uncomfortable because I think they are blaming me personally for whatever oppression they see or experience, but they're usually not. If they don't fight their corner who's going to do it for them?

We men aren't being emasculated by feminism, it's just that there is still a fair few of us that need manners put on them and need to be more aware of what's fair for women and what challenges they face that we don't have to by virtue of being male.

AnonoBoy

py2006 wrote: »

Una Mulally who is a journalist (ehem, ammature blogger) for the Irish Times is a prime example of how the vile, poisonous influence of todays feminism has been allowed to infiltrate media.

Go on then. I'm curious. Show me her vileness in action....

Lights On

Next thing you know they'll be looking to vote as well!

andekwarhola

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Definitely getting ridiculous.

I had a woman recently threatening me with court. I refused to pay for wheelchair access to her apartment. She claimed I had impeded her right to walk properly.

Has she ramped up her campaign against you since then?

Jayop

py2006 wrote: »

Una Mulally who is a journalist (ehem, ammature blogger) for the Irish Times is a prime example of how the vile, poisonous influence of todays feminism has been allowed to infiltrate media.

She's just an awful writer.

AnonoBoy

Jayop wrote: »

She's just an awful writer.

Sure that's feminism's fault and all I'd say.

Also I saw a woman playing tennis badly the other day. Feminism again.

Also a woman was rude to me in the shop the other day. Again, feminism.

Sure it's everywhere.

fatknacker

Women got the sh1te kicked into them for asking for the vote. That was less than 100 year ago. Something tells me this country or others won't be celebrating the suffragette movement in a tiny fraction of the scale that 1916 is.
Not to mention the creation of the Free State bode incredibly badly for women. The last 60-70 years has been an exercise in complete control and infliction of body horror that makes me wonder what was the point in celebrating freedom from the British empire to be imprisoned more horrifically by the church.

RDM_83 again

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

When women are treated like human beings, everybody wins. I find it hard to be annoyed about feminism making the deck less hilarious stacked in my gender's favour.

I'm going to restrict this to the 3rd/4th wave and 1st world.

Take the UK (because I don't want the bodily integrity line thrown out and also because there is more active feminist movement there).
In what "serious" metric are our generation of men doing better than women apart from depression (and men are over represented in other mental health disorders), rape/street harassment, and domestic violence (leading to harm milder is equal AFAIK)?
There is a massive list of issues where men do much much worse.

There is a lot of people arguing that Feminism is a mild movement for the wider good of society, that sounds well balanced and a reasonable argument but its worth actually looking at Feminist theory and practice.#

Feminism AFAIK basically requires a belief in the existence "patriarchy", before this is dismissed actually read some feminist writings and debate.
Because of the existence of the patriarchy it focuses on womens issues, mens issues are dealt with incidentally at best
e.g increasing paternall leave because its beneficial to women.

Feminism isn't the route of all evil at times its a way for women to remove systemic disadvantage and sexist attitudes.
Its a very poor way of achieving a better society though, a movement genuinely for equality wouldn't throwout "what about the menzzz" as a retort to problems of the other gender being raised.

seamus wrote: »

Far from this idea that the "gains" by feminism are making life increasingly more difficult for young men growing up, it's in fact freeing them. Freeing them to be who they want to be rather than what they think they're expected to be.
There is perhaps something of an imbalance in some regards where young boys are still being raised to conform to a particular way of life. But young women are not being raised to "fit" into the opposite side of that puzzle. And some commentators are claiming that this is resulting in increased disenfranchisement among young men who don't have the skills to cope in society.

That doesn't mean that we're raising women wrong, it means we're raising men wrong.

This serves as a good example of one of the subtle corrosive aspects of a lot of feminism, talk is always of toxic masculinity, lad culture, the patriarchy, basically the tone is the masculinity is dangerous and the cause of social ills, there is never a criticism of femininity, if you actually paid attention to a lot of current feminism as a guy you'd just constantly be ashamed of yourself.
I mean one of the simplest ways to achieve long lasting social equality would be to campaign against woman "reaching up" in relationships to high earners or high status individuals, funny that never comes up though.

py2006

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Sure that's feminism's fault and all I'd say.

Also I saw a woman playing tennis badly the other day. Feminism again.

Also a woman was rude to me in the shop the other day. Again, feminism.

Sure it's everywhere.

Is that deliberate or do you have a complete ignorance of the genuine criticism of modern feminism?

py2006

fatknacker wrote: »

Women got the sh1te kicked into them for asking for the vote. That was less than 100 year ago. Something tells me this country or others won't be celebrating the suffragette movement in a tiny fraction of the scale that 1916 is.
Not to mention the creation of the Free State bode incredibly badly for women. The last 60-70 years has been an exercise in complete control and infliction of body horror that makes me wonder what was the point in celebrating freedom from the British empire to be imprisoned more horrifically by the church.

The common man did not have a vote back then either. It was wealthy land and property owners. Feminists mislead people into believing men stopped them voting.

It was a class issue and not (fully) a gender issue.