Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

Irishcrx

Just a conversation that popped up recently when out with friends and I guess something that has been on my mind for a while now as I watch differant friends, situations etc.

Has radical feminism and a push for equal rights gained so much momentum , pressure in the press , the workplace , social media that it has actually now swung the other way and it is men that are looking at oppression?

A couple of scenario's swing to mind , the company I work for have had several pushes to be seen to be an equal opportunity employer , which they are , however this also included women in positions of ppwer (IE Unit leaders and Directors) they have often appointed women to these positions to make up their numbers balance while more qualified men were turned down for the job in favour of the news letter saying we have met the European quota - This isn't right.

Single father rights - Or lack there of, absolute joke of a system - Several friends of mine are single fathers and being dragged through hell to see their children even though they are great fathers. All the power with the ex girlfriend and the bitterness , the law says it protects the children but it really is protecting the mother and many abuse this position to exact revenge on an ex - Good father need rights equal to mothers regardless of marriage - Bad ones don't.

Add to this the rise of feminism , the extreme feminism , the talk of all men being scumbags , the belief of some that's it's ok to say horrible thing's to men , female on male domestic violence being laughed at and generally looked upon as not being as serious as male on female, a man smacks a girls ass in a club it's sexual assault , a woman does it and it's funny, from looking at these boards alone from day to day you can tell most men have become almost afraid to approach a girl or say boo to them even when they are very in the wrong.

So has it never been a worst time to be a man? Are men becoming less of men because of this? And has that balance changed to a position where it's now men in need of equal rights?

Jayop

In pretty much every circumstance apart from the family courts the male will have an advantage. Woman are still the more oppressed of the two sexes.

AnonoBoy

Nah. I wouldn't say say so.

discus

It's a great time to be a man. Just ignore all that **** like marriage, internet feminism, feminism in the press etc, and just enjoy a relationship with a decent partner if you can find one.

No point moaning about it, it's only a phase after all. Sure feminism is eating itself at the minute, just watch it destroy itself this year.

discus

Jayop wrote: »

In pretty much every circumstance apart from the family courts the male will have an advantage. Woman are still the more oppressed of the two sexes.

Who's oppressing them? There's no laws oppressing women. Neither are there any discriminatory hiring practices out there, unless you account for the 2:1 hiring ratio for women being hired into certain fields... but we don't talk about that, do we?

mansize

We have bodily autonomy though

Chips Lovell

Here's a discussion that's never been had on the internet.

AnonoBoy

You know what?

Feminism is class.

See ye later. I'm bored of these conversations already.

Irishcrx

Irishcrx wrote: »

Single father rights - Or lack there of, absolute joke of a system - Several friends of mine are single fathers and being dragged through hell to see their children even though they are great fathers. All the power with the ex girlfriend and the bitterness , the law says it protects the children but it really is protecting the mother and many abuse this position to exact revenge on an ex - Good father need rights equal to mothers regardless of marriage - Bad ones don't.

A mother will invariably get custody of young children, which is understandable and is consistent with other countries with similar legal systems, Britain, the USA etc.

I wouldn't draw generalisations about fault and bitterness and who is the good parent in a thread about the sexes. Some bitterness and some "coaching" may creep into the frame when a relationship breaks down. I wouldn't say many mothers are abusing the legal process to exact revenge, but some certainly do.

R.D. aka MR.D

The issues you mention are very different topics and while it might appear at first glance that feminism is to blame for them, I don't think that's strictly true.

In particular, I think it's the sexist idea that women should take care of the children that causes fathers to have so few rights. It's yet another thing in Irish law that needs updating to modern times.

So how that can be related to women getting jobs just because they are women, I don't know.

It's also the less well informed who still laugh at female on male domestic violence or sexual assault.

super_furry

Yeah........no thanks.

dav3

First world problems tbh OP. I don't know how you'd cope if we actually were oppressed.

Greenmachine

For all the talk of the Patriarch from feminist, it is more women who hold other women back.
Gender quotas are idiotic, and serve no one. Both sides of the debate love to just sling mud at one another.

Jayop

discus wrote: »

Who's oppressing them? There's no laws oppressing women. Neither are there any discriminatory hiring practices out there, unless you account for the 2:1 hiring ratio for women being hired into certain fields... but we don't talk about that, do we?

It's my opinion not a researched viewpoint so I'm not going to be handing out sources.

1) 2:1 hiring rations I take it you're referring to things like nursing and teaching? If so then it's much much more likely that it's purely down to the fact that that's the ratio of people entering those fields and not discriminatory hiring practices. In fact in the case of NS teaching I've been told that schools are crying out for male teachers.

2) Surely the ratio of men Vs woman in other trades is skewed even more in favour of men. Bricklaying, carpentry, auto mechanics etc.

3) There's laws against discrimination in hiring but it's very hard to prove that it takes place. I work in a HR type job now and I can assure you that certain employers will favour white male new hires over most others including more qualified candidates.

4) There's more discrimination or sexism than just in employment. Go to a pub on a Saturday night and see woman being harassed constantly by plebs who seem to assume that just because the woman are out then they're fair game to annoy for the night.

Maximus Alexander

When women are treated like human beings, everybody wins. I find it hard to be annoyed about feminism making the deck less hilarious stacked in my gender's favour.

osarusan

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Here's a discussion that's never been had on the internet.

We might have had it once or twice before, but we'll solve it for good this time.

seamus

I can totally understand the "feminism is only about women and is detrimental to men's rights" point of view, but an actual offshoot of feminism is the increasing recognition that, "Hey, wait a sec, men actually do have it pretty sh1tty in some regards too".

The shrill "all men are rapists" stuff is few and far between. The internet makes it sound like they're everywhere, but realistically you don't encounter many of them in real life.

An author friend of my wife's would be a hippie-dippie type, very strong on her feminist stuff and once of the "destroy the oppressive patriarchy, all women should wear shirts and pants so they don't conform to male-imposed ideas about beauty" ilk. Then she wrote a blog post about how she'd decided to let her toddler son watch Peppa Pig one day and the realisation hit her like a tonne of bricks - men are just as heavily subjected to stereotypes, expectations of behaviour, and discriminatory practices as women are.

And contrary to the idea that men are ignored, feminism has actually brought men's rights more to the front. If women's rights and the shackles imposed on women by society weren't discussed in the 1950's, then neither were men's.

Gender-based discrimination is not male-imposed oppression. It's oppression that society foisted upon itself. And the vast vast majority of people who call themselves feminist, recognise this.

Far from this idea that the "gains" by feminism are making life increasingly more difficult for young men growing up, it's in fact freeing them. Freeing them to be who they want to be rather than what they think they're expected to be.
There is perhaps something of an imbalance in some regards where young boys are still being raised to conform to a particular way of life. But young women are not being raised to "fit" into the opposite side of that puzzle. And some commentators are claiming that this is resulting in increased disenfranchisement among young men who don't have the skills to cope in society.

That doesn't mean that we're raising women wrong, it means we're raising men wrong.

Junkyard Tom

We're all God's children lads.

Maximus Alexander

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

We're all God's children lads and lasses.

Excuse you.

orubiru

Nah, I'd say things are pretty bad for everyone. Or pretty good. Depends on who you ask.

Yeah, you might be able to look at individuals and say this woman has it better than this man. Or you might end up saying that man has it better than that women.

Looking at "Men" and "Women" in a general sense and trying to come up with a model that accurately reflects reality is a near impossible task.

Everyone is different. Society "oppresses" all kinds of different people in all different kinds of ways. Everyone has their struggles and successes. The game might be rigged in your favor over here and rigged against you over there. Good luck to anyone who wants to come up with a grand unified theory for human society.

In countries like Ireland, the UK, Canada etc Feminism simply is the worlds most privileged women whining about how oppressed they are. Coming up with ever more convoluted hypotheses on how women just have it so bad.

Unfortunately your post reads like the same thing from a male perspective. Men have problems, yes, but it's not the fault of women. It's not "oppression".

There is a double standard in some aspects of life but that works both ways, I think. In Ireland, we basically all have equal rights when it comes to employment, education etc. So it's probably not that bad, even when it seems like it's not that good either.

The worlds 62 richest people have as much wealth as the worlds 3 billion poorest. That's inequality.

SterlingArcher

Definitely getting ridiculous.

I had a woman recently threatening me with court. I refused to pay for wheelchair access to her apartment. She claimed I had impeded her right to walk properly.

Junkyard Tom

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Definitely getting ridiculous.

I had a woman recently threatening me with court. I refused to pay for wheelchair access to her apartment. She claimed I had impeded her right to walk properly.

That's not gender specific. That's an accessibility issue.

Jayop

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That's not gender specific. That's an accessibility issue.

I assumed it was a joke that I didn't get.

orubiru

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

When women are treated like human beings, everybody wins. I find it hard to be annoyed about feminism making the deck less hilarious stacked in my gender's favour.

Um, men have gone to war to be killed and mangled up by the tens of thousands. Who were they doing that for? It has happened before and it'll happen again.

Who historically worked dangerous, hard, labour intensive jobs to support their families?

My grandfathers certainly didn't work themselves into an early grave providing for wives and daughters that they didn't even consider to be human.

Now, and in the past, women have asked men to put their bodies and lives on the line. Men have answered the call.

We don't treat them like human beings though right?

No. Most men love the women in their lives and would even go so far as to sacrifice themselves for those women. Ah, we just don't treat them like human beings though, right?

Hey, we are more likely to be unemployed or homeless. We're more likely to commit suicide.

Sure, the deck is totally stacked in our favor.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That's not gender specific. That's an accessibility issue.

I think the joke is that he knocked her bandy while engaging in indoor sports. Now she can't walk.

It's rare I get a subtle joke and even rarer I get to explain one.

You've made my day.

Junkyard Tom

Jayop wrote: »

I assumed it was a joke that I didn't get.

Maybe it is? Regardless, there are people out there who will consider all behaviour by women that appears assertive or confrontational as 'that krrrrrrazzzy feminazism' regardless of the merits of the issue.

AnonoBoy

Candie wrote: »

I think the joke is that he knocked her bandy while engaging in indoor sports. Now she can't walk.

It's rare I get a subtle joke and even rarer I get to explain one.

You've made my day.

Way too subtle a joke about riding for AH.

Junkyard Tom

Candie wrote: »

It's rare I get a subtle joke and even rarer I get to explain one.

I'd be fairly tuned into that type of thing and even with your explanation I had to read it twice to get it.

You've made my day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFloZbT99oE

Jayop

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Maybe it is? Regardless, there are people out there who will put all behaviour by women that appears assertive or confrontational as 'that krrrrrrazzzy feminazism' regardless of the merits of the issue.

Oh without a doubt.

Jayop

orubiru wrote: »

Now, and in the past, women have asked men to put their bodies and lives on the line. Men have answered the call.

We don't treat them like human beings though right?

:pac::pac::pac:

Yep, all those wars started by woman with woman leadership sending the boys off to fight.

orubiru

Jayop wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

Yep, all those wars started by woman with woman leadership sending the boys off to fight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather

In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organization aimed to shame men into enlisting in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.

This was joined by some prominent feminists and suffragettes of the time, such as Emmeline Pankhurst and her daughter Christabel. They, in addition to handing out the feathers, also lobbied to institute an involuntary universal draft, which included those who lacked votes due to being too young or not owning property.

discus

Jayop wrote: »

Yep, all those wars started by woman with woman leadership sending the boys off to fight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather

edit: snap

Junkyard Tom

It's less than 40 posts in and the opening salvo of AH's latest gender war has begun.

That's me out.

Enjoy.

Samaris

There is so no way that this thread is going to go anywhere good.

I am going to point out though that there -are- pushes for rights in situations like paternal custody of children (although I was -told-, so don't quote me on this, as I've not had chance to research it), that men who apply for custodial rights in the US are actually awarded it somewhere around the 70% mark) by men and women both. But it is quite annoying to read rants from (primarily males, sorry guys) online who, rather than seeing how they can get involved with shelters for male victims of domestic abuse and male homeless shelters etcetera, seem to think that it would be all okay as long as the feminist groups shut down and women suffered too.

It doesn't need to be a COMPETITION. Men don't have to -suffer- for women to have rights. But it IS going to have to be primarily men to identify the issues that affect them and to fight them - NOT fight women for them, because that is counter-productive and silly, but fight societal conditioning. Women did to some extent have to fight men, and that tends to get confusing nowadays, because when this all started, men did hold most, if not all, positions of power. Now it's a case of fighting society, fighting entrenched attitudes.

But the worst, worst place to start is from a position that it's all feminism's fault.

Jayop

orubiru wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather

In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organization aimed to shame men into enlisting in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.

This was joined by some prominent feminists and suffragettes of the time, such as Emmeline Pankhurst and her daughter Christabel. They, in addition to handing out the feathers, also lobbied to institute an involuntary universal draft, which included those who lacked votes due to being too young or not owning property.

What a joke. So a few woman encouraging the draft and men joining the army is in some way equitable with a few thousand years of men starting wars and forcing other men to fight in them.

biko

I long for the day when threads like this won't be necessary any more because women and men are truly equal.

orubiru

Jayop wrote: »

What a joke. So a few woman encouraging the draft and men joining the army is in some way equitable with a few thousand years of men starting wars and forcing other men to fight in them.

That is not the point I was making AT ALL.

I was responding to 2 points.

1. That women are not treated like human beings.

2. That the "deck" is stacked in favour of men.

I feel that my posts do enough to show these points are not valid.

Women are treated like human beings, with most men caring deeply about the women in their lives. I think I have illustrated this.

Men have it pretty bad too, the "deck" is stacked against them also. I think I have illustrated this.

Alternatively you could conclude that some men and some women are not treated like human beings.

Arguing that men have been used as a disposable resource in wars for many years does not support the argument that society favours men. Kind of the opposite actually.

I refer you to my initial response. Some people have it good. Some people have it bad. That's life.

If you think that women generally aren't treated like human beings then I can only assume you are posting from another planet and I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.

eviltwin

orubiru wrote: »

That is not the point I was making AT ALL.

I was responding to 2 points.

1. That women are not treated like human beings.

2. That the "deck" is stacked in favour of men.

I feel that my posts do enough to show these points are not valid.

Women are treated like human beings, with most men caring deeply about the women in their lives. I think I have illustrated this.

Men have it pretty bad too, the "deck" is stacked against them also. I think I have illustrated this.

Alternatively you could conclude that some men and some women are not treated like human beings.

Arguing that men have been used as a disposable resource in wars for many years does not support the argument that society favours men. Kind of the opposite actually.

I refer you to my initial response. Some people have it good. Some people have it bad. That's life.

If you think that women generally aren't treated like human beings then I can only assume you are posting from another planet and I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.

Your example is something from 100 years ago. It's not really relevant to today.

lawlolawl

eviltwin wrote: »

Your example is something from 100 years ago. It's not really relevant to today.

Can women now be drafted into the military of countries that have the draft?

Cries for "equality" annoy me when women aren't willing to take the responsibilities of equality along with the advantages.

orubiru

biko wrote: »

I long for the day when threads like this won't be necessary any more because women and men are truly equal.

It's a nice sentiment but as long as we have identity politics we'll always have someone claiming that Identity X has it better/worse than Identity Y.

"Men" and "Women" are not homogeneous groups and so we will never be able to engineer a society where two monolithic groups made up of almost infinitely diverse individuals are exactly equal.

Samaris

lawlolawl wrote: »

Can women now be drafted into the military of countries that have the draft?

Cries for "equality" annoy me when women aren't willing to take the responsibilities of equality along with the advantages.

I am going to have to point out here that a) a lot of men don't -want- women in the military and some have fought hard to get into that profession and b), if you want to remove an -entire generation- at once from a country, exactly who do you think is -going- to raise children, work in factories, keep the country moving?

hatrickpatrick

I'm pro equality and anti feminist, BUT I don't think it's fair to blame feminism for the systemic discrimination men face - what feminism can be blame for is denying its existence and trying to claim a female monopoly on being discriminated against.

I'm anti feminist because modern feminism perpetuates so many double standards and so much man shaming. Not a day goes by when some idiot doesn't write an article from a "feminist" perspective which, reading between the lines (or sometimes just reading the actual lines themselves) tells me I should feel guilty for having been born male. This had an absolutely appalling effect on my self esteem growing up and I am fully convinced that it's one of the reasons so many young men need to get locked before they have the courage to say hello to a woman they like, and this is something I cannot forgive feminists for. The no true Scotsman argument doesn't help either - take some responsibility for choosing to identify with a movement which espouses so much hatred.

edbrez

It's a disgrace that the top chefs, hairdressers, and fashion designers are mostly men. The sooner women gain a foothold in these male-dominated professions and allow their talents rise to the top the better for everyone involved (sarcasm icon please).

lawlolawl

Samaris wrote: »

Iif you want to remove an -entire generation- at once from a country, exactly who do you think is -going- to raise children, work in factories, keep the country moving?

The generations above the ones who would be the appropriate age for military service.

It's a bit rich of women to want equality in the workplace and equal opportunities during peacetime and then turn around and say "i now have to stay at home and mind the kids" once war breaks out and there are life and death consequences involved.

Also, as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, there isn't a huge rush of women to take "dirty" jobs either. They don't seem to mind at all that the gender representation in undesirable industries is heavily skewed in favor of men.

Irishcrx

Irishcrx wrote: »

Just a conversation that popped up recently when out with friends and I guess something that has been on my mind for a while now as I watch differant friends, situations etc.

Has radical feminism and a push for equal rights gained so much momentum , pressure in the press , the workplace , social media that it has actually now swung the other way and it is men that are looking at oppression?

No

Maximus Alexander

orubiru wrote: »

Um, men have gone to war to be killed and mangled up by the tens of thousands. Who were they doing that for? It has happened before and it'll happen again.

Who historically worked dangerous, hard, labour intensive jobs to support their families?

My grandfathers certainly didn't work themselves into an early grave providing for wives and daughters that they didn't even consider to be human.

Now, and in the past, women have asked men to put their bodies and lives on the line. Men have answered the call.

We don't treat them like human beings though right?

No. Most men love the women in their lives and would even go so far as to sacrifice themselves for those women. Ah, we just don't treat them like human beings though, right?

Hey, we are more likely to be unemployed or homeless. We're more likely to commit suicide.

Sure, the deck is totally stacked in our favor.

Feminism is not an attack on you personally. It's not even an attack on men at all unless you listen to the fringe lunatics to whom the internet gives a voice.

When men were sent out to fight and die at war, who sent them? Was it women? And when women weren't allowed the opportunity to go and stand at their side, even if they had wanted to, who denied them that opportunity? Women?

What do you imagine happens to women anyway, when war sweeps across a nation or continent? Do you imagine them wearing pretty dresses and picking flowers out in the countryside? Or are they just suffering and starving and being raped, bombed and murdered anyway, only with much less agency or control of their fates than even the unfortunate men?

When your grandfather worked himself to the bone to provide for his family, who was it that decided the women couldn't go out and earn, or even get an education in many cases? Was it the women?

Men loved women, and that's supposed to offer them solace? People also love their dogs, or their cars, or their gardens, but that doesn't mean we afford any of those things the rights and responsibilities due to a human being.

The argument that men have also suffered through history takes nothing from the fact that women have invariably held the sh*ttier end of a sh*tty, sh*tty stick. And it's missing the point anyway, because the goal of feminism isn't to take from men and give to women.

Society is an entity all its own - nobody sat down and thought it out, drawing up a list of rules. It evolved over millennia and put limits and restrictions on all of us. It took women getting the sh*ttier end of the stick for a long time for them to finally stand up and hold a mirror to it, and we should be thanking them for that, not denigrating them. Because feminism is ultimately not about Women vs Men, it's about All Of Us vs bollox constructs and gender roles that tell people how to live their lives; take classes of people and tell them what they can and can't do, what's expected of them, and rob them of agency.

The fact that men still face difficulties of their own doesn't make feminism the enemy. The enemy is entrenched attitudes and stigmas that are examples of the very thing feminism has battled against. Our society might be a better place to live now than it has ever been before, but that doesn't mean it is without fault.

And if it helps, feminism means that more and more women are being afforded the right to fight and die on the battlefield should they so desire. So that's good. I guess?

PinkLemonade

People keep saying that there's no need for feminism in modern society. Until I have the right to choose what happens to my body I have to disagree.

edbrez

Radical feminism will result in bad plays getting produced in the Abbey because they were written by women.

eviltwin

A lot of Irish women do need feminism. Migrants and travellers still don't have a voice. It just isn't popular though and unfortunately with the internet the rare crazies who have really extreme views get all the attention which is the one thing they want.

hatrickpatrick

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Feminism is not an attack on you personally. It's not even an attack on men at all unless you listen to the fringe lunatics to whom the internet gives a voice.

This simply isn't true anymore. Attacks on men in general are no longer the province of "fringe lunatics", they appear in the media and in popular culture on a daily basis, and are spread by ordinary women calling themselves feminists, and by misguided men who don't realise the damage they're doing. That whole "man up" campaign is a good example.

py2006

Una Mulally who is a journalist (ehem, ammature blogger) for the Irish Times is a prime example of how the vile, poisonous influence of todays feminism has been allowed to infiltrate media.