UFC 196: McGregor v Diaz

shrapnel222 · 09-03-2016 10:48AM

John_D80 wrote: »

Hadn't even considered Cowboy to be honest but he did say before he fought ''the other cowboy'' that the weight cut would be a lot easier to 170 so I'm assuming he still cut some weight.

ONE FC's new rules are a great foundation to build on for the future. There are a few minor flaws but hats off to them as an organisation for saying ''enough is enough''.

what are one FCs new rules?

John_D80 · 09-03-2016 10:56AM

shrapnel222 wrote: »

what are one FCs new rules?

Cant find a link that explains it adequately but its basically a series of weigh-ins both in and out of competition, all year round, to ensure that fighters are competing as close as possible to their walking around weight.

My understanding of it is that they are only allowed to deviate a certain percentage above or below their weight, at different stages during their fight preparations or they can be penalised or barred from fighting.

The whole idea being that fighters will be arriving in the ring without having dangerously dehydrated themselves.

shrapnel222 · 09-03-2016 11:03AM

John_D80 wrote: »

Cant find a link that explains it adequately but its basically a series of weigh-ins both in and out of competition, all year round, to ensure that fighters are competing as close as possible to their walking around weight.

My understanding of it is that they are only allowed to deviate a certain percentage above or below their weight, at different stages during their fight preparations or they can be penalised or barred from fighting.

The whole idea being that fighters will be arriving in the ring without having dangerously dehydrated themselves.

wow, sounds crazy! all year round is overkill surely.

For me i'd like to see reach weight maybe +- 5% maybe the fortnight before with weigh ins every day, couple of days. Which means they can cut but have to stay at that weight for a relative length of time.

JustShon · 09-03-2016 11:08AM

shrapnel222 wrote: »

wow, sounds crazy! all year round is overkill surely.

Depends on how often the weigh-ins are.

I can't see UFC going for this though since they like to make a big event around weigh-ins and people would soon get sick of it if they tried that every 3 months for every fighter.

John_D80 · 09-03-2016 11:16AM

shrapnel222 wrote: »

wow, sounds crazy! all year round is overkill surely.

For me i'd like to see reach weight maybe +- 5% maybe the fortnight before with weigh ins every day, couple of days. Which means they can cut but have to stay at that weight for a relative length of time.

By all year round, I mean they are weighed both in and out of competition. Its really not restrictive at all and from what I have read the whole process was developed by consulting with fighters and coaches, as well as doctors.

In most instances a guy 8 weeks into a ten week camp is going to weigh in different than he did when he started camp but the ONE system accounts for all this.

John_D80 · 09-03-2016 11:19AM

JustShon wrote: »

Depends on how often the weigh-ins are.

I can't see UFC going for this though since they like to make a big event around weigh-ins and people would soon get sick of it if they tried that every 3 months for every fighter.

I think the UFC to be fair are going to come around to the dangers of weight cutting soon and initiate a change if they havent already.

One of their most public faces, Joe Rogan, absolutely abhors the process and is very vocal in his opposition of it.

StringerBell · 09-03-2016 11:27AM

Gamebred wrote: »

When people are saying hes fighting midgets,it becomes a height discussion.

He was fighting midgets though relative to himself, and not just height wise

I wouldn't overplay the height aspect of it, reach is a different thing alright and Conor is just physically so stacked for that FW division it is tough to see him getting beat there.

LW is more of a contest but there is nothing to suggest he cannot have success there, once he learns from his mistakes. WW is a pie in the sky stuff I have always felt, and no way I can see him touching the top guys of that division. Maybe in the future but I can't see him staying in the fight business too long either.

Too much easy money for him to be made out there that don't involved brutal cuts, tough camps and guys trying to take your head off.

RedemptionZ · 09-03-2016 12:13PM

He could have easily lost to Mendes If Chad hadn't gassed. We don't know anything about the Aldo fight as it ended in the first exchanges. Had Aldo tried to wear out Conor's legs it could have been different. He could easily lose to Frankie, who is also very hard to knock out and is a great wrestler who will have a full camp. I can see all three of those beating Conor. Not that they necessarily will, but he's far from invincible in the division.

Tazzimus · 09-03-2016 12:15PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Fighting smaller men in Light Heavyweight? What do I think of that? This thread isn't about Jon Jones incase you misread the title. Although unrelated, unlike Conor talking about clearing out the UFC roster in 4 months, Nate probably would go the distance with Jones and come out standing after taking a hiding

This genuinely made me laugh.
I'm a big Diaz fan but Nate would be absolutely demolished by Jones in fairly quick fashion.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I don't agree with any coward not moving up if they dominate a certain weight, including Jones. 4 years defending the same title when there's no roof over his head is a joke. Although with Jones there is some pretty even match-ups and it often goes the distance. There is still that challenge there, unlike with McGregor who is not fighting at his natural weight class and has breezed through the division

Jones is miles ahead of the rest of the LHW roster and it's shown seeing as none of them could beat him...

On the natural weight classes thing.

HW cut to make the max limit (most)
LHW are HW cutting down
MW are LHW cutting down
WW are MW cutting down

Are you seeing a pattern here?

Gamebred · 09-03-2016 02:04PM

RedemptionZ wrote: »

He could have easily lost to Mendes If Chad hadn't gassed. We don't know anything about the Aldo fight as it ended in the first exchanges. Had Aldo tried to wear out Conor's legs it could have been different. He could easily lose to Frankie, who is also very hard to knock out and is a great wrestler who will have a full camp. I can see all three of those beating Conor. Not that they necessarily will, but he's far from invincible in the division.

All could've woulda shoulda the facts are if he never wins another fight he will still always be remembered as the man to KO Aldo unconscious,you cannot take his mendes or aldo wins away from him,its mma anything could happen Aldo is as high level as they come anybody can beat anybody on their day so not disagreeing he could potentially beat Conor but facts are facts he had his chance and was put to sleep.

jigglypuffstuff · 09-03-2016 02:32PM

Mellor wrote: »

I'd have guessed his weight cut was bigger at FW, given how awful he looks on the scales. But we never got to see him cutting to 155 either.
72kg to 66kg isn't an massive big weight cut.

Exactly. MMA fighters are cutting weight closer to wrestlers than kickboxers/boxers.

I think the above bit highlights the issue. You are basing your opinion on your experiences as a kickboxer. Which is completely understandable thing to do btw, but it's also skewing your perception.

A kickboxer who walks around at 74kg might belong at 70kg/154lbs (let's say he competes under K-1 divisions). But that would make for a undersized LW in MMA. In MMA it's probably a very typical FW. A big FW (like Conor) would be above that.

The point of the question was to gauge your perception of a harsh/normal cuts. Don't worry, I wasn't looking to set up a kickboxing match

Well planned CKD, and some extra cardio is simply, pardon the pun, not going to cut it in MMA. Even at an lower level the normal approach would be some combination of CKD, salt restriction, water loading, hot salt baths/ steam/sauna, clear bowels. Followed by rehydration - carb loading.

MMA divisions are big, so people often fall between them in terms of their natural division. Conor is absolutely a big FW, but the Conor that fought in the octagon in 2015 would have way undersized at LW.

Again, I can only speak from my experience, but on reflection those two cuts from 73 to 66 were brutal for me, although im guessing this was partially due to being very lean...dropping 15lbs when you walk around at a low bf% is much harder than dropping 7-8...i felt like absolute crap tbh...but i wont say there wasnt a huge power difference there, because there was

But as you rightly pointed out, there's a huge difference between MMA and kickboxing Weight classes

That was my only point really, he is a big featherweight, which is in itself an advantage (not a game changer, however). Thats why i imagine he'll have some better fights @LW (More entertaining, longer lasting), but then you have guys like Diaz who are big LW's who can take those punches for days, so it requires a change in technique from him,

He cant expect to knock these guys out so easy. I like Conor tbh, but I feel as though he places too much of an emphasis on finishing things quick..this holds fine in FW ( thats why I used the word "bully"

), but at LW or WW I think he needs a different approach...

riffmongous · 09-03-2016 03:20PM

John_D80 wrote: »

Right thats all stuff that everyone already knows. Dont know what it has to do with the post of mine that you quoted to be honest.

I was asking the guy if he would help me understand his point better and tell me a few elite level fighters that fight at their natural weight because I cant think of a single one.

With reference to weight cuts, McGregor is being ridiculed for doing exactly what every fighter in the promotion does, just because he does it better than them.

Frankie Edgar won the title at his natural weight and only moved down after he was unlucky with the judges

BJ Penn of course, Machida?

Gamebred · 09-03-2016 03:30PM

I think Gunnar nelson is one of the very few who fight at their natural weight in the ufc,could make 155 with some effort imo.

Tigger · 09-03-2016 03:32PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii3iuOncRwo

Foxtrol · 09-03-2016 03:38PM

pone2012 wrote: »

That was my only point really, he is a big featherweight, which is in itself an advantage (not a game changer, however). Thats why i imagine he'll have some better fights @LW (More entertaining, longer lasting), but then you have guys like Diaz who are big LW's who can take those punches for days, so it requires a change in technique from him,

He cant expect to knock these guys out so easy. I like Conor tbh, but I feel as though he places too much of an emphasis on finishing things quick..this holds fine in FW ( thats why I used the word "bully" ), but at LW or WW I think he needs a different approach...

The thing is he hasn’t always gone for finishing things straight away at FW. The Holloway, Siver, Mendes fights he picked them apart a bit before going for killer shots.

For some reason he decided he was going to continuously swing for the fences from the off with the guy with the best chin that he’s ever fought, it was arrogant and completely idiotic.

JustShon · 09-03-2016 03:42PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

The thing is he hasn’t always gone for finishing things straight away at FW. The Holloway, Siver, Mendes fights he picked them apart a bit before going for killer shots.

For some reason he decided he was going to continuously swing for the fences from the off with the guy with the best chin that he’s ever fought, it was arrogant and completely idiotic.

Pride / arrogance (depending on your opinion of him) I reckon. He said more than once that he thought Diaz was a one-dimensional fighter and generally treated him like a thick brute.

He overestimated his own strength and underestimated Diaz.

Fall_Guy · 09-03-2016 04:28PM

JustShon wrote: »

Pride / arrogance (depending on your opinion of him) I reckon. He said more than once that he thought Diaz was a one-dimensional fighter and generally treated him like a thick brute.

He overestimated his own strength and underestimated Diaz.

I'm not sure that was it, to be honest. At the risk of veering into the realm of bro-psychology, I got the feeling that Conor was far less relaxed from the get-go than he usually is in the ring. He normally fights so calmly that even when throwing power shots and firing off spinning kicks and jumping switch kicks etc to beat the band, he expends the minimum of energy. He looked like he had a major adrenaline dump in that fight.

I know this sounds ridiculous and I Usually rate Conor's mental strength as one of his best assets, but I feel he was a little rattled in this one and he felt the pressure to make a statement coming into it. I just feel that there is no way a man of his level of fitness gasses that badly in under a round unless anxiety plays a part.

JustShon · 09-03-2016 04:33PM

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I'm not sure that was it, to be honest. At the risk of veering into the realm of bro-psychology, I got the feeling that Conor was far less relaxed from the get-go than he usually is in the ring. He normally fight so calmly that even when throwing power shots and firing off spinning kicks and jumping switch kicks etc to beat the band, he expends the minimum of energy. He looked like he had a major adrenaline dump in that fight.

I know this sounds ridiculous and I Usually rate Conor's mental strength as one of his best assets, but I feel he was a little rattled in this one and he felt the pressure to make a statement coming into it. I just feel that there is no way a man of his level of fitness gasses that badly in under a round unless anxiety plays a part.

Do you reckon his attempts to end it in round one were more out of desperation then? Sort of an "I'd better put this guy down quick or else..." mentality?

riffmongous · 09-03-2016 04:58PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

The thing is he hasn’t always gone for finishing things straight away at FW. The Holloway, Siver, Mendes fights he picked them apart a bit before going for killer shots.

For some reason he decided he was going to continuously swing for the fences from the off with the guy with the best chin that he’s ever fought, it was arrogant and completely idiotic.

There was a lot of hype about him after the quick Aldo knockout and he wouldn't be the first guy to start believing his own hype, I mean we all bought into it too (358 voted for knockout and 34 by points in the poll). Let's just hope he learns from it now and keeps himself grounded

sonofenoch · 09-03-2016 05:03PM

riffmongous wrote: »

There was a lot of hype about him after the quick Aldo knockout and he wouldn't be the first guy to start believing his own hype, I mean we all bought into it too (358 voted for knockout and 34 by points in the poll). Let's just hope he learns from it now and keeps himself grounded

And puts the Mystic Mac business away in a box for good....predictions are a nonsense and played a part in his downfall Saturday, he was so eager to finish it in 1 just like he said

John_D80 · 09-03-2016 05:09PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Frankie Edgar won the title at his natural weight and only moved down after he was unlucky with the judges

BJ Penn of course, Machida?

Frankie walks around at 155?

Wow I thought he was quite a bit bigger than that, around 160-165.

BJ Penn, your definitely right on but Machida has to cut to get to MW, definitely. Hasn't fought at LHW for nearly 3 years now AFAIK.

Point I was getting at is that 99% of fighters are cutting weight so why should Mcgregor get criticised for it. Machida and Edgar are actually two examples that support this as they both went down weight divisions.

riffmongous · 09-03-2016 05:31PM

John_D80 wrote: »

Frankie walks around at 155?

Wow I thought he was quite a bit bigger than that, around 160-165.

BJ Penn, your definitely right on but Machida has to cut to get to MW, definitely. Hasn't fought at LHW for nearly 3 years now AFAIK.

Point I was getting at is that 99% of fighters are cutting weight so why should Mcgregor get criticised for it. Machida and Edgar are actually two examples that support this as they both went down weight divisions.

I agree, it's the nature of the beast really, I think the rules should be changed to put limits on it but you can't blame the fighters as long as they are making weight. Although I do give extra respect for someone who doesn't cut very much, like Edgar, I thought he was like a hero when he was champ

Him and Machida went down for extra opportunities rather than to gain a size advantage

"He walks around and he's 157," Henry continued. "He comes back from Disneyland after his last fight or two fights ago and he's 157, 158 or 159. I don't think Frankie gets enough credit for what he's accomplishing and doing in MMA."

http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/8/14/3241872/frankie-edgar-boxing-coach-bantamweight-featherweight-mma-news

Now you could say he didn't have much choice at fighting LW back in those days when there were no lower classes, but still he fought much bigger men and would still be there if he had gotten a bit more luck with the judges

Idbatterim · 09-03-2016 05:35PM

lads what date is mcgregor fighting in vegas next?

Pudsy33 · 09-03-2016 05:40PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads what date is mcgregor fighting in vegas next?

Probably ufc 200 but not confirmed

Richard tea · 09-03-2016 05:48PM

Ok its been a few days. Im still gutted. But things are looking up. After re watching moments of the fight I have Cornor as the better striker. He gassed. Thats it plain and simple. He beat himself. Im sure he will come back and dominate 145 division and most likely dominate 155 division also. I would like to see him at 170 again but not within the next 2 years and this time have a solid fight plan. I think If Nate was honest with himself he would admit that those punches hurt big time. Those slow mo gifs posted earlier are beautiful.

Sync · 09-03-2016 05:51PM

Richard tea wrote: »

Ok its been a few days. Im still gutted. But things are looking up. After re watching moments of the fight I have Cornor as the better striker. He gassed. Thats it plain and simple. He beat himself. Im sure he will come back and dominate 145 division and most likely dominate 155 division also. I would like to see him at 170 again but not within the next 2 years and this time have a solid fight plan. I think If Nate was honest with himself he would admit that those punches hurt big time. Those slow mo gifs posted earlier are beautiful.

Did Nates legs buckle at any stage tho? Genuinely curious, as I know Conors did when Nate caught him, which was the beginning of the end.

Foxtrol · 09-03-2016 05:56PM

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I'm not sure that was it, to be honest. At the risk of veering into the realm of bro-psychology, I got the feeling that Conor was far less relaxed from the get-go than he usually is in the ring. He normally fights so calmly that even when throwing power shots and firing off spinning kicks and jumping switch kicks etc to beat the band, he expends the minimum of energy. He looked like he had a major adrenaline dump in that fight.

I know this sounds ridiculous and I Usually rate Conor's mental strength as one of his best assets, but I feel he was a little rattled in this one and he felt the pressure to make a statement coming into it. I just feel that there is no way a man of his level of fitness gasses that badly in under a round unless anxiety plays a part.

I’ve said it several times, including before the fight, but he was different all this fight week. He’s normally calm and composed, rarely even talking much crap. The press conferences during fight week are usually a drab affair, about faces melting away and the opponent being just a body type, while this time he was screaming, giving constant abuse every time he was in front of a camera, throwing punches, trying to start fights with Diaz’ camp.

I’m not sure if it was the extra calories from not cutting weight, media hype, Diaz trash talk but his over-exuberant fight week is very similar to his over exuberant first round.

Hope fully it’ll be a good learning experience and next time it’ll be back to the same old calmness and destruction of opponents.

Richard tea · 09-03-2016 06:20PM

Sync wrote: »

Did Nates legs buckle at any stage tho? Genuinely curious, as I know Conors did when Nate caught him, which was the beginning of the end.

Im nearly sure nate wobbled once or twice from dig to the noggin. Towards the end of the first? Did Conor get rocked, yes, but only after he had ZERO energy. Would the same punch from Diaz have rocked Conor if it happened in the first 20 seconds of the first round? I wouldn't imagine so but sure its pure speculation.

WarZ · 09-03-2016 06:21PM

I think for the first time since McGregor fought in the UFC he came across an opponent who didn't break from the initial exchanges. I reckon 90% of fighters in FW division would buckle after that uppercut shot for example but Diaz didn't seem phased.

When McGregor realized that his power shots weren't slowing Diaz down he seemed to lose trust in himself and his gameplan and then began to throw hail mary's, gassed himself and shot for the take down.

newbbieb · 09-03-2016 06:54PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I’ve said it several times, including before the fight, but he was different all this fight week. He’s normally calm and composed, rarely even talking much crap. The press conferences during fight week are usually a drab affair, about faces melting away and the opponent being just a body type, while this time he was screaming, giving constant abuse every time he was in front of a camera, throwing punches, trying to start fights with Diaz’ camp.

I’m not sure if it was the extra calories from not cutting weight, media hype, Diaz trash talk but his over-exuberant fight week is very similar to his over exuberant first round.

Hope fully it’ll be a good learning experience and next time it’ll be back to the same old calmness and destruction of opponents.

Totally agree with this,everything about this fight was screaming he was gonna lose.Too many unknowns and straying away from the formula that worked his whole career.

Part of me can't help feel Conor was on some sub-conscious level wanting to lose,he had built such a massive name for himself worldwide on the back of this brash persona it feels to me like part of him wanted to relieve that pressure.

Just the choices he was making the constant accepting of short notice changes,now bigger guys,bigger weights on short notice,anybody with half a brain knows it inevitably will lead to a loss,he just didn't look as hungry to actually win this fight on the same level as he did v Aldo the stupid hand punching stuff,like you say he usually dials in more and more coming to the fight,not so much this time.

UFC 196: McGregor v Diaz

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