Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

wokingvoter · 05-03-2016 07:12PM

anothernight wrote: »

That's not actually true, you know. Ireland has fairly average maternal death rates for a developed European country.

In comparison to highly developed countries UK and US in particular where there is abortion to 24 weeks and abortion on demand respectively we have a far superior maternal death rate
And you know that this is true and I have limited posting rights

Tasden · 05-03-2016 07:15PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

No. Lots of women have babies and give them up for adoption all over the world and they chalk it up to experience and get on with their lives with no ill effects

How on earth could you possibly know that they get on with their lives with no ill effects?

Most of my closest friends don't know how difficult my pregnancy and labour was. Or that I suffered with post natal depression afterwards. Or how I still have back issues from the pregnancy. Its not something I go around broadcasting to everybody I meet.

That's not even the point. There are many many risks involved in pregnancy and childbirth and no woman should have to take these risks unless it is their decision to do so. The risks should not be trivialised as if pregnancy is just some 9 month period out of their life and they can just get on with life as normal afterwards.

AtomicHorror · 05-03-2016 07:15PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

Maternal death rates in UK (abortion to 24 weeks) and US (abortion on demand )are far far higher then they are here

This is just more specific restatement. My previous points (which were so much trouble), already highlight the problems with these stats in isolation.

wokingvoter wrote: »

It's not rocket science to conclude that it's highly unlikely that abortion here will improve our already admirably low maternal death rate

It's not rocket science, it's epidemiology which is much harder. You cannot make that assertion based on your sources.

wokingvoter wrote: »

You've gone to a lot of bother there to try and explain away a few uncomfortable (for pro choice people) facts

It was no trouble at all. I love that you're implying effort is a negative. Really reinforces my position.

RDM_83 again · 05-03-2016 07:16PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

I can't copy links but if you google Irish maternal deaths it's all there
Even taking into account alleged under reporting, were still streets ahead of UK and only a little bit behind other European countries
And China with forced abortions? One of the worst maternal death rates on the planet
Shocking

Ireland is at best slightly better most years than the UK and some years worse.

Listen I actually agree with your argument in that linking limited abortion/termination to less maternal deaths is one that doesn't hold water particularly well for the developed world (on a statistical level-obviously there is the famous case) because the death rates are so low.

Abortion rights don't increase the maternal death rates though, thats also an argument that doesn't hold up, poverty, inequality and bad healthcare in general does, some of the South American countries with even more restrictive regimes than Ireland (these probably do increase death rates) have terrible maternal mortality rates.

anothernight · 05-03-2016 07:17PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

In comparison to highly developed countries UK and US in particular where there is abortion to 24 weeks and abortion on demand respectively we have a far superior maternal death rate
And you know that this is true and I have limited posting rights

I provided data showing it's on par with the maternal death rate in the UK. But hey, you're free to claim whatever you want.

eviltwin · 05-03-2016 07:20PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

No. Lots of women have babies and give them up for adoption all over the world and they chalk it up to experience and get on with their lives with no ill effects

How on earth would you know?

wokingvoter · 05-03-2016 07:24PM

Tasden wrote: »

How on earth could you possibly know that they get on with their lives with no ill effects?

Most of my closest friends don't know how difficult my pregnancy and labour was. Or that I suffered with post natal depression afterwards. Or how I still have back issues from the pregnancy. Its not something I go around broadcasting to everybody I meet.

That's not even the point. There are many many risks involved in pregnancy and childbirth and no woman should have to take these risks unless it is their decision to do so. The risks should not be trivialised as if pregnancy is just some 9 month period out of their life and they can just get on with life as normal afterwards.

I'm sorry you had a difficult experience but pregnancy and delivery and motherhood for the vast majority of the female world is completely natural and without adverse incident
Many millions of women in the third world this year will become pregnant be pregnant give birth and breastfeed a baby without seeing a medical professional
My great grandmother had 21 children because if you let nature take its course and your sexually active then that what your body was designed to do
I hope you will be able to look back on your experience some day with less anxiety

wokingvoter · 05-03-2016 07:26PM

eviltwin wrote: »

How on earth would you know?

Believe it or not there's loads of documented accounts of women's experiences of allowing a child to be adopted
It's not all misery and Philomena you know!

Dirty Dingus McGee · 05-03-2016 07:27PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

You were completely dismissing them.

No I'm not.

I was born 5 weeks premature and because of the people delivering me ****ed up big time I was lucky not to die/have serious brain damage.

My mother had sever post natal depression and spoke of not wanting to keep me if there were any side affects because of my premature birth.So please spare me your bull**** of thinking I'm not aware of the complications surrounding birth and the effects it can have on mothers.

However as I have repeated over and over again I still believe giving the child up for adoption is the better option.The main reason for this is that 2 people I played football with when I was younger were adopted and I think that them living happy healthy lives and their parents having 2 children to love is enough of a reward to take into the account the risk associated with giving birth where the vast majority of women come out of that part of their lives without any serious ill effects.

I don't think my opinion is in any way unreasonable and although their is a risk associated with giving birth to a child in my opinion it is a risk worth taking and is the more decent and humane option to take compared to abortion.

AtomicHorror · 05-03-2016 07:29PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

I'm sorry you had a difficult experience but pregnancy and delivery and motherhood for the vast majority of the female world is completely natural and without adverse incident
Many millions of women in the third world this year will become pregnant be pregnant give birth and breastfeed a baby without seeing a medical professional
My great grandmother had 21 children because if you let nature take its course and your sexually active then that what your body was designed to do
I hope you will be able to look back on your experience some day with less anxiety

That... is incredibly condescending.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 05-03-2016 07:30PM

Tasden wrote: »

If you're well aware of them then why did you make out like pregnancy is just a 9 month sacrifice?

In the main it is.Most women get through the experience perfectly well without any serious long term side affects.

Penny Tration · 05-03-2016 07:31PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

in my opinion it is a risk worth taking and is the more decent and humane option to take compared to abortion.

And if you're able to get pregnant (I've no idea if you're male or female), that is your choice.

For you, it's worth the risk. For many others, it isn't.

AtomicHorror · 05-03-2016 07:32PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

No I'm not.

I was born 5 weeks premature and because of the people delivering me ****ed up big time I was lucky not to die/have serious brain damage.

My mother had sever post natal depression and spoke of not wanting to keep me if there were any side affects because of my premature birth.So please spare me your bull**** of thinking I'm not aware of the complications surrounding birth and the effects it can have on mothers.

However as I have repeated over and over again I still believe giving the child up for adoption is the better option.The main reason for this is that 2 people I played football with when I was younger were adopted and I think that them living happy healthy lives and their parents having 2 children to love is enough of a reward to take into the account the risk associated with giving birth where the vast majority of women come out of that part of their lives without any serious ill effects.

I don't think my opinion is in any way unreasonable and although their is a risk associated with giving birth to a child in my opinion it is a risk worth taking and is the more decent and humane option to take compared to abortion.

The point you're not getting is that this is YOUR assessment of the risks and the opinion you keep expressing is in fact YOUR choice. We are arguing that your assessment is irrelevant unless you are pregnant. Your choice is irrelevant unless YOU are pregnant.

The risk assessment and the choice are the mothers alone. She must have good information and good advice and she must have the power to make the choice.

Tasden · 05-03-2016 07:32PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

I'm sorry you had a difficult experience but pregnancy and delivery and motherhood for the vast majority of the female world is completely natural and without adverse incident
Many millions of women in the third world this year will become pregnant be pregnant give birth and breastfeed a baby without seeing a medical professional
My great grandmother had 21 children because if you let nature take its course and your sexually active then that what your body was designed to do
I hope you will be able to look back on your experience some day with less anxiety

Wow. Way to completely miss my point and insultingly imply that my experience was somehow less "natural".
I have no anxiety, I have a wonderful child as a result of all that I went through, and when I am in a position to provide for another child I would do it all again in a heartbeat.

Thats not the issue. I just think it is absolutely ridiculous for somebody to trivialise those risks and expect a woman to take those very real risks rather than make her own decision to end a pregnancy that she does not want. Why should she have to needlessly endure any complications?

Dirty Dingus McGee · 05-03-2016 07:35PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The point you're not getting is that this is YOUR assessment of the risks and the opinion you keep expressing is in fact YOUR choice. We are arguing that your assessment is irrelevant unless you are pregnant. Your choice is irrelevant unless YOU are pregnant.

The risk assessment and the choice are the mothers alone. She must have good information and good advice and she must have the power to make the choice.

I'm putting forward an opinion.

I put forward an opinion on what I believe is the better option.Which I am sure many others probably agree with seeing as not every unwanted pregnancy ends with an abortion.

wokingvoter · 05-03-2016 07:36PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

That... is incredibly condescending.

What's condescending? I acknowledge and sympathise with the posters difficult experience of motherhood but regarding pregnancy and delivery as some kind of extraordinarily treacherous ordeal to be approached only with extreme caution is completely over the top

anothernight · 05-03-2016 07:39PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

What's condescending? I acknowledge and sympathise with the posters difficult experience of motherhood but regarding pregnancy and delivery as some kind of extraordinarily treacherous ordeal to be approached only with extreme caution is completely over the top

My mother almost died when she was pregnant with me. And then we both almost died. Unplanned pregnancy too.

We can all play the anecdote game.

Tasden · 05-03-2016 07:42PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

What's condescending? I acknowledge and sympathise with the posters difficult experience of motherhood but regarding pregnancy and delivery as some kind of extraordinarily treacherous ordeal to be approached only with extreme caution is completely over the top

Wow just when I thought your posts couldn't get any more patronising :pac:

You are completely missing my point.

I am not being over the top. My pregnancy resulted in those complications and I was keeping the baby at the end. Another pregnancy is just as, if not more, likely to be perfectly fine and complication free.

But why should a woman have to take the chance when she doesn't even want the baby at the end of it all? Most women take the risk (their decision to do so) because at the end of it all they have their beautiful baby that they want.

eviltwin · 05-03-2016 07:52PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

Believe it or not there's loads of documented accounts of women's experiences of allowing a child to be adopted
It's not all misery and Philomena you know!

No one is claiming it is. Adoption is a great option for those who WANT it. If a woman's choice is to keep her baby / have an abortion but those choices are not available then adoption becomes the default. It's not choice, it's coercion. And that's not what any woman should be subjected to.

AtomicHorror · 05-03-2016 08:00PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I'm putting forward an opinion.

I put forward an opinion on what I believe is the better option.Which I am sure many others probably agree with seeing as not every unwanted pregnancy ends with an abortion.

Do you agree that a woman should be allowed to form an opinion and make a choice which may not match your choice?

One eyed Jack · 05-03-2016 08:10PM

I think a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment would pass, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that any new amendment regarding decriminalising abortion would be inserted into the Constitution, and the POLDPA would still stand.

Time limits wouldn't be part of the amendment anyway and would be determined in legislation. I don't think the legislation would allow for an abortion anything like the time limits in UK legislation though.

Basically I think the Government would continue to drag the issue out for as long as they could, as they did with the X case, and the A, B, and C case.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 05-03-2016 08:22PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Do you agree that a woman should be allowed to form an opinion and make a choice which may not match your choice?

Yes.

I never said they couldn't.

I just said in my opinion what I believe the best option is.

05-03-2016 08:54PM

Penny Tration wrote: »

So if I have an abortion, how does that affect you?
.

If I walk down the street in a city far away from you and shoot a person you never know existed in the head. How does it affect you?

The answer is it doesn't really yet you would be absolutely disgusted to hear it happened and would not live in a society that allowed it to happen and the person go unpunished.

lazygal · 05-03-2016 09:00PM

Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »

If I walk down the street in a city far away from you and shoot a person you never know existed in the head. How does it affect you?

The answer is it doesn't really yet you would be absolutely disgusted to hear it happened and would not live in a society that allowed it to happen and the person go unpunished.

How should women and children who have abortions be punished?

wokingvoter · 05-03-2016 09:35PM

anothernight wrote: »

My mother almost died when she was pregnant with me. And then we both almost died. Unplanned pregnancy too.

We can all play the anecdote game.

I had a traumatic delivery of my daughter, ventouse suction , forceps, blue cold silent baby 50 stitches, the talk of Holles street for the whole weekend
That's the way it goes
You win some you lose some
I just have some perspective is all and know that many other babies were born that day with little or no incident

The Golden Miller · 05-03-2016 09:42PM

So the argument has boiled down to pro-abortionists claiming abortion should be legal due to the very very very very very very very very limited chance the mother might die? Yet they cry about this with no regard for the CERTAIN death of the unborn baby? Laughable stuff really. Such self-interest and selfishness

One eyed Jack · 05-03-2016 09:46PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So the argument has boiled down to pro-abortionists claiming abortion should be legal due to the very very very very very very very very limited chance the mother might die? Yet they cry about this with no regard for the CERTAIN death of the unborn baby? Laughable stuff really. Such self-interest and selfishness

Abortion is already legal in those circumstances though?

AtomicHorror · 05-03-2016 09:47PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So the argument has boiled down to pro-abortionists claiming abortion should be legal due to the very very very very very very very very limited chance the mother might die?

No. Nobody has said anything like that.

Who are the pro-abortionists? I've never heard of a movement that insists on abortions.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Yet they cry about this with no regard for the CERTAIN death of the unborn baby?

I think most women who get an abortion would cry quite a lot about it, actually. In fact I know that to be fact, sadly. The question is whether that pain is greater or lesser than the alternative choice.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Laughable stuff really. Such self-interested and selfishness

And this is mindless dismissiveness. A mean-spirited belittling of the motivations and consequences of abortions. You have nothing but a bunch of assumptions and a bad attitude- not useful to this discussion in the slightest.

The Golden Miller · 05-03-2016 09:53PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

No. Nobody has said anything like that.

Who are the pro-abortionists? I've never heard of a movement that insists on abortions.

I think most women who get an abortion would cry quite a lot about it, actually. In fact I know that to be fact, sadly. The question is whether that pain is greater or lesser than the alternative choice.

And this is mindless dismissiveness. A mean-spirited belittling of the motivations and consequences of abortions. You have nothing but a bunch of assumptions and a bad attitude- not useful to this discussion in the slightest.

Sorry, but you're saying I'm mean spirited? I'm not the one advocating ending the existence of the defenseless because it's an inconvenience to me. Maybe people should start calling abortion what it actual is instead of pussyfooting around the issue, it's murder plain and simple. And why do they cry? Because they done something which is morally wrong. It's called your conscience kicking in.

The Golden Miller · 05-03-2016 09:54PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Abortion is already legal in those circumstances though?

I'm aware of that. The debate running is effectively about how abortion should be legal due to the horrendous ordeal all these women have to/may have to go through

Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

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