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Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

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  • #422
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    B0jangles wrote: »
    The "legal abortion" described is not analogous to abortion, it is codified child abandonment.

    If the carrier of the pregnancy has an abortion, there is no baby to be supported by either parent - no ongoing responsibility to provide care or money for either parent.
    If the non-carrier of the pregnancy has a "legal abortion", then there is still a baby to be supported - responsibility for providing 100% of care and financial support carried by one parent.

    The two scenarios are not remotely comparable.

    So basically your saying the rights of the child supersede the rights of the male parent.
    Flip those genders and apply that argument too woman and examine your position.


  • #423
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    B0jangles wrote: »
    The "legal abortion" described is not analogous to abortion, it is codified child abandonment.

    If the carrier of the pregnancy has an abortion, there is no baby to be supported by either parent - no ongoing responsibility to provide care or money for either parent.
    If the non-carrier of the pregnancy has a "legal abortion", then there is still a baby to be supported - responsibility for providing 100% of care and financial support carried by one parent.

    The two scenarios are not remotely comparable.

    But in this instance that is not the fathers concern as he's expressed he doesn't want the child, doesn't want to care for it or pay for it, why should he be forced to.

    The mother can choose to save herself money by having an abortion but the father hasn't a similar option.It's extremely hypocritical.


  • #424
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Smidge wrote: »
    And here lies the real crux of the issue.

    Women are still, in this day and age, seen as mere "incubators".
    No lives of our own, no other obligations, no mortgages, no bills.
    Just to be an incubator for seed.
    WEmade the baby, so therefore must bear the consequences.
    And considering that we are just "vessels" for the unborn should just shut up about it and suck it up.
    It ABSOLUTELY is the woman's body, woman's choice for a reason.
    The baby is guaranteed, the father is NOT. That's the reality, like it or not.

    I have had so many friends left "holding baby" (all working before the dole brigade arrives)and now their lives with no support from fathers who have flown the coop, are just incredibly difficult. Very easy to talk the talk from the sidelines tbh, not so easy in the day to day mire.

    But that aside, I can practically guarantee that there isnt a woman out there who has had an abortion on a "whim".
    Believe me, its no picnic.
    I accompanied a friend to have one once.
    It was desperately sad.
    Married couples.
    Older women alone(may have had medical issues/age was a factor)
    And women alone
    All looking very sad.
    All Irish in a UK clinic.(six, including my friend)
    All went through with it that day, for what ever the reason.
    I spoke with the nurse while my friend was under.
    She said the reason a lot of the Irish patients were upset was that they were having a procedure done in another country and that was common. Make of that what you will.

    How sad for you that you see yourself as a mere vessel or incubator
    You must have little or no experience of a loving joyful relationship where each partner cherishes and respects the other in equal amounts and when one is carrying a new life the other is respecting and cherishing 2 people with great joy and happiness to look forward too
    I'm 51 and have met many expectant mothers lots of whom were very unhappy but none of whom ever ever described themselves as being made to feel like a vessel or an incubator
    Can you give us examples of when you witnessed or experienced this kind of behaviour?


  • #425
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    gingergirl wrote: »
    As it looks like we will have a FF/FG conservative government for the next 5 years, I'd say any possibility of repeal of the 8th is off the agenda, as well taking the control of schools away from the church and the progressive drug policies that Aodan O'Riordan was trying to implement

    The people didn't want Aodan O'Riordans proposals or they would have voted Labour back in


  • #426
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    B0jangles wrote: »
    If the carrier of the pregnancy has an abortion, there is no baby to be supported by either parent - no ongoing responsibility to provide care or money for either parent.

    If the non-carrier of the pregnancy has a "legal abortion", then there is still a baby to be supported - responsibility for providing 100% of care and financial support carried by one parent.

    That doesn't make sense. What if the man wants the child but the woman doesn't? Does her decision trump his? And if so, why should he then be held accountable for her decision if he doesn't want a child but she does?


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  • #427
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    That doesn't make sense. What if the man wants the child but the woman doesn't? Does her decision trump his? And if so, why should he then be held accountable for her decision if he doesn't want a child but she does?

    There is not and cannot be equality in this matter.

    Do you think a woman would ever be able to make the legal decision on whether a man gets the snip?

    Forced pregnancy and forced abortion are both absolutely abhorrent.


  • #428
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    There is not and cannot be equality in this matter.

    Do you think a woman would ever be able to make the legal decision on whether a man gets the snip?

    No more than a man should be able to force a woman to have her tubes tied, but that's not really the issue at hand here.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Forced pregnancy and forced abortion are both absolutely abhorrent.

    So then why is it justifiable to try and force a father into parenthood? If the mother doesn't want the child, the father has no say. If the mother does want the child, the father has no say?


  • #429
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    Penny Tration wrote: »
    A man will never be forced to have a baby - biology!

    All they can force a man to do is pay for the upkeep of said said child. Nothing more.

    All? That's quite a big deal!


  • #430
    gingergirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 110 ✭✭gingergirl


    wokingvoter wrote:
    The people didn't want Aodan O'Riordans proposals or they would have voted Labour back in

    Politics aside, I think his ideas in relation to drugs were progressive


  • #431
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    But in this instance that is not the fathers concern as he's expressed he doesn't want the child, doesn't want to care for it or pay for it, why should he be forced to.

    The mother can choose to save herself money by having an abortion but the father hasn't a similar option.It's extremely hypocritical.

    As opposed to how it stands now where if a woman becomes pregnant, unless she has the resources to travel for an abortion, she has no option but to carry the baby. The father can up and leave and take no responsibility whatsoever if he wishes but the mother is left pregnant and possibly solely responsible for the rest of the child's life. The woman hasn't the option to save herself money and hardship. The man does, and many men do.


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  • #432
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    No more than a man should be able to force a woman to have her tubes tied, but that's not really the issue at hand here.


    Sure a woman can't even beg to have her tubes tied here...


  • #433
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    How sad for you that you see yourself as a mere vessel or incubator
    You must have little or no experience of a loving joyful relationship where each partner cherishes and respects the other in equal amounts and when one is carrying a new life the other is respecting and cherishing 2 people with great joy and happiness to look forward too
    I'm 51 and have met many expectant mothers lots of whom were very unhappy but none of whom ever ever described themselves as being made to feel like a vessel or an incubator
    Can you give us examples of when you witnessed or experienced this kind of behaviour?

    I felt like an incubator while pregnant. Most of the attention and care is on the foetus, the maternity system was patchy and the eighth amendment and its impact on maternity services here is putting me off getting pregnant again.


  • #434
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    So then why is it justifiable to try and force a father into parenthood? If the mother doesn't want the child, the father has no say. If the mother does want the child, the father has no say?

    Because at the point where the mother makes the decision, there is (in my eyes) no child.

    When the father makes the decision, there is.

    That's the difference.


  • #435
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Because at the point where the mother makes the decision, there is (in my eyes) no child.

    When the father makes the decision, there is.

    That's the difference.

    I honestly can't agree with you on this, trying to hold a man accountable for something he will never get input on doesn't make sense to me.

    And I'm someone who wishes his mother had left his father sooner. Some people just aren't fit to be parents, and forcing them to be responsible for the decisions of another person just doesn't work.


  • #436
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    I honestly can't agree with you on this, trying to hold a man accountable for something he will never get input on doesn't make sense to me.

    And I'm someone who wishes his mother had left his father sooner. Some people just aren't fit to be parents, and forcing them to be responsible for the decisions of another person just doesn't work.

    He gave his 'input' - that's how the baby got made.

    Okay, let's look at it another way. Assuming abortion is still illegal, is it okay for a woman to abandon her child? Because people seem really comfortable with a man doing it. But a woman would get judged really harshly. Why is that?


  • #437
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    He gave his 'input' - that's how the baby got made.

    It takes two to have a kid, but only one of them gets to decide about whether to keep it or not?
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Okay, let's look at it another way. Assuming abortion is still illegal, is it okay for a woman to abandon her child? Because people seem really comfortable with a man doing it. But a woman would get judged really harshly. Why is that?

    I honestly don't think you've met many men who run off on their children. But, yes, if the mother doesn't want the child and the father does, then the mother should be able to leave and the father should be able to carry that burden - I'm not advocating simply for "let guys do what they want", I just genuinely believe that a person should not be held accountable for the decision of another.

    I would never leave my child if I had one, I would never agree with someone leaving a child - but that does not change my opinion on their freedom to choose. People make decisions I don't like or agree with, but that's life.


  • #438
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    He gave his 'input' - that's how the baby got made.

    Okay, let's look at it another way. Assuming abortion is still illegal, is it okay for a woman to abandon her child? Because people seem really comfortable with a man doing it. But a woman would get judged really harshly. Why is that?

    I'd have no problem with any woman giving a child up for adoption if they didn't want to look after it.

    It's much more preferable solution to an unwanted pregnancy than abortion in my opinion.


  • #439
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Tasden wrote: »
    As opposed to how it stands now where if a woman becomes pregnant, unless she has the resources to travel for an abortion, she has no option but to carry the baby. The father can up and leave and take no responsibility whatsoever if he wishes but the mother is left pregnant and possibly solely responsible for the rest of the child's life. The woman hasn't the option to save herself money and hardship. The man does, and many men do.



    Again I point out my argument is all based on the hypothetical situation that abortion becomes available in Ireland.


  • #440
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    It takes two to have a kid, but only one of them gets to decide about whether to keep it or not?



    I honestly don't think you've met many men who run off on their children. But, yes, if the mother doesn't want the child and the father does, then the mother should be able to leave and the father should be able to carry that burden - I'm not advocating simply for "let guys do what they want", I just genuinely believe that a person should not be held accountable for the decision of another.

    I would never leave my child if I had one, I would never agree with someone leaving a child - but that does not change my opinion on their freedom to choose. People make decisions I don't like or agree with, but that's life.

    Both of them made the decision to have sex (in most cases), and both knew the potential consequences.

    To me, they are completely different scenarios.

    Scenario 1: Deciding whether to keep a baby - This should be done with both parents agreeing if at all possible - that's obviously the ideal. However, if they can't agree, it makes sense that the person who is taking on the greater responsibility (and I would argue strongly that as it stands in society right now this is very much the women) gets the casting vote. The woman is the one who is going to either have the abortion or go through childbirth, and in most cases will take on the bulk of childcare duties for 18+ years after.

    Scenario 2: Baby is born. The baby has two parents. One of the parents deciding they don't want to fulfil their responsibilities because abortion was an option does not negate their legal, moral, and ethical obligations to that child.

    It's not equal because biologically we are not equal.


  • #441
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    I'd have no problem with any woman giving a child up for adoption if they didn't want to look after it.

    It's much more preferable solution to an unwanted pregnancy than abortion in my opinion.

    But the men being discussed in this scenario aren't arranging for the child to be adopted into a loving home that is financially prepared to take in a child. They are leaving as they please in the knowledge that the biological mother of the child will be expected to just pick up the pieces. Whether that is keeping the baby or going through the adoption process- alone, is usually none of their concern as they are long gone.
    If women did that and left the man holding the baby they would be judged so harshly.


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  • #442
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    gingergirl wrote: »
    Politics aside, I think his ideas in relation to drugs were progressive

    Probably, but there's little or no appetite for progression outside the large urban centres
    The SSM result wasn't exactly the landslide the media would have you think it was although the no voters are probably realising now that the apocalypse they were dreading is as far away as it ever was


  • #443
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    lazygal wrote: »
    I felt like an incubator while pregnant. Most of the attention and care is on the foetus, the maternity system was patchy and the eighth amendment and its impact on maternity services here is putting me off getting pregnant again.

    My daughters friend is pregnant. She's 18. She was outraged at the casual attitude her own GP adopted towards the fact that she's pregnant and these feelings were compounded by the same attitude at the ante natal clinic
    Especially if it's your first pregnancy and you are young then the fact that you are going to give birth is almost always the most sensational thing that has ever, or will ever, happen to you.
    Because it is.
    The medical profession are there mainly to treat sick people
    When you are pregnant you are not sick ( mostly. Unless you are sick as in you have diabetes or something or you have a pregnancy related condition such as pre eclampsia) and the midwives and boy/gynaes who work very hard, while being respectful and civil, may come across as brusque and uncaring because of health cuts they don't really nhave enough time to answer all a woman's questions and offer endless emotional reassurance.
    If the mother is physically and mentally well then the baby in utero has to be the priority


  • #444
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,643 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    and the midwives and boy/gynaes who work very hard, while being respectful and civil, may come across as brusque and uncaring because of health cuts they don't really nhave enough time to answer all a woman's questions and offer endless emotional reassurance.
    If the mother is physically and mentally well then the baby in utero has to be the priority

    Except if the mother is stressed because she's being fobbed off and her worries ignored then that's likely to have a negative effect on the baby.

    Having given birth in a country where abortion is available, my experience is that in places where the evil 8th amendment doesn't exist, the mother is the priority, and that gives better outcomes for both : since she presumably wants the baby (or she'd have had a termination) there is no potential conflict between the two anyway. She wants the best for her baby and in case of problems which arise she can be trusted to make the best decision possible in that light.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #445
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Except if the mother is stressed because she's being fobbed off and her worries ignored then that's likely to have a negative effect on the baby.

    Having given birth in a country where abortion is available, my experience is that in places where the evil 8th amendment doesn't exist, the mother is the priority, and that gives better outcomes for both : since she presumably wants the baby (or she'd have had a termination) there is no potential conflict between the two anyway. She wants the best for her baby and in case of problems which arise she can be trusted to make the best decision possible in that light.

    But how can you explain then the incidents of maternal death in Ireland being amongst the lowest in the entire world?


  • #446
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    I'd have no problem with any woman giving a child up for adoption if they didn't want to look after it.

    It's much more preferable solution to an unwanted pregnancy than abortion in my opinion.

    Except for the whole pushing a baby out of your body part, which I'm told is extremely painful and risky. We can ignore that, for the sake of your opinion.

    After all, the baby is what? 50% the man's property?


  • #447
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Except for the whole pushing a baby out of your body part, which I'm told is extremely painful and risky. We can ignore that, for the sake of your opinion.

    After all, the baby is what? 50% the man's property?

    It's still preferable to an abortion as the child has a chance of life.


  • #448
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    It's still preferable to an abortion as the child has a chance of life.

    That is for the mother to judge. She has a life, far more of a life than any foetus- with far more at stake for a great many more people, and that life is put at risk by continuing pregnancy and childbirth. She is by far the biggest stakeholder in the equation. She can hear from the father, doctors, family, friends, but ultimately it's her body and her life on the line.

    The father is, at best, the second biggest stakeholder in the equation.


  • #449
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    But how can you explain then the incidents of maternal death in Ireland being amongst the lowest in the entire world?

    Maybe they're lower where Volchitsa went? What's to explain?


  • #450
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    That is for the mother to judge. She has a life, far more of a life than any foetus- with far more at stake for a great many more people, and that life is put at risk by continuing pregnancy and childbirth. She is by far the biggest stakeholder in the equation. She can hear from the father, doctors, family, friends, but ultimately it's her body and her life on the line.

    The father is, at best, the second biggest stakeholder in the equation.

    If pregnancy was as risky as you make it sound nobody would ever consider having children.It isn't as risky as you make it sound.10.5 deaths per 100,000 pregnancies is the rate in Ireland.Sure it's a risk but so is walking across the road,getting into a car and any number of everyday things.

    In my opinion adoption is a far better alternative than abortion as at least there is a chance of life.


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  • #451
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    If pregnancy was as risky as you make it sound nobody would ever consider having children.It isn't as risky as you make it sound.10.5 deaths per 100,000 pregnancies is the rate in Ireland.Sure it's a risk but so is walking across the road,getting into a car and any number of everyday things.

    In my opinion adoption is a far better alternative than abortion as at least there is a chance of life.

    It's not callous. We're talking about a 9 month pregnancy, childbirth and then a lifetime of financial and emotional support. It's not something to enter into lightly.


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