Strong garda presence at Galway Airport amid illegal Traveller encampment

Nekarsulm · 13-02-2016 03:36PM

There are peaceful ways to move travellers from illegally occupyied sites.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/mobile-traders-leave-stinking-carpark-25911096.html

13-02-2016 03:38PM

Negative_G wrote: »

Explain to me what you're trying to say then?

Do you have any intention on addressing any of the issues that have been mentioned in this thread?

How about you start at my first post on this thread, read them forward from there, and get back to me if there is any point you want clarified?

Negative_G · 13-02-2016 03:47PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How about you start at my first post on this thread, read them forward from there, and get back to me if there is any point you want clarified?

No thanks, I couldn't be bothered reading your drivel. You should get in touch win Pavee Point, you would be a fantastic spokesperson.

The 'thanks' count in the earlier posts is a pretty good indicator of the general consensus regarding travellers and their behaviours. That in itself speaks volumes.

13-02-2016 03:52PM

Negative_G wrote: »

No thanks, I couldn't be bothered reading your drivel. You should get in touch win Pavee Point, you would be a fantastic spokesperson.

The 'thanks' count in the earlier posts is a pretty good indicator of the general consensus regarding travellers and their behaviours. That in itself speaks volumes.

"Your argument is something about bending over. Write out your points in a way I can understand. No don't, I won't read it, it's drivel. Something about thanks"

Thanks for the laugh!

end of the road · 13-02-2016 04:05PM

J.pilkington wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? Are you really saying much of the settled community act in the way the other poster stated?

You are crazy dude, open your eyes

are you having a laugh? of course a number in the settled community take part in the same nonsense. any of the issues brought up against travelers such as not working, being anti-social, not paying tax, all exist in the settled community. you are clearly deluded if you think otherwise. wake up, you are crazy "dude" open your eyes.

Azalea · 13-02-2016 04:08PM

Claiming the proportion of anti social behaviour and sanitation problems and very early school leaving and animal cruelty and illegal activities is the same among travellers and non travellers... is what's deluded.

end of the road · 13-02-2016 04:13PM

Azalea wrote: »

Claiming the proportion of anti social behaviour and sanitation problems and very early school leaving and animal cruelty and illegal activities is the same among travellers and non travellers... is what's deluded.

and nobody has claimed it. so if anyone is deluded, its probably those who imagine such was claimed

13-02-2016 04:18PM

Azalea wrote: »

Claiming the proportion of anti social behaviour and sanitation problems and very early school leaving and animal cruelty and illegal activities is the same among travellers and non travellers... is what's deluded.

I'm not sure many claim it.

I haven't seen anyone here say "things are the same across both populations".

I say things are different. Crime rates are higher. As they are amongst black people and native Americans in the States. As they are amongst indigenous Australians in Oz. But in those communities people are much more willing to accept society's role in creating that difference, and what society owes to address issues. Here people are more likely to say "but they get too much, they don't deserve it, they do nothing for themselves, it's not our fault at all"

Azalea · 13-02-2016 04:26PM

I honestly can't see how significant a role society today has in creating the differences. Travellers *choose* to be disenfranchised. They want to keep their communities to themselves. Travellers are offered state supports and advocacy groups and educational incentives (all of which I agree with) - nobody makes them take kids out of the education system early. Nobody makes them live on encampments with appalling sanitation putting health and lives at risk - travellers can be housed by the local authority or can rent privately if they wish. Nobody makes them choose not to avail of contraception.

It is 2016 - so many travellers live in squalor like it's 1916. The only force that is causing them to live in this way is aspects of traveller culture itself.

13-02-2016 04:35PM

Azalea wrote: »

I honestly can't see how significant a role society today has in creating the differences. Travellers *choose* to be disenfranchised. They want to keep their communities to themselves. Travellers are offered state supports and advocacy groups and educational incentives (all of which I agree with) - nobody makes them take kids out of the education system early. Nobody makes them live on encampments with appalling sanitation putting health and lives at risk - travellers can be housed by the local authority or can rent privately if they wish. Nobody makes them choose not to avail of contraception.

It is 2016 - so many travellers live in squalor like it's 1916. The only force that is causing them to live in this way is aspects of traveller culture itself.

You could say that about any single category that faces discrimination or prejudice.

Black people committing crime in South Central LA choose to be disenfranchised...it's their own culture...
Native Americans sniffing glue on some wasteland in a reservation choose to be disenfranchised...it's their own culture...
Indigenous Australians drinking through the night in their shacks choose to be disenfranchised...it's their own culture...

It works for every single group that has faced marginalisation and discrimination over centuries. Every one.

Little CuChulainn · 13-02-2016 04:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You could say that about any single category that faces discrimination or prejudice.

Black people committing crime in South Central LA choose to be disenfranchised...it's their own culture...
Native Americans sniffing glue on some wasteland in a reservation choose to be disenfranchised...it's their own culture...
Indigenous Australians drinking through the night in their shacks choose to be disenfranchised...it's their own culture...

It works for every single group that has faced marginalisation and discrimination over centuries. Every one.

You're ignoring a very important aspect. Black people in the US were enslaved and won their freedom. Native American and Native Australians were conquered. Travellers don't have that kind of history in Ireland. They have always had the same rights and opportunities available to them as any other citizen. The only thing in their way is themselves.

13-02-2016 04:53PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

They have always had the same rights and opportunities available to them as any other citizen. The only thing in their way is themselves.

So when the ESRI concluded that they actually face widespread ostracism and marginalisation, you say this is wrong and they have the exact same opportunities?

Little CuChulainn · 13-02-2016 04:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So when the ESRI concluded that they actually face widespread ostracism and marginalisation, you say this is wrong and they have the exact same opportunities?

I'm saying it's self imposed.

13-02-2016 05:00PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'm saying it's self imposed.

Again, something that can be said of every single group that faces ostracism and marginalisation, it's their fault.

Azalea · 13-02-2016 05:01PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You're ignoring a very important aspect. Black people in the US were enslaved and won their freedom. Native American and Native Australians were conquered. Travellers don't have that kind of history in Ireland. They have always had the same rights and opportunities available to them as any other citizen. The only thing in their way is themselves.

I wouldn't agree travellers have always had the same rights and opportunities here, but they certainly have now, as well as having protected ethnic minority status.

Black people in the US want to be integrated. Native Americans are a peaceful people.

13-02-2016 05:04PM

Azalea wrote: »

Native Americans are a peaceful people.

You're driving a coach and fours over all the stats that show they have a far higher crime rate.

We can't just say stuff like "ah but they're just nicer people"!

Azalea · 13-02-2016 05:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You're driving a coach and fours over all the stats that show they have a far higher crime rate.

We can't just say stuff like "ah but they're just nicer people"!

Fair enough. I didn't know that at all. Never in my life heard of high crime among native Americans.
What historical brutalities have travellers in Ireland faced like native Americans have? Nobody barged in and took travellers' land, nobody forced them to Ireland and enslaved them.

They choose to be marginalised, it is integral to their culture. They are offered plenty of supports by the state and lots take the olive branch and break the cycle, which is brilliant - people who don't even want that are the bigots towards travellers. But it's not bigoted to face reality of life choices - choices that are not forced on them by the rest of society.

13-02-2016 05:24PM

Azalea wrote: »

Fair enough. I didn't know that at all. Never in my life heard of high crime among native Americans.
What historical brutalities have travellers in Ireland faced like native Americans have? Nobody barged in and took travellers' land, nobody forced them to Ireland and enslaved them.

No one argued that their histories are the same. I am comparing peoples that have higher crime rates. And lots of other similarities in their problems, higher suicide rates, higher infant mortality, lower life expectancy...and very often the disparity is staggering.

You just completely made up a point about "ah but sure they're a peaceful people". They are anything but, with crime rates on reservations a multiple of that elsewhere.

The EU Parliament concluded that travellers are amongst the most discriminated against groups here. I don't think they really took the "ah but in that case it's all their fault" defence!

mynamejeff · 13-02-2016 05:24PM

Azalea wrote: »

Fair enough. I didn't know that at all. Never in my life heard of high crime among native Americans.
What historical brutalities have travellers in Ireland faced like native Americans have? Nobody barged in and took travellers' land, nobody forced them to Ireland and enslaved them.

They choose to be marginalised, it is integral to their culture. They are offered plenty of supports by the state and lots take the olive branch and break the cycle, which is brilliant - people who don't even want that are the bigots towards travellers. But it's not bigoted to face reality of life choices - choices that are not forced on them by the rest of society.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/21/us/on-indian-reservations-higher-crime-and-fewer-prosecutions.html?_r=0

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/02/on-indian-land-criminals-can-get-away-with-almost-anything/273391/

https://forcechange.com/20588/bring-criminals-on-native-american-reservations-to-justice/

Crime rate nearly double for native americans according to one source

Its called google .

for the record i agree with your sentiments regarding travellers though

Little CuChulainn · 13-02-2016 05:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, something that can be said of every single group that faces ostracism and marginalisation, it's their fault.

On that we disagree. Travellers have more services available to them than any settled person in Ireland. This can not be said of the other groups.

Azalea · 13-02-2016 05:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No one argued that their histories are the same. I am comparing peoples that have higher crime rates. And lots of other similarities in their problems, higher suicide rates, higher infant mortality, lower life expectancy...and very often the disparity is staggering.

You just completely made up a point about "ah but sure they're a peaceful people". They are anything but, with crime rates on reservations a multiple of that elsewhere.

The EU Parliament concluded that travellers are amongst the most discriminated against groups here. I don't think they really took the "ah but in that case it's all their fault" defence!

But you're the one who used groups with historical grievances as parallels with travellers - travellers don't have those historical grievances, travellers choose to be on the outside, travellers have the same state opportunities as all of us but often choose not to avail of them. Yes it very much is a matter of personal responsibility.

13-02-2016 05:33PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

On that we disagree. Travellers have more services available to them than any settled person in Ireland. This can not be said of the other groups.

You think we have a policy of positive discrimination? That's a big jump from saying there is discrimination but it's their fault. Are there quotas for travellers in say politics, as there are to redress gender inequality? Are there policies to employ travellers in pubic sector jobs, say as exist under Disability Acts?

Little CuChulainn · 13-02-2016 05:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You think we have a policy of positive discrimination? That's a big jump from saying there is discrimination but it's their fault. Are there quotas for travellers in say politics, as there are to redress gender inequality? Are there policies to employ travellers in pubic sector jobs, say as exist under Disability Acts?

I think travellers have more services and facilities available to them than any other people in this country. And I think any segregation or poverty they suffer is entirely self imposed. I can't really simplify it any more.

Potential-Monke · 13-02-2016 06:00PM

Travellers have more rights than "settled" people. That's a fact. They have all the rights you and I have, plus additional rights given to them by virtue of the fact that they class themselves as travellers. And none of the ones i've ever encountered could be classed as travellers. Travellers are historically a nomadic race, that is they travel and don't settle in one place. According to Pavee Points own website, 73.3% live in houses. Now, how can someone be classed as a traveller if they don't travel? How can they be a traveller if they are not nomadic?

Ok, so they settled in one area. Historically, travellers provided services to the people they would come across, that is where they got the names tinker (for "tinkering" with, or fixing pots and pans), and knacker (someone who collects dead horses). Somehow, these names are now derogatory, and you would be called racist for using them.

There was a point to this, but i got lost in that horrible website. Even their main page background picture, of a halting site, clearly shows the disregard they ahve to keep where they live clean. And then they give out about conditions, when it's all their own doing!!!!

13-02-2016 06:03PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I think travellers have more services and facilities available to them than any other people in this country. And I think any segregation or poverty they suffer is entirely self imposed. I can't really simplify it any more.

I'm not suggesting it's complex, merely that it's contradictory.

To say "they suffer discrimination but it's self imposed" is very different to saying "they don't suffer discrimination at all, they have more available to them than other groups".

So now you don't accept the ESRI or European Parliaments findings, as opposed to merely disagreeing with the cause of discrimination in a previous post?

13-02-2016 06:08PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Ok, so they settled in one area. Historically, travellers provided services to the people they would come across, that is where they got the names tinker (for "tinkering" with, or fixing pots and pans), and knacker (someone who collects dead horses). Somehow, these names are now derogatory, and you would be called racist for using them.

😄

It's rare you see someone standing up for the promotion of words now deemed pejorative!

mynamejeff · 13-02-2016 06:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

😄

It's rare you see someone standing up for the promotion of words now deemed pejorative!

Aw come on now conor thats not even close to what was said .

you dont have to try so hard to get offended

13-02-2016 06:13PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

Aw come on now conor thats not even close to what was said .

you dont have to try so hard to get offended

Um.

I think Potential-Monke was offended by the re categorisation of words that used to be grand.

I was amused by that!

goose2005 · 13-02-2016 06:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to laugh at the complete lack of self awareness in much of the hatred.

I'm not prejudiced...but travellers really are criminals.

Just change traveller to a skin colour and you have the calling card of every racist on the planet. The "I'm not bigoted, the people I hate are genuine scumbags" routine.

The way I see it, just don't generalise. Not on the basis of gender, age, sexual orientation, religion, skin colour, membership of the travelling community etc. etc...pretty much the classes set out in our equality legislation.

Exactly. It's the 95% of travellers that give the decent 5% a bad name.

Little CuChulainn · 13-02-2016 06:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not suggesting it's complex, merely that it's contradictory.

To say "they suffer discrimination but it's self imposed" is very different to saying "they don't suffer discrimination at all, they have more available to them than other groups".

So now you don't accept the ESRI or European Parliaments findings, as opposed to merely disagreeing with the cause of discrimination in a previous post?

I think you are confusing me with another poster. I never said they suffer discrimination. I'm not sure where you got those quotes. I said they are segregated by their own choice and that any issues they have are generally their own doing because it is not as a result of any lack of service or facilities offered to them.

Strong garda presence at Galway Airport amid illegal Traveller encampment

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