The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-01-2016 02:47AM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Laughable ban, how much more evidence is needed to ban someone for life? The guy plays to injure and has succeeded multiple time.

These people will be making a first ballot hall-of-famer out of a murderer. In that context this is pretty draconian.

Guffy · 12-01-2016 02:50AM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

These people will be making a first ballot hall-of-famer out of a murderer. In that context this is pretty draconian.

Ah now, i don't see Hernandez going to the HOF

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-01-2016 02:54AM

gufc21 wrote: »

Ah now, i don't see Hernandez going to the HOF

There's still time.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 05:32AM

Clementine Scary String wrote: »

im not disagreeing but how can you dismiss hgh which is known to be used because i dont have a stat but then decide that jerry rices whole career is bollocks because he used stickum when there are no stats to back that up either?

I don't think anyone is dismissing HGH.
But your comparison is a bit off. If someone came out and said that they used HGH during their career, then it'd be closer to what Rice admitted.

You can suspect players using HGH, just as you can suspect players used stickum. When someone actually comes out and admits they used either, then they are a stat.

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 05:38AM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I don't think anyone is dismissing HGH.
But your comparison is a bit off. If someone came out and said that they used HGH during their career, then it'd be closer to what Rice admitted.

You can suspect players using HGH, just as you can suspect players used stickum. When someone actually comes out and admits they used either, then they are a stat.

Agreed; a better comparison might be if someone were caught recording what plays the opposition were going to run during their practice sessions.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 06:16AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Agreed; a better comparison might be if someone were caught recording what plays the opposition were going to run during their practice sessions.

It was walkthoughts, not practice.
But it's a worse comparison as it's not the actions of individual players.

D9Male · 12-01-2016 06:32AM

I think more of someone when they admit to cheating, personally.

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-01-2016 12:32PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It was walkthoughts, not practice.
But it's a worse comparison as it's not the actions of individual players.

But do you think it affects the reputation of that team as the best of their generation? Does it undermine their legacy, as people say this does for rice? If not, why not?

adrian522 · 12-01-2016 12:33PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

But do you think it affects the reputation of that team as the best of their generation? Does it undermine their legacy, as people say this does for rice? If not, why not?

Because of the team involved obviously.

12-01-2016 12:40PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It was walkthoughts, not practice.
But it's a worse comparison as it's not the actions of individual players.

The wrongly acquired info was given to Brady.

It was worse than the actions of an individual.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 02:07PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

But do you think it affects the reputation of that team as the best of their generation?

No. Cause every team was doing it, the Pats were doing it from an illegal position. They thought wrongly they had a loophole, they didn't and were punished.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Does it undermine their legacy, as people say this does for rice?

No I don't and I don't think many people do for Rice.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 02:08PM

adrian522 wrote: »

Because of the team involved obviously.

Not sure what you mean?

12-01-2016 02:14PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

No. Cause every team was doing it, the Pats were doing it from an illegal position. They thought wrongly they had a loophole...

They were caught cheating.

We don't gotta do the defences about wrong thoughts about loopholes!

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 02:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The wrongly acquired info was given to Brady.

It was worse than the actions of an individual.

I was talking about comparisons, you may have gone off on a tangent.
In terms of HGH, we don't know who is current;y on it, but we know that Rice admitted to cheating with stickum; so if he came out and admitted to HGH use, then it'd be a similar comparison.

How beneficial were the tapes? I don't know. Their winning percentage didn't drop much afterwards, so perhaps minimal. How beneficial was Rice usage of stickum? I also don't know.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 02:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

They were caught cheating.

We don't gotta do the defences about wrong thoughts about loopholes!

OK, you want to go all drama about it, I'm out of discussing this with you.

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-01-2016 02:26PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

No. Cause every team was doing it, the Pats were doing it from an illegal position. They thought wrongly they had a loophole, they didn't and were punished.

No I don't and I don't think many people do for Rice.

Fair enough if you don't think it tarnishes Rice's reputation either. For what it's worth, I agree with you, for both the Pats and Rice, the stories do not undermine their legacy as the greatest team/player of their generation. It's not aimed at you then, I suppose, but rather those who are claiming that Rice is out of the conversation for best of all time because of the stickum thing, but who would NOT exclude the Patriots from such discussion. The argument that everyone was doing what the Patriots were doing applies equally to Jerry Rice. So I'd be interested in what the opinion is from people who are condemning Jerry Rice, but who (presumably) wouldn't do the same to their beloved Patriots.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 02:39PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Fair enough if you don't think it tarnishes Rice's reputation either. For what it's worth, I agree with you, for both the Pats and Rice, the stories do not undermine their legacy as the greatest team/player of their generation. It's not aimed at you then, I suppose, but rather those who are claiming that Rice is out of the conversation for best of all time because of the stickum thing, but who would NOT exclude the Patriots from such discussion. The argument that everyone was doing what the Patriots were doing applies equally to Jerry Rice. So I'd be interested in what the opinion is from people who are condemning Jerry Rice, but who (presumably) wouldn't do the same to their beloved Patriots.

I find it very hard to believe that Rice was alone. There was plenty who were probably pretty angry that Rice had that brain fart (why admit it) and perhaps starting the questioning of others.

Rice was great. He used stickum. Yeah, he shouldn't have, but my guess is that cheating was more widespread in the days without second-by-second coverage of everything.

I'm not going to speak for any other Pats fan, this is just my opinion; but the I'd imagine that some of those Pats fans condemning him (not just on here) have dealt with so many snide and derogatory remarks towards their team (for what I consider a minor enough offence in the greater scheme of things), that when someone like the great Jerry admitting to cheating, and the same condemnation is a drop in the ocean by comparison, that it can be infuriating. I mean, we were on about HGH and stickum, and it gets sidetracked to the Pats.
Of course, they may just feel that Jerry's offence was that great. I don't, but that's just my opinion.

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 02:39PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

No. Cause every team was doing it, the Pats were doing it from an illegal position. They thought wrongly they had a loophole, they didn't and were punished.

One team cheats, pleads ignorance and says everyone else was doing it. Claim they thought they had a loophole that they never figured to verify, get punished - but not retroactively.

One player cheats, pleads ignorance and says everyone else was doing it. Claims he thought he had a loophole that he never figured to verify, would surely get punished by can't as retired for a decade - is not retroactively.

They seem pretty similar to me.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 02:54PM

Billy86 wrote: »

One team cheats, pleads ignorance and says everyone else was doing it. Claim they thought they had a loophole that they never figured to verify, get punished - but not retroactively.

One player cheats, pleads ignorance and says everyone else was doing it. Claims he thought he had a loophole that he never figured to verify, would surely get punished by can't as retired for a decade - is not retroactively.

They seem pretty similar to me.

Rice came out and admitted to using stickum.
I only said if someone came out and said they admitted using HGH, it would be a better comparison.

And you decide to involve the Pats. Ok. Up to you.

Knex* · 12-01-2016 02:59PM

Jerry Rice once downloaded a car.

Tom Brady now drives it.

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-01-2016 03:05PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I find it very hard to believe that Rice was alone. There was plenty who were probably pretty angry that Rice had that brain fart (why admit it) and perhaps starting the questioning of others.

Rice was great. He used stickum. Yeah, he shouldn't have, but my guess is that cheating was more widespread in the days without second-by-second coverage of everything.

I'm not going to speak for any other Pats fan, this is just my opinion; but the I'd imagine that some of those Pats fans condemning him (not just on here) have dealt with so many snide and derogatory remarks towards their team (for what I consider a minor enough offence in the greater scheme of things), that when someone like the great Jerry admitting to cheating, and the same condemnation is a drop in the ocean by comparison, that it can be infuriating. I mean, we were on about HGH and stickum, and it gets sidetracked to the Pats.
Of course, they may just feel that Jerry's offence was that great. I don't, but that's just my opinion.

The HGH thing turning into a deflategate discussion was pretty funny.

Anyway both the Rice and Patriots things are just sticks to beat the successful with. There isn't a sport in which it doesn't happen.

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 03:39PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Rice came out and admitted to using stickum.
I only said if someone came out and said they admitted using HGH, it would be a better comparison.

Not admitting guilt when it is absolutely clear beyond the point of being able to deny it with a straight face does not at all, in any way, absolve one's guilt. There is a reason why in the legal system, if anything it tends to lead to a stronger punishment if found guilty, which the Patriots absolutely were regarding Spygate.

And you decide to involve the Pats. Ok. Up to you.

AND I also decided to involve Clay Matthews.

Though involving the Pats stems from a NE fan who if I recall is strongly of the opinion that Brady is the GOAT essentially claiming "cheating is cheating is cheating and automatically eliminates someone from being the GOAT", which comes across as quite the double standard.

If someone thinks it diminishes both (Pats & Rice) or neither, that's grand. I just don't get how someone can say it diminishes Rice out of the GOAT discussion while also claiming Brady is the GOAT despite all else. EDIT: Personally I think Rice is the GOAT WR with ease (though Moss was more talented), and Brady is likely in a tie with Joe Montana for GOAT QB (though Rodgers, Young, and Otto Graham are/were arguably more talented). GOAT factoring in consistency, longevity, winnings (not just 'rings'), leadership and a number of other factors.

12-01-2016 03:42PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

The HGH thing turning into a deflategate discussion was pretty funny.

Anyway both the Rice and Patriots things are just sticks to beat the successful with. There isn't a sport in which it doesn't happen.

Funnily enough this ended up the successful beating each other with sticks

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 12-01-2016 03:53PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Not admitting guilt when it is absolutely clear beyond the point of being able to deny it with a straight face does not at all, in any way, absolve one's guilt. There is a reason why in the legal system, if anything it tends to lead to a stronger punishment if found guilty, which the Patriots absolutely were regarding Spygate.

AND I also decided to involve Clay Matthews.

Though involving the Pats stems from a NE fan who if I recall is strongly of the opinion that Brady is the GOAT essentially claiming "cheating is cheating is cheating and automatically eliminates someone from being the GOAT", which comes across as quite the double standard.

If someone thinks it diminishes both (Pats & Rice) or neither, that's grand. I just don't get how someone can say it diminishes Rice out of the GOAT discussion while also claiming Brady is the GOAT despite all else. EDIT: Personally I think Rice is the GOAT WR with ease, and Brady is likely in a tie with Joe Montana for GOAT QB.

Brady is the GOAT at QB .. I don't think there is a case to be made for anyone to be better than him at this stage but look it's all opinion so it's not worth the paper it's written on. And I am absolutely not a Patriots or Brady fan, in fact I despise both.

As regards WR, Rice is definitely in the conversation but the WR crop that are currently playing are going to get very close. Megatron has to be there or there abouts, He's on track to be just as good and is like 100 yards shy of Rice at this stage. Also Rice had some quality throwing him the ball and Megatron has Matt Stafford, who is good but will never be in the Young/Montana class.

But the WR is far more complicated by the fact that right now we could have 3 of the greatest WR's ever, playing at the same time in Antonio Brown, Megatron, and Julio Jones (who's career numbers per game is the highest ever in the NFL)

12-01-2016 03:59PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

OK, you want to go all drama about it, I'm out of discussing this with you.

The Pats were caught cheating. Rice admitted to it. There is no drama from me, I'm enjoying this idea that there is a hierarchy of honour amongst cheats because someone thought something about some loophole allowing them to cheat!

For all that, it's a bit historical now. In fact both are. But lets not pretend the cheating by an individual somehow should draw more opprobrium than by an organisation.

JCTO · 12-01-2016 04:05PM

The gloves players wear today are better than stickum without the mess. Stickum is also not as great as people make it out to be. Be also naive to think Rice was the only one doing it back then. Probably why he had no issue admitting it.

adrian522 · 12-01-2016 04:06PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

Brady is the GOAT at QB .. I don't think there is a case to be made for anyone to be better than him at this stage but look it's all opinion so it's not worth the paper it's written on. And I am absolutely not a Patriots or Brady fan, in fact I despise both.

As regards WR, Rice is definitely in the conversation but the WR crop that are currently playing are going to get very close. Megatron has to be there or there abouts, He's on track to be just as good and is like 100 yards shy of Rice at this stage. Also Rice had some quality throwing him the ball and Megatron has Matt Stafford, who is good but will never be in the Young/Montana class.

But the WR is far more complicated by the fact that right now we could have 3 of the greatest WR's ever, playing at the same time in Antonio Brown, Megatron, and Julio Jones (who's career numbers per game is the highest ever in the NFL)

Ah here. Montana is certainly at least "in the conversation", you can argue it whatever way you want.

And megatron is a long, long way off what Jerry Rice achieved in an era where WR's could actually be hit without drawing penalties.

Brilliant and all as Megatron was for a few years Rice was phenomenal for 20 years. His numbers are staggering, no one is even close to his yards or reception totals.

Rice has double the amount of career receiving yards as Johnson. Double. (22,000 to 11,000) More than double the amount of TD's and more than double the amount of receptions.

Megatron, Brown, Jones etc are nowhere near the greatest of all time at receiver.

Hazys · 12-01-2016 04:18PM

I think the whole Jerry Rice thing is funny and basically shows how much of an idiot he is. They guy is an all time great but he can't land a TV gig because basically hes a bit retarded.

The reason all this came out was because during the week before the Super Bowl, Rice got on his high horse called the Patriots cheaters and if they went on to win the Super Bowl they should have an asterisk next to it.

"I'm going to be point blank, I feel like it's cheating," Rice said. "Because you have an edge up on your opponent and its unfortunate that it happened.... I've played in cold weather, I know how hard the football is and you can grip the leather just a little bit better [if it's deflated]."

"I think you have to really put an asterisk on it, because this is going to follow them, you know, for the rest of their lives, because when you look at it, when people go back and they think about the New England Patriots, they're going to think about these controversies," Rice said.

Even worse for Rice is what he said next, "I've always wanted to do things the right way," Rice said. "I didn't want to take any short cuts or anything like that."

Only for people to dig up this interview where he said:

"I know this might be a little illegal, guys, I just put a little spray, a little stickum on them, to make sure that texture is a little sticky"

So basically he's a full on hypocrite.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 04:21PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Not admitting guilt when it is absolutely clear beyond the point of being able to deny it with a straight face does not at all, in any way, absolve one's guilt. There is a reason why in the legal system, if anything it tends to lead to a stronger punishment if found guilty, which the Patriots absolutely were regarding Spygate..

And what has any of that to do with admitting using HGH/stickum in the comparison I was making?

Billy86 wrote: »

Though involving the Pats stems from a NE fan who if I recall is strongly of the opinion that Brady is the GOAT essentially claiming "cheating is cheating is cheating and automatically eliminates someone from being the GOAT", which comes across as quite the double standard..

And what has any of that to do with me or the point of comparison I was making?

And what cheating did Brady do? He wasn't involved in Spygate, and an independent minded judge ripped the NFL's case/evidence during proceedings and eventually ruled against the NFL.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 04:28PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But lets not pretend the cheating by an individual somehow should draw more opprobrium than by an organisation.

That's not what was done. At least go back on the thread and where it started with regards to my input. There's no pretending being done on my part.

The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

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