Unfair claim settlement after minor accident

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 12:37pm #1

Hi,

a good while ago my partner, who is insured underway policy was involved in a minor crash. She literally dinged into van as she pulled out of her work place's drive way.
Initially we could agree on an outside insurance settlement with the driver but a few weeks later the cheque we gave him over a minor sum that he accepted was returned by his solicitor was the announcement that the driver, along with his daughter were going the full monty on this, personal injury and all.

Everybody involve, including the garda who recorded the accident are sure that these claims are utter BS and, in fact, our insurer is contesting the daughter's claims. Not so, as of today, the driver's ones. They are going to hand out 15k to him in settlement. I am fuming about this and I'm basically done with my insurance company. I feel misrepresented and will have to pick up the tab through loss of my no-claims bonus. The insurer's solicitor is frequently contacting us regarding the other claim but as of now, I have no desire to comply anymore. In fact, I'd love to see the insurer pay through their nose and fail the court case miserably. That's how angry I am and in fact, I envy the claimants for their balls to get away with this kind of ****, while I wouldn't dare to make such false claims. Indeed, I'd love to be rewarded 15k or more just for fun. So, I'm happy for the injured party to line their pockets, and I'm happy to see my insurer cash it all out.

Needless to say, I'll be switching insurance soon as I can.

However, I wonder if I am legally obliged to comply with my insurance company. Would there be any repercussions for me if I stop corresponding with my insurance company over this case? Would my premium go up if they lost the second case?

Barr · 05-01-2016 12:41pm

Afraid you are stuck with your current Insurer with an open claim.

gctest50 · 05-01-2016 12:53pm

Eltoten wrote: »

..... I am fuming about this and I'm basically done with my insurance company.

Needless to say, I'll be switching insurance soon as I can.
.....

Very important, before you do anything else :

Phone another insurance company and (say) tell them 6 months ago your partner crashed into a van and there was injuries and it was settled and they paid etc

Ask the "new" company for a quote

Prisoner6409 · 05-01-2016 12:54pm

Welcome to the Insurance industry snd why insurance is generally soooo expensive but I suspect they would claim it is less costly to pay out than to fight the case although thid does nothing to deter bogus claims. Take a look at medical insurance, none of the bills sent in from the hodpitals checked wirh the insured person, just paid. The worst of it is when a claim is made there is no chance another insurer will touch you for at least a year or if they do will add a huge hike.

Eltoten wrote: »

Hi,

a good while ago my partner, who is insured underway policy was involved in a minor crash. She literally dinged into van as she pulled out of her work place's drive way.
Initially we could agree on an outside insurance settlement with the driver but a few weeks later the cheque we gave him over a minor sum that he accepted was returned by his solicitor was the announcement that the driver, along with his daughter were going the full monty on this, personal injury and all.

Everybody involve, including the garda who recorded the accident are sure that these claims are utter BS and, in fact, our insurer is contesting the daughter's claims. Not so, as of today, the driver's ones. They are going to hand out 15k to him in settlement. I am fuming about this and I'm basically done with my insurance company. I feel misrepresented and will have to pick up the tab through loss of my no-claims bonus. The insurer's solicitor is frequently contacting us regarding the other claim but as of now, I have no desire to comply anymore. In fact, I'd love to see the insurer pay through their nose and fail the court case miserably. That's how angry I am and in fact, I envy the claimants for their balls to get away with this kind of ****, while I wouldn't dare to make such false claims. Indeed, I'd love to be rewarded 15k or more just for fun. So, I'm happy for the injured party to line their pockets, and I'm happy to see my insurer cash it all out.

Needless to say, I'll be switching insurance soon as I can.

However, I wonder if I am legally obliged to comply with my insurance company. Would there be any repercussions for me if I stop corresponding with my insurance company over this case? Would my premium go up if they lost the second case?

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 12:55pm

Barr wrote: »

Afraid you are stuck with your current Insurer with an open claim.

Unfortunately. I am not worried about that. I'm worried about the repercussions if I don't comply with my insurer anymore.

Toyotafanboi · 05-01-2016 12:59pm

this might be kind of pedantic, but i'd try (if there is even a way) to look into the "van" aspect of this. was it a work van the man was driving and if so was it insured solely for business of for private use too? i'd assume if his daughter was in the van, it wasn't being used for work unless she is an employee. but maybe this is why they dropped the daughters claim anyway. you mightn't get anywhere, but if you are looking to give him a fright, there might be something in it.

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 1:00pm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

this might be kind of pedantic, but i'd try (if there is even a way) to look into the "van" aspect of this. was it a work van the man was driving and if so was it insured solely for business of for private use too? i'd assume if his daughter was in the van, it wasn't being used for work unless she is an employee. but maybe this is why they dropped the daughters claim anyway. you mightn't get anywhere, but if you are looking to give him a fright, there might be something in it.

Na, it was a privately owned van.

Barr · 05-01-2016 1:01pm

Do you know why they are paying one party and are choosing to defend the other - seems a bit odd to say the least.

RainyDay · 05-01-2016 1:04pm

Eltoten wrote: »

Unfortunately. I am not worried about that. I'm worried about the repercussions if I don't comply with my insurer anymore.

One possible repercussion is that your current insurer refuses to insure you when your current policy expires, and other insurers refuse to take you on with an open claim on your record.

I know these situations are frustrating, but insurance companies don't generally hand out large amounts of money unless they reckon that they would lose a court case.

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 1:05pm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

this might be kind of pedantic, but i'd try (if there is even a way) to look into the "van" aspect of this. was it a work van the man was driving and if so was it insured solely for business of for private use too? i'd assume if his daughter was in the van, it wasn't being used for work unless she is an employee. but maybe this is why they dropped the daughters claim anyway. you mightn't get anywhere, but if you are looking to give him a fright, there might be something in it.

Barr wrote: »

Do you know why they are paying one party and are choosing to defend the other - seems a bit odd to say the least.

It's beyond me. What I got from my insurer is that these are two different cases and are evaluated as such. I guess, the odds were different.

ironclaw · 05-01-2016 1:09pm

RainyDay wrote: »

insurance companies don't generally hand out large amounts of money unless they reckon that they would lose a court case.

You'd spend 15k on court fee's in about a day. Its always cheaper to settle. That's the problem. Ireland needs an independent court system for minor motor and injury claims, that's fast and efficient with settlements made by trained arbitrators and assessors. Sore neck? Here is your medical costs and a little for the inconvenience, not 'here's a pile of money so you never have to work again'

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 1:10pm

RainyDay wrote: »

I know these situations are frustrating, but insurance companies don't generally hand out large amounts of money unless they reckon that they would lose a court case.

Yes, that's what they also told me. I know, I'm stuck with them and I also know that without them, I'd have to face all the costs myself and end up paying much more than an increased premium. It's just so frustrating to see how easy it is to get away with bogus claims here. It's not even the insurers who are at fault, I suppose, it's the court system and the judges who don't seem to be able to crack down on these kind of crimes. In fact, they are the enablers.

the_sonandmoon · 05-01-2016 1:20pm

ironclaw wrote: »

You'd spend 15k on court fee's in about a day. Its always cheaper to settle. That's the problem. Ireland needs an independent court system for minor motor and injury claims, that's fast and efficient with settlements made by trained arbitrators and assessors. Sore neck? Here is your medical costs and a little for the inconvenience, not 'here's a pile of money so you never have to work again'

Thats the idea behind PIAB, introduced a few years ago - not just for motor claims though, but all sorts of personal injuries. It hasn't been taken up all that well though, because it is seen that judges award rates, and cases are settled, for more than the value of what PIAB offers

Barr · 05-01-2016 1:21pm

Eltoten wrote: »

Yes, that's what they also told me. I know, I'm stuck with them and I also know that without them, I'd have to face all the costs myself and end up paying much more than an increased premium. It's just so frustrating to see how easy it is to get away with bogus claims here. It's not even the insurers who are at fault, I suppose, it's the court system and the judges who don't seem to be able to crack down on these kind of crimes. In fact, they are the enablers.

I know you are frustrated but the fact your insurer is contesting the daughters claim is a positive thing.

They must believe there is something bogus happening.

If I were you , I would co-operate fully and at the very least don’t give the other party an easy ride.

If they can’t defend the case then she will be paid as well.

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 1:26pm

ironclaw wrote: »

You'd spend 15k on court fee's in about a day. Its always cheaper to settle. That's the problem. Ireland needs an independent court system for minor motor and injury claims, that's fast and efficient with settlements made by trained arbitrators and assessors. Sore neck? Here is your medical costs and a little for the inconvenience, not 'here's a pile of money so you never have to work again'

It's insane. In other countries, Germany for instance, in jury claims are scrutinised much more and compensations paid out for this type of injury are usually in the low hundreds. For some reason, the Irish legislator is unwilling to proactively put an end to this type of claim culture. As a result, people whose premiums go up because of high and unjustified claims will do the same, if they become victims of a crash. I'll probably be one of them now. Although I'd feel bad about it, I'd simply do it out of spite.

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 1:29pm

Barr wrote: »

I know you are frustrated but the fact your insurer is contesting the daughters claim is a positive thing.

They must believe there is something bogus happening.

If I were you , I would co-operate fully and at the very least don’t give the other party an easy ride.

If they can’t defend the case then she will be paid as well.

They know it's all bogus. That's what the insurance rep told me on the phone. The only reason they are not contesting the driver's claim is, that their chances of succeeding are quite low. It's clearly the judges who are at fault for being too soft.

All I can hope for is, that if the daughter looses and has no legal insurance, much of the 15k may go into paying legal costs.

robarmstrong · 05-01-2016 1:31pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Very important, before you do anything else :

Phone another insurance company and (say) tell them 6 months ago your partner crashed into a van and there was injuries and it was settled and they paid etc

Ask the "new" company for a quote

Won't OP get done for that? Something along the lines of failing to fully disclose etc?

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 1:32pm

the_sonandmoon wrote: »

Thats the idea behind PIAB, introduced a few years ago - not just for motor claims though, but all sorts of personal injuries. It hasn't been taken up all that well though, because it is seen that judges award rates, and cases are settled, for more than the value of what PIAB offers

The 15k rewarded to the driver is based on the PIAB assessment. It seems that this board is not worth it's money. They can't tell their own arses from a hole in the ground.

robarmstrong · 05-01-2016 1:37pm

Eltoten wrote: »

The 15k rewarded to the driver is based on the PIAB assessment. It seems that this board is not worth it's money. They can't tell their own arses from a hole in the ground.

Your insurance company as well is kinda acting the maggot. I had an incident a while back where someone rolled into the front of my car. This person had no witnesses, I had 4 all submit statements that the third party rolled into the front of my car. I got out, took a look around the cars, no damage to either one.

I didn't call the Gardai but I informed my insurance company right away. Despite me having 4 witnesses, her having none, an assessor come out to both cars and say there was no point of impact (meaning it must have been minimal) my insurance company said I was at fault and the claim is still open.

She's claiming for severe whiplash and damages to her car which have already been deemed not related to my actual impact... So why is her claim against me still open?!

Eltoten · 05-01-2016 1:37pm

robarmstrong wrote: »

Won't OP get done for that? Something along the lines of failing to fully disclose etc?

I wouldn't do that anyway. The increased premium is an inconvenience and certainly not worth the risk.

gctest50 · 05-01-2016 1:47pm

robarmstrong wrote: »

Won't OP get done for that? Something along the lines of failing to fully disclose etc?

sorry I meant to finish it off :

tell the "new" insurance company you had an accident six months ago - see how much extra they ask for

It's just to get an idea of what you'd be heading into
.

dr.fuzzenstein · 05-01-2016 2:07pm

Eltoten wrote: »

Yes, that's what they also told me. I know, I'm stuck with them and I also know that without them, I'd have to face all the costs myself and end up paying much more than an increased premium. It's just so frustrating to see how easy it is to get away with bogus claims here. It's not even the insurers who are at fault, I suppose, it's the court system and the judges who don't seem to be able to crack down on these kind of crimes. In fact, they are the enablers.

It's theft, pure and simple.. I don't know what else you could call faking an injury in order to get money. But it's not all the fault of the greedy scam artist who smells money, this goes far beyond that.
I cannot for the life of me figure out how and why the judges facilitate this scam. The only possible explanation would be that the judges are in on this and are getting a percentage of the payouts, that's why they are so stupidly high. So that must mean the judges get a brown envelope from the prosecuting solicitor, because ambulance chasing is a nice, lucrative business and as with any kind of dodgy racket, you have to grease the wheels to keep the machinery going.
So this has to be a scam involving backhanders from "no win, no fee" solicitors to the judges, with a few pennies set aside for the political establishment to turn a blind eye to this scam. That would be the reason the insurance companies are not contesting cases, they know that despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, a crooked judge will ALWAYS find against them.

RainyDay · 05-01-2016 2:07pm

ironclaw wrote: »

You'd spend 15k on court fee's in about a day. '

It won't cost you a penny if you win your case. The other guy will pay. If the insurance company was confident of winning the case, they would contest it.

Eltoten wrote: »

The 15k rewarded to the driver is based on the PIAB assessment. It seems that this board is not worth it's money. They can't tell their own arses from a hole in the ground.

The PIAB only get involved where liability is not contested.

ironclaw · 05-01-2016 2:44pm

RainyDay wrote: »

It won't cost you a penny if you win your case. The other guy will pay. If the insurance company was confident of winning the case, they would contest it./QUOTE]

But do you A) Involve a few members of staff and legal council for a number of weeks, pay them and then maybe recoup the cost if you win? or Write a cheque for €15k and have a cup of tea? Seems to me that insurance companies do the latter and it makes perfect financial sense.

I'd be interested to speak to someone far better versed than myself but surely their must be a bubble forming here. You pay out larger and larger sums each year, a culture develops and some serial offenders are occasionally caught. However costs also rise. You then lamp these increases of both claims and costs onto the customer, at some point it must break whereby the customer can no longer afford and the claim payouts become uneconomical to continue business. That said, isn't insurance State guaranteed via the pool they all pay into to avoid anyone going belly up? So is it just a case of vested interest and the knowledge that people have to, via the statues, have valid insurance. Sounds like a perfect market place really.

Caliden · 05-01-2016 3:04pm

Ireland and the UK are the whiplash capitals of Europe. The reason is that very little evidence is needed to prove whiplash whereas in France and Germany have rigorous medical tests. Sweden even has a time limit of 72 hours for symptoms.

At the moment it's just far far too easy to claim whiplash and get a payout because of soft judges awarding massive settlements.

From this article: "Whiplash now accounts for 78pc of all personal injury claims in the UK compared with just 3pc in France....... The result of far fewer claims is that motor insurance costs 40pc less."

Source

gctest50 · 05-01-2016 3:11pm

RainyDay wrote: »

It won't cost you a penny if you win your case. The other guy will pay. If the insurance company was confident of winning the case, they would contest it............

It's not "your case" though, it's the insurance companies one

dr.fuzzenstein · 05-01-2016 3:16pm

Caliden wrote: »

Ireland and the UK are the whiplash capitals of Europe. The reason is that very little evidence is needed to prove whiplash whereas in France and Germany have rigorous medical tests. Sweden even has a time limit of 72 hours for symptoms.

At the moment it's just far far too easy to claim whiplash and get a payout because of soft judges awarding massive settlements.

From this article: "Whiplash now accounts for 78pc of all personal injury claims in the UK compared with just 3pc in France....... The result of far fewer claims is that motor insurance costs 40pc less."

Source

Because ambulance chasing and claims farming has reached utterly gigantic propartions in the UK, they simply decided to do away with cahs rewards for sore necks:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/autumn-statement/12017199/Autumn-Statement-2015-End-of-the-road-for-dodgy-whiplash-claims.html

This will HAVE to come in here.

coylemj · 05-01-2016 4:55pm

RainyDay wrote: »

It won't cost you a penny if you win your case. The other guy will pay. If the insurance company was confident of winning the case, they would contest it.

As has been pointed out, it's not the OP's case, it's his insurance company's case and even if they contest the case and win, the likelihood is that they will not be able to recoup their costs from the other guy so they (the OP's insurance company) will probably have to pay their legal team whether they win or lose.

So their choices are (1) give the guy 15K to p1ss off (2) contest the case, win and end up paying their own lawyers fees - 15K (3) contest the case, lose and pay the other guy 15K for his 'injuries', pay their own lawyers 15K and the same to his lawyers - 45K in total.

I can see why insurance companies settle but if the ambulance chasers thought that they'd get short shrift from the judges with these frivolous whiplash claims, this wouldn't be happening. It's the fear of what will happen in court that deters insurance companies from contesting the cases. Judges need to wise up to this blatant scam.

dr.fuzzenstein · 05-01-2016 6:31pm

^^^^
I would suggest that judges should be smart enough to know that when 5 people had an "accident" at 5 km/h involving their cousin who "happened" to be in the other can and they're all claiming €20k each for whiplash, this is more than a bit dodgy and that the medical reports came from Dr. Nick, but they chose to ignore the facts and just award damages anyway.
Why on earth would a judge do that? To award money to blatant scammers, one would have to assume that judges are aware of the fact and to award stupid money for superficial and mostly fictitious injuries, the only possible motive for the judges has to he financial.
I'm saying judges are bought by ambulance chasers to award massive amounts of money to blatant scammers. There is absolutely no other explanation for what's going on in Ireland.

edit:
I know I'm repeating myself, but if stuff like this is legit, I will eat my house.

To Elland Back · 05-01-2016 9:37pm

Seriously OP? You are angry about your insurer taking this course of action and you have withdrawn your co-operation. What exactly do you think they can defend your position with? When the 3rd party's solicitor finds this out, they will ride you sideways

BTW, failure to assist your insurers is a breech of your policy conditions and gives them the right to reclaim their outlay from you

Your insurers were not involved in the accident. You/the driver are the only people who can assist in deflecting this bogus claim

RainyDay · 06-01-2016 12:12am

gctest50 wrote: »

It's not "your case" though, it's the insurance companies one

coylemj wrote: »

As has been pointed out, it's not the OP's case, it's his insurance company's case and even if they contest the case and win, the likelihood is that they will not be able to recoup their costs from the other guy so they (the OP's insurance company) will probably have to pay their legal team whether they win or lose.

So their choices are (1) give the guy 15K to p1ss off (2) contest the case, win and end up paying their own lawyers fees - 15K (3) contest the case, lose and pay the other guy 15K for his 'injuries', pay their own lawyers 15K and the same to his lawyers - 45K in total.

Please don't be pedantic. I was speaking from the insurance company's point of view. From their point of view, they can seek 'security for costs', so the other side has to put up a bond for costs before the case can proceed. If the others lose, they pay the costs.

ironclaw wrote: »

But do you A) Involve a few members of staff and legal council for a number of weeks, pay them and then maybe recoup the cost if you win? or Write a cheque for €15k and have a cup of tea? Seems to me that insurance companies do the latter and it makes perfect financial sense.

If (like just about every other business in the world) the insurance claims guy is measured, incentivised and bonused based on how little cash he loses, it makes perfect sense for them to fight the case if they have reasonable confidence that they will win. Paying out money is generally bad for any business, and they tend to avoid it when they can.

coylemj · 06-01-2016 12:23am

RainyDay wrote: »

Please don't be pedantic. I was speaking from the insurance company's point of view. From their point of view, they can seek 'security for costs', so the other side has to put up a bond for costs before the case can proceed. If the others lose, they pay the costs.

If insurance companies could get away with that tactic in personal injury cases, every ambulance chasing lawyer in the country would be out of business in the morning.

It would also mean that justice in the courts would be denied to a large section of the population because it would put the pursuit of a case for personal injury in the same league as suing for defamation which nowadays is the exclusive preserve of the rich.

dr.fuzzenstein · 06-01-2016 10:25am

RainyDay wrote: »

If (like just about every other business in the world) the insurance claims guy is measured, incentivised and bonused based on how little cash he loses, it makes perfect sense for them to fight the case if they have reasonable confidence that they will win. Paying out money is generally bad for any business, and they tend to avoid it when they can.

It makes no sense for him to fight the case. Even if they win, costs may not be awarded to the other side. As already established, judges hand out money like sweets and don't seem too bothered about real evidence of actual injuries. That means that fighting even the more dodgy cases is an exercise in futility, since in the end it will save nothing, or could even end up costing more. So it makes sense for the insurance companies to just hand out money instead of going to court and ending up having to hand over three times as much.
One could argue that insurance companies get tough and they should fight every single case through the courts and only pay out as a last resort, but the problem with that is, it would probably double their payouts and in the end it is not sure if this would really deter claims. The ball is in the state's court and it is up to them to change this situation.

Let's have a look what the state has done so far. Well, Alan Shatter has increased the payout levels in the circuit courts from €15k to a whopping €75k!
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR14000025
So he has made it even easier to get loadsamoney from <SNIP> circuit court judges, this to me proves that the government has zero interest in curbing the compo culture in this country, but in fact are stoking it as best as they can.
The fact that a 10 year old car turns into a dangerous deathtrap and useless banger overnight should tell us something. The insurance companies are desperate and all they have at their disposal is to introduce ever tighter regulations regards driver and car and keep jacking up the premium. Soon only Mary, a 45 year old accountant from Cork, driving a 1 liter Yaris no more than 15k km a year, will be able to even get insurance. Drive at night? Fcuk off. Drive an "interesting" car? Fcuk off. Have a long commute? Fcuk off. Live somewhere that isn't Dalkey? Fcuk off. A rep and need to traverse the cou8ntry? Fcuk off. Under 40? Fcuk off. If you Do get insurance, that'll be €2k please. That is the future we are looking at.

RainyDay · 06-01-2016 2:12pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It makes no sense for him to fight the case. Even if they win, costs may not be awarded to the other side. As already established, judges hand out money like sweets and don't seem too bothered about real evidence of actual injuries. That means that fighting even the more dodgy cases is an exercise in futility, since in the end it will save nothing, or could even end up costing more. So it makes sense for the insurance companies to just hand out money instead of going to court and ending up having to hand over three times as much.
One could argue that insurance companies get tough and they should fight every single case through the courts and only pay out as a last resort, but the problem with that is, it would probably double their payouts and in the end it is not sure if this would really deter claims. The ball is in the state's court and it is up to them to change this situation.

Where are the newspaper or court reports of all these cases where the judges throw money at dodgy claimants?

MarkAnthony · 06-01-2016 2:17pm

What a lot of nonsense.

A circuit court Judge was deemed fit to try a serious sexual assault but not a case involving more than €15K? The limits needed increasing so that people could get access to the lower courts and the lower costs.

The insurance lobby has been responsible for the removal of Juries from civil claims not the courts service, judges will go on the evidence presented to them. They can't decide the evidence is false on the basis that 'insurance costs are high therefore the person must be hamming it up'.

Ya know what stops a lot of claims against you? Not crashing into things.

dr.fuzzenstein · 06-01-2016 2:45pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Where are the newspaper or court reports of all these cases where the judges throw money at dodgy claimants?

There are none for the good reason that once a judge awards money to someone who is obviously on the scam, it would be very hard to write a newspaper article about it, calling it a scam. However, the level of payout definitely invites theft. Besides, the media in Ireland only want to write gushing articles over whoever sponsors their cheeserag, so any kind of investigative journalism (or serious journalism of any kind) is next to impossible here.
Coming back to the amount paid out, in Germany you might get somewhere between €500 and €2000, here you will get 10 times that. That amount of compensation practically invites theft. Especially since in other countries you will be jailed for fraud, while here it's "too bad, no payout today, better luck next time" and you are invited to go again. As many times as you like, you will get lucky next time.
In the UK the press is a lot more forward when it comes to writing about suspect claims, since a lot of the papers there are less afraid to speak out and the journalists are not on the payroll of the sponsor and their main job is not to dress their press releases up as "News".
Also, the vast majority of cases never reach court. because the insurers know the judges will award money away, it is nonsensical for insurers to even go to court. However, obtaining a payout without going to court is no less fraud. It's just easier fraud.

Check this out:
http://www.injuryclaimireland.ie/98-injury-claims-settled-court/
98% of claims are settled out of court. Does that mean that 98% of claims are genuine? Not in a million years. This neatly illustrates my point, pointless go to court, just throw some easy money at them, even if it's blatant. The problem is, there are no statistics about successful crimes anywhere in the world, otherwise they wouldn't be successful. The article makes for disturbing reading.

To Elland Back · 06-01-2016 2:52pm

The current system doesn't serve us well. The blame for this rests with fraudsters, disproportionate compensation, the legal profession, the insurers, our standard of driving and the lack of enforcement of motoring laws by Gardai. Until there is a coordinated approach to a solution, claim costs and premiums will only spiral upwards

ironclaw · 06-01-2016 2:57pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The insurance lobby has been responsible for the removal of Juries from civil claims not the courts service, judges will go on the evidence presented to them. They can't decide the evidence is false on the basis that 'insurance costs are high therefore the person must be hamming it up'.

I think the bigger issue is the amount people can claim for. I know of one case where a person received north of €50k for a minor, non-life changing, knee injury while on a business premises. Another got a similar sum for an extremely low speed crash in a car park. There needs to be an independent review of pay out amounts and some form of 'norm' set.

Ya know what stops a lot of claims against you? Not crashing into things.

Its not what you hit, its what hits you. I have zero interest in claiming off anyone who hits me if they are amicable and happy to pay for the repair. Plenty of crash for cash schemes here, check out the DVR thread. One member had one very recently. And the motivating factor is the cash pay day at the end. Would you bother claiming if you got €2k for whiplash as opposed to €20k? Thats what most people make in a year. Not bad for a day's work.

MarkAnthony · 06-01-2016 3:03pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There are none for the good reason that once a judge awards money to someone who is obviously on the scam, it would be very hard to write a newspaper article about it, calling it a scam. However, the level of payout definitely invites theft. Besides, the media in Ireland only want to write gushing articles over whoever sponsors their cheeserag, so any kind of investigative journalism (or serious journalism of any kind) is next to impossible here.
Coming back to the amount paid out, in Germany you might get somewhere between €500 and €2000, here you will get 10 times that. That amount of compensation practically invites theft. Especially since in other countries you will be jailed for fraud, while here it's "too bad, no payout today, better luck next time" and you are invited to go again. As many times as you like, you will get lucky next time.
In the UK the press is a lot more forward when it comes to writing about suspect claims, since a lot of the papers there are less afraid to speak out and the journalists are not on the payroll of the sponsor and their main job is not to dress their press releases up as "News".
Also, the vast majority of cases never reach court. because the insurers know the judges will award money away, it is nonsensical for insurers to even go to court. However, obtaining a payout without going to court is no less fraud. It's just easier fraud.

Check this out:
http://www.injuryclaimireland.ie/98-injury-claims-settled-court/
98% of claims are settled out of court. Does that mean that 98% of claims are genuine? Not in a million years. This neatly illustrates my point, pointless go to court, just throw some easy money at them, even if it's blatant. The problem is, there are no statistics about successful crimes anywhere in the world, otherwise they wouldn't be successful. The article makes for disturbing reading.

How much did the German legal system cost per person vs. the Irish legal system. Please limit your answer to civil cases.

The German courts are a full blown civil law system that is vastly more expensive to run with a Judge having a completely different job to an Irish Judge.

Judges in Ireland listen, impartially, to the cases put in front of them and award based on PIAB and the book of quantum. It's vastly cheaper to the individual to bring a case in Germany and vastly more expensive to the taxpayer as a whole. It's also much more of an inquisitorial system than the common law system which is adversarial.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that the XYZ system is better, and indeed many PhDs have been thusly built, but the fact is we're not a civil law country.

Lets not forget the instant case didn't even go to court!

SnakePlissken · 06-01-2016 3:05pm

ironclaw wrote: »

Would you bother claiming if you got €2k for whiplash as opposed to €20k? Thats what most people make in a year. Not bad for a day's work.

Are you really suggesting that everyone who makes a personal injury claim citing whiplash is a scammer? Whiplash can be an incredible debilitating condition that can cause pain and loss of movement years after the event and is certainly not "one days work". As for the purported German payout of 200 euro for such a claim, I find this incredible difficult to believe considering the potentially life long lasting discomfort such an injury can bring.

MarkAnthony · 06-01-2016 3:05pm

ironclaw wrote: »

I think the bigger issue is the amount people can claim for. I know of one case where a person received north of €50k for a minor, non-life changing, knee injury while on a business premises. Another got a similar sum for an extremely low speed crash in a car park. There needs to be an independent review of pay out amounts and some form of 'norm' set.

How was the award made up? What evidence was produced. The Judge won't pull these figures out of their arses. Why shouldn't someone who is off work for 6 months from a €100,000 a year job be awarded at least €50,000 in losy earnings alone.

ironclaw wrote: »

Its not what you hit, its what hits you. I have zero interest in claiming off anyone who hits me if they are amicable and happy to pay for the repair. Plenty of crash for cash schemes here, check out the DVR thread. One member had one very recently. And the motivating factor is the cash pay day at the end. Would you bother claiming if you got €2k for whiplash as opposed to €20k? Thats what most people make in a year. Not bad for a day's work.

So you're bemoaning the chancing nature of Irish society? I'm with you brother.

mansize · 06-01-2016 3:06pm

Euros coming up lads expect PI claims to skyrocket

dr.fuzzenstein · 06-01-2016 3:19pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

How much did the German legal system cost per person vs. the Irish legal system. Please limit your answer to civil cases.

The German courts are a full blown civil law system that is vastly more expensive to run with a Judge having a completely different job to an Irish Judge.

Judges in Ireland listen, impartially, to the cases put in front of them and award based on PIAB and the book of quantum. It's vastly cheaper to the individual to bring a case in Germany and vastly more expensive to the taxpayer as a whole. It's also much more of an inquisitorial system than the common law system which is adversarial.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that the XYZ system is better, and indeed many PhDs have been thusly built, but the fact is we're not a civil law country.

Lets not forget the instant case didn't even go to court!

Let's look at these "impartial" payouts, shall we?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/boy-awarded-50-000-after-dishwasher-fire-led-to-nightmares-1.2471470

My dishwasher went on fire, i want 50k! here you go.

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/compensation-for-an-injury-caused-by-inadequate-training/

HALF A FCUKING MILL for a prolapsed disc. I should be a millionaire.

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/too-low-offer-of-compensation/

Cut on the leg? That'll be €30k please.

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/compensation-for-a-pallet-truck-accident/

€46k for falling over your own feet, sweet!

At the hearing, Judge Cross heard Castolin Eutectic argue that Daniel´s slip and fall injury was due to his own negligence.

it's your own fault, ya eejit! But you know what? Here's the money anyway.
What am I, some stupid cnut? I could be a multi millionaire by now!

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/compensation-for-a-slip-on-a-potato-wedge-in-dunnes/

Slipped on a potato wedge, yep, €23k.

I could post these all day. Evidence of stupid payouts INCLUDING ones where the judge finds the defendant was to blame and still got the money.
There you go, enjoy! And now tell me that all these claims are 100% above board, the poor diddums, jaysis don't they deserve a little something for their trouble, my heart bleeds for them. :rolleyes:

Oh what the hell, let's keep rollingL:

http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/irishcolumnists/aoifebannon/6093928/70000-award-to-br-garda-shows-we-br-need-to-cop-on.html

A gun being pulled at a cop? Surely that's never happened to any cop anywhere on Earth, only €70k can ease this man's terrible emotional suffering.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/row-with-bus-driver-over-euro50-note-traumatised-student-316133.html

If you have really, absolutely and POSITIVELY nothing to sue for, just sue the bus company for not accepting a €50 note. Now this one was settled out of court, but there is nowhere on EARTH this should even GET to court in the first place.

Eltoten · 06-01-2016 3:25pm

To Elland Back wrote: »

Seriously OP? You are angry about your insurer taking this course of action and you have withdrawn your co-operation. What exactly do you think they can defend your position with? When the 3rd party's solicitor finds this out, they will ride you sideways

BTW, failure to assist your insurers is a breech of your policy conditions and gives them the right to reclaim their outlay from you

Your insurers were not involved in the accident. You/the driver are the only people who can assist in deflecting this bogus claim

Firstly, I have not withdrawn my co-operatipon. So don't put words into my mouth.
Secondly, thank you, for giving me the answer I was looking for. It seems I am legally obliged to assist.
Thirdly, I was really upset but have since cooled down a bit. Although I am still angry at the court system here that allows this kind of carry on and for which all insured motorists end up paying. I also understand that the victim is entitled to some form of compensation for his troubles but 15K for an impact of the force that resembles a pet on the back is a little excessive.

MarkAnthony · 06-01-2016 3:29pm

I didn't say it was an impartial payout, the Judge will decide which party wins the case any payout according to the loss presented.

What's your alternative? Limit claims to a certain amount? Hows that fair when a surgeon with a history of incompetence kills your child?

It's alright winding yourself up, but you're missing a massive part of this process and simply grasping for a simple solution. There isn't one.

dr.fuzzenstein · 06-01-2016 3:34pm

Oh, I got a good one:

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/compensation-settlements-for-an-suv-accident/

Rental car, parties knew each other, no damage recorded, multiple occupants in the vehicle that got hit, what can i say, this one's got it all:

Enterprise Rent-a-Car and MIBI contested the claim on the grounds that the circumstances of the accident did not stand up to scrutiny. The defendants alleged that Jeremiah O´Brien and William O´Reilly were known to each other, and that when the Gardai attended the scene of the accident, no property damage was recorded.

So far, so very dodgy. I will very carefully say nothing that Rathkeale gets mentioned several times in this article. Also, why MIBI? Someone didn't have insurance? Who? Why isn't this mentioned?

Judge Fergus also heard about the various injuries that had been sustained by Mary and her passengers, and that one of the passengers – Lisa O´Reilly had already settled her claim out of court. The judge awarded multiple compensation settlements for an SUV accident to Mary O´Reilly (€7,500), Caitriona McDonagh (€10,000) and Breda McCarthy (€12,000). William O´Reilly was also awarded €4,800 for the property damage to his SUV.

That is a cool €31300 payout, not bad for "no recorded property damage".
This has all the hallmarks, yet a fat, juicy payout.
Anyone wanna tell me that the innocent victims of this tragic accident will have to live with their injuries and trauma for the rest of their lives and the money paid out to them pales in comparison to the devastation and suffering endured by these poor, brave souls? No? Thought not.

And YES! Payouts should be limited!
Slash whiplash from €20k to €5k and make sure some serious medical proof is required. Actually, I am too nice. Compensation awards in ireland should have a 0 lobbed off the end and they would still be in the European average.

Eltoten · 06-01-2016 3:39pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Ya know what stops a lot of claims against you? Not crashing into things.

And bringing down compensations for injury etc and exercising more rigour in the evaluation of injury claims would bring down your insurance premium, too. Accidents happen and will continue to happen, you won't stop that with smart comments. But handing out fantastic sums for minor injuries is something that can be stopped easily, if there just was political will.

Eltoten · 06-01-2016 3:57pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I didn't say it was an impartial payout, the Judge will decide which party wins the case any payout according to the loss presented.

What's your alternative? Limit claims to a certain amount? Hows that fair when a surgeon with a history of incompetence kills your child?

It's alright winding yourself up, but you're missing a massive part of this process and simply grasping for a simple solution. There isn't one.

How about using reason? You know how much compensation Lufthansa offered to the victims when that plane crashed in France last year? 20K per dead body. The Irish compensations Board recommended 15k for a sore neck. How's that for disproportion?

Also, there is a catalogue of compensations in place in countries like Germany, 500 for minor whiplash, 12000 for a torn neck artery, 3000 for a broken femur and so on.

dr.fuzzenstein · 06-01-2016 4:00pm

Eltoten wrote: »

How about using reason? You know how much compensation Lufthansa offered to the victims when that plane crashed in France last year? 20K per dead body. The Irish compensations Board recommended 15k for a sore neck. How's that for disproportion?

Also, there is a catalogue of compensations in place in countries like Germany, 500 for minor whiplash, 12000 for a torn neck artery, 3000 for a broken femur and so on.

I simply don't know how anyone could suggest €15k for a sore neck is a fair payout and keep a straight face at the same time. There is not a single argument for it.

livingthedream · 06-01-2016 4:06pm

Hi,

I feel your pain, I had a similar incident a few years ago.

Wife was driving my car and really slowly rolled into the back of car in front of us while waiting at a junction. Car in front had male driver and female passenger in the back with a baby on her lap (no car seat).

Guy got out of car all upset (fair enough). Looked at the damage which was superficial so I said for him to get a quote for repair as it didn't look like much.

2 weeks later he gives me a call saying the quote was 3000 for repair of car :eek: and he said "It could have been worse, at least nobody was hurt".

So I said fine, I'll put it through my insurance as it was going to be substantial money to get the car repaired. Contacted my insurance company and gave them the details.

A while later insurance company contacts me to let me know that they are taking personal injury claims for back/neck injuries :eek:

Their written version of events tells of them both being sitting in the front with seat belts on and their baby in the back seat in a car seat when we crashed into them! Guy from insurance company confirmed that their legal representation would be considered to be of the ambulance chasing kind..

Despite my protestations as to the inaccuracies of their account the whole thing was settled about a year later for circa 90K iirc which was split roughly 50:50 between legal and personal injury claims. :mad:
I don't mind paying for damages/injuries if they are genuine, that's why I have insurance and after all we were at fault but.........

Fortunately I had my no claims protected so it had a very minor effect on my premiums though I was tied to the same insurer for a further 5 years.

Needless to say that nowadays I have a dashcam in my car.......

~LTD.

MarkAnthony · 06-01-2016 4:20pm

Eltoten wrote: »

How about using reason? You know how much compensation Lufthansa offered to the victims when that plane crashed in France last year? 20K per dead body. The Irish compensations Board recommended 15k for a sore neck. How's that for disproportion?

Also, there is a catalogue of compensations in place in countries like Germany, 500 for minor whiplash, 12000 for a torn neck artery, 3000 for a broken femur and so on.

There is here too, as well as a total lack of understanding it seems.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I simply don't know how anyone could suggest €15k for a sore neck is a fair payout and keep a straight face at the same time. There is not a single argument for it.

€20K per body is though?

Unfair claim settlement after minor accident

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