Unfair claim settlement after minor accident

coylemj

RainyDay wrote: »

Please don't be pedantic. I was speaking from the insurance company's point of view. From their point of view, they can seek 'security for costs', so the other side has to put up a bond for costs before the case can proceed. If the others lose, they pay the costs.

If insurance companies could get away with that tactic in personal injury cases, every ambulance chasing lawyer in the country would be out of business in the morning.

It would also mean that justice in the courts would be denied to a large section of the population because it would put the pursuit of a case for personal injury in the same league as suing for defamation which nowadays is the exclusive preserve of the rich.

dr.fuzzenstein

RainyDay wrote: »

If (like just about every other business in the world) the insurance claims guy is measured, incentivised and bonused based on how little cash he loses, it makes perfect sense for them to fight the case if they have reasonable confidence that they will win. Paying out money is generally bad for any business, and they tend to avoid it when they can.

It makes no sense for him to fight the case. Even if they win, costs may not be awarded to the other side. As already established, judges hand out money like sweets and don't seem too bothered about real evidence of actual injuries. That means that fighting even the more dodgy cases is an exercise in futility, since in the end it will save nothing, or could even end up costing more. So it makes sense for the insurance companies to just hand out money instead of going to court and ending up having to hand over three times as much.
One could argue that insurance companies get tough and they should fight every single case through the courts and only pay out as a last resort, but the problem with that is, it would probably double their payouts and in the end it is not sure if this would really deter claims. The ball is in the state's court and it is up to them to change this situation.

Let's have a look what the state has done so far. Well, Alan Shatter has increased the payout levels in the circuit courts from €15k to a whopping €75k!
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR14000025
So he has made it even easier to get loadsamoney from <SNIP> circuit court judges, this to me proves that the government has zero interest in curbing the compo culture in this country, but in fact are stoking it as best as they can.
The fact that a 10 year old car turns into a dangerous deathtrap and useless banger overnight should tell us something. The insurance companies are desperate and all they have at their disposal is to introduce ever tighter regulations regards driver and car and keep jacking up the premium. Soon only Mary, a 45 year old accountant from Cork, driving a 1 liter Yaris no more than 15k km a year, will be able to even get insurance. Drive at night? Fcuk off. Drive an "interesting" car? Fcuk off. Have a long commute? Fcuk off. Live somewhere that isn't Dalkey? Fcuk off. A rep and need to traverse the cou8ntry? Fcuk off. Under 40? Fcuk off. If you Do get insurance, that'll be €2k please. That is the future we are looking at.

RainyDay

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It makes no sense for him to fight the case. Even if they win, costs may not be awarded to the other side. As already established, judges hand out money like sweets and don't seem too bothered about real evidence of actual injuries. That means that fighting even the more dodgy cases is an exercise in futility, since in the end it will save nothing, or could even end up costing more. So it makes sense for the insurance companies to just hand out money instead of going to court and ending up having to hand over three times as much.
One could argue that insurance companies get tough and they should fight every single case through the courts and only pay out as a last resort, but the problem with that is, it would probably double their payouts and in the end it is not sure if this would really deter claims. The ball is in the state's court and it is up to them to change this situation.

Where are the newspaper or court reports of all these cases where the judges throw money at dodgy claimants?

MarkAnthony

What a lot of nonsense.

A circuit court Judge was deemed fit to try a serious sexual assault but not a case involving more than €15K? The limits needed increasing so that people could get access to the lower courts and the lower costs.

The insurance lobby has been responsible for the removal of Juries from civil claims not the courts service, judges will go on the evidence presented to them. They can't decide the evidence is false on the basis that 'insurance costs are high therefore the person must be hamming it up'.

Ya know what stops a lot of claims against you? Not crashing into things.

dr.fuzzenstein

RainyDay wrote: »

Where are the newspaper or court reports of all these cases where the judges throw money at dodgy claimants?

There are none for the good reason that once a judge awards money to someone who is obviously on the scam, it would be very hard to write a newspaper article about it, calling it a scam. However, the level of payout definitely invites theft. Besides, the media in Ireland only want to write gushing articles over whoever sponsors their cheeserag, so any kind of investigative journalism (or serious journalism of any kind) is next to impossible here.
Coming back to the amount paid out, in Germany you might get somewhere between €500 and €2000, here you will get 10 times that. That amount of compensation practically invites theft. Especially since in other countries you will be jailed for fraud, while here it's "too bad, no payout today, better luck next time" and you are invited to go again. As many times as you like, you will get lucky next time.
In the UK the press is a lot more forward when it comes to writing about suspect claims, since a lot of the papers there are less afraid to speak out and the journalists are not on the payroll of the sponsor and their main job is not to dress their press releases up as "News".
Also, the vast majority of cases never reach court. because the insurers know the judges will award money away, it is nonsensical for insurers to even go to court. However, obtaining a payout without going to court is no less fraud. It's just easier fraud.

Check this out:
http://www.injuryclaimireland.ie/98-injury-claims-settled-court/
98% of claims are settled out of court. Does that mean that 98% of claims are genuine? Not in a million years. This neatly illustrates my point, pointless go to court, just throw some easy money at them, even if it's blatant. The problem is, there are no statistics about successful crimes anywhere in the world, otherwise they wouldn't be successful. The article makes for disturbing reading.

To Elland Back

The current system doesn't serve us well. The blame for this rests with fraudsters, disproportionate compensation, the legal profession, the insurers, our standard of driving and the lack of enforcement of motoring laws by Gardai. Until there is a coordinated approach to a solution, claim costs and premiums will only spiral upwards

ironclaw

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The insurance lobby has been responsible for the removal of Juries from civil claims not the courts service, judges will go on the evidence presented to them. They can't decide the evidence is false on the basis that 'insurance costs are high therefore the person must be hamming it up'.

I think the bigger issue is the amount people can claim for. I know of one case where a person received north of €50k for a minor, non-life changing, knee injury while on a business premises. Another got a similar sum for an extremely low speed crash in a car park. There needs to be an independent review of pay out amounts and some form of 'norm' set.

Ya know what stops a lot of claims against you? Not crashing into things.

Its not what you hit, its what hits you. I have zero interest in claiming off anyone who hits me if they are amicable and happy to pay for the repair. Plenty of crash for cash schemes here, check out the DVR thread. One member had one very recently. And the motivating factor is the cash pay day at the end. Would you bother claiming if you got €2k for whiplash as opposed to €20k? Thats what most people make in a year. Not bad for a day's work.

MarkAnthony

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There are none for the good reason that once a judge awards money to someone who is obviously on the scam, it would be very hard to write a newspaper article about it, calling it a scam. However, the level of payout definitely invites theft. Besides, the media in Ireland only want to write gushing articles over whoever sponsors their cheeserag, so any kind of investigative journalism (or serious journalism of any kind) is next to impossible here.
Coming back to the amount paid out, in Germany you might get somewhere between €500 and €2000, here you will get 10 times that. That amount of compensation practically invites theft. Especially since in other countries you will be jailed for fraud, while here it's "too bad, no payout today, better luck next time" and you are invited to go again. As many times as you like, you will get lucky next time.
In the UK the press is a lot more forward when it comes to writing about suspect claims, since a lot of the papers there are less afraid to speak out and the journalists are not on the payroll of the sponsor and their main job is not to dress their press releases up as "News".
Also, the vast majority of cases never reach court. because the insurers know the judges will award money away, it is nonsensical for insurers to even go to court. However, obtaining a payout without going to court is no less fraud. It's just easier fraud.

Check this out:
http://www.injuryclaimireland.ie/98-injury-claims-settled-court/
98% of claims are settled out of court. Does that mean that 98% of claims are genuine? Not in a million years. This neatly illustrates my point, pointless go to court, just throw some easy money at them, even if it's blatant. The problem is, there are no statistics about successful crimes anywhere in the world, otherwise they wouldn't be successful. The article makes for disturbing reading.

How much did the German legal system cost per person vs. the Irish legal system. Please limit your answer to civil cases.

The German courts are a full blown civil law system that is vastly more expensive to run with a Judge having a completely different job to an Irish Judge.

Judges in Ireland listen, impartially, to the cases put in front of them and award based on PIAB and the book of quantum. It's vastly cheaper to the individual to bring a case in Germany and vastly more expensive to the taxpayer as a whole. It's also much more of an inquisitorial system than the common law system which is adversarial.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that the XYZ system is better, and indeed many PhDs have been thusly built, but the fact is we're not a civil law country.

Lets not forget the instant case didn't even go to court!

SnakePlissken

ironclaw wrote: »

Would you bother claiming if you got €2k for whiplash as opposed to €20k? Thats what most people make in a year. Not bad for a day's work.

Are you really suggesting that everyone who makes a personal injury claim citing whiplash is a scammer? Whiplash can be an incredible debilitating condition that can cause pain and loss of movement years after the event and is certainly not "one days work". As for the purported German payout of 200 euro for such a claim, I find this incredible difficult to believe considering the potentially life long lasting discomfort such an injury can bring.

MarkAnthony

ironclaw wrote: »

I think the bigger issue is the amount people can claim for. I know of one case where a person received north of €50k for a minor, non-life changing, knee injury while on a business premises. Another got a similar sum for an extremely low speed crash in a car park. There needs to be an independent review of pay out amounts and some form of 'norm' set.

How was the award made up? What evidence was produced. The Judge won't pull these figures out of their arses. Why shouldn't someone who is off work for 6 months from a €100,000 a year job be awarded at least €50,000 in losy earnings alone.

ironclaw wrote: »

Its not what you hit, its what hits you. I have zero interest in claiming off anyone who hits me if they are amicable and happy to pay for the repair. Plenty of crash for cash schemes here, check out the DVR thread. One member had one very recently. And the motivating factor is the cash pay day at the end. Would you bother claiming if you got €2k for whiplash as opposed to €20k? Thats what most people make in a year. Not bad for a day's work.

So you're bemoaning the chancing nature of Irish society? I'm with you brother.

mansize

Euros coming up lads expect PI claims to skyrocket

dr.fuzzenstein

MarkAnthony wrote: »

How much did the German legal system cost per person vs. the Irish legal system. Please limit your answer to civil cases.

The German courts are a full blown civil law system that is vastly more expensive to run with a Judge having a completely different job to an Irish Judge.

Judges in Ireland listen, impartially, to the cases put in front of them and award based on PIAB and the book of quantum. It's vastly cheaper to the individual to bring a case in Germany and vastly more expensive to the taxpayer as a whole. It's also much more of an inquisitorial system than the common law system which is adversarial.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that the XYZ system is better, and indeed many PhDs have been thusly built, but the fact is we're not a civil law country.

Lets not forget the instant case didn't even go to court!

Let's look at these "impartial" payouts, shall we?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/boy-awarded-50-000-after-dishwasher-fire-led-to-nightmares-1.2471470

My dishwasher went on fire, i want 50k! here you go.

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/compensation-for-an-injury-caused-by-inadequate-training/

HALF A FCUKING MILL for a prolapsed disc. I should be a millionaire.

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/too-low-offer-of-compensation/

Cut on the leg? That'll be €30k please.

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/compensation-for-a-pallet-truck-accident/

€46k for falling over your own feet, sweet!

At the hearing, Judge Cross heard Castolin Eutectic argue that Daniel´s slip and fall injury was due to his own negligence.

it's your own fault, ya eejit! But you know what? Here's the money anyway.
What am I, some stupid cnut? I could be a multi millionaire by now!

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/compensation-for-a-slip-on-a-potato-wedge-in-dunnes/

Slipped on a potato wedge, yep, €23k.

I could post these all day. Evidence of stupid payouts INCLUDING ones where the judge finds the defendant was to blame and still got the money.
There you go, enjoy! And now tell me that all these claims are 100% above board, the poor diddums, jaysis don't they deserve a little something for their trouble, my heart bleeds for them. :rolleyes:

Oh what the hell, let's keep rollingL:

http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/irishcolumnists/aoifebannon/6093928/70000-award-to-br-garda-shows-we-br-need-to-cop-on.html

A gun being pulled at a cop? Surely that's never happened to any cop anywhere on Earth, only €70k can ease this man's terrible emotional suffering.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/row-with-bus-driver-over-euro50-note-traumatised-student-316133.html

If you have really, absolutely and POSITIVELY nothing to sue for, just sue the bus company for not accepting a €50 note. Now this one was settled out of court, but there is nowhere on EARTH this should even GET to court in the first place.

Eltoten

To Elland Back wrote: »

Seriously OP? You are angry about your insurer taking this course of action and you have withdrawn your co-operation. What exactly do you think they can defend your position with? When the 3rd party's solicitor finds this out, they will ride you sideways

BTW, failure to assist your insurers is a breech of your policy conditions and gives them the right to reclaim their outlay from you

Your insurers were not involved in the accident. You/the driver are the only people who can assist in deflecting this bogus claim

Firstly, I have not withdrawn my co-operatipon. So don't put words into my mouth.
Secondly, thank you, for giving me the answer I was looking for. It seems I am legally obliged to assist.
Thirdly, I was really upset but have since cooled down a bit. Although I am still angry at the court system here that allows this kind of carry on and for which all insured motorists end up paying. I also understand that the victim is entitled to some form of compensation for his troubles but 15K for an impact of the force that resembles a pet on the back is a little excessive.

MarkAnthony

I didn't say it was an impartial payout, the Judge will decide which party wins the case any payout according to the loss presented.

What's your alternative? Limit claims to a certain amount? Hows that fair when a surgeon with a history of incompetence kills your child?

It's alright winding yourself up, but you're missing a massive part of this process and simply grasping for a simple solution. There isn't one.

dr.fuzzenstein

Oh, I got a good one:

http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/compensation-settlements-for-an-suv-accident/

Rental car, parties knew each other, no damage recorded, multiple occupants in the vehicle that got hit, what can i say, this one's got it all:

Enterprise Rent-a-Car and MIBI contested the claim on the grounds that the circumstances of the accident did not stand up to scrutiny. The defendants alleged that Jeremiah O´Brien and William O´Reilly were known to each other, and that when the Gardai attended the scene of the accident, no property damage was recorded.

So far, so very dodgy. I will very carefully say nothing that Rathkeale gets mentioned several times in this article. Also, why MIBI? Someone didn't have insurance? Who? Why isn't this mentioned?

Judge Fergus also heard about the various injuries that had been sustained by Mary and her passengers, and that one of the passengers – Lisa O´Reilly had already settled her claim out of court. The judge awarded multiple compensation settlements for an SUV accident to Mary O´Reilly (€7,500), Caitriona McDonagh (€10,000) and Breda McCarthy (€12,000). William O´Reilly was also awarded €4,800 for the property damage to his SUV.

That is a cool €31300 payout, not bad for "no recorded property damage".
This has all the hallmarks, yet a fat, juicy payout.
Anyone wanna tell me that the innocent victims of this tragic accident will have to live with their injuries and trauma for the rest of their lives and the money paid out to them pales in comparison to the devastation and suffering endured by these poor, brave souls? No? Thought not.

And YES! Payouts should be limited!
Slash whiplash from €20k to €5k and make sure some serious medical proof is required. Actually, I am too nice. Compensation awards in ireland should have a 0 lobbed off the end and they would still be in the European average.

Eltoten

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Ya know what stops a lot of claims against you? Not crashing into things.

And bringing down compensations for injury etc and exercising more rigour in the evaluation of injury claims would bring down your insurance premium, too. Accidents happen and will continue to happen, you won't stop that with smart comments. But handing out fantastic sums for minor injuries is something that can be stopped easily, if there just was political will.

Eltoten

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I didn't say it was an impartial payout, the Judge will decide which party wins the case any payout according to the loss presented.

What's your alternative? Limit claims to a certain amount? Hows that fair when a surgeon with a history of incompetence kills your child?

It's alright winding yourself up, but you're missing a massive part of this process and simply grasping for a simple solution. There isn't one.

How about using reason? You know how much compensation Lufthansa offered to the victims when that plane crashed in France last year? 20K per dead body. The Irish compensations Board recommended 15k for a sore neck. How's that for disproportion?

Also, there is a catalogue of compensations in place in countries like Germany, 500 for minor whiplash, 12000 for a torn neck artery, 3000 for a broken femur and so on.

dr.fuzzenstein

Eltoten wrote: »

How about using reason? You know how much compensation Lufthansa offered to the victims when that plane crashed in France last year? 20K per dead body. The Irish compensations Board recommended 15k for a sore neck. How's that for disproportion?

Also, there is a catalogue of compensations in place in countries like Germany, 500 for minor whiplash, 12000 for a torn neck artery, 3000 for a broken femur and so on.

I simply don't know how anyone could suggest €15k for a sore neck is a fair payout and keep a straight face at the same time. There is not a single argument for it.

livingthedream

Hi,

I feel your pain, I had a similar incident a few years ago.

Wife was driving my car and really slowly rolled into the back of car in front of us while waiting at a junction. Car in front had male driver and female passenger in the back with a baby on her lap (no car seat).

Guy got out of car all upset (fair enough). Looked at the damage which was superficial so I said for him to get a quote for repair as it didn't look like much.

2 weeks later he gives me a call saying the quote was 3000 for repair of car :eek: and he said "It could have been worse, at least nobody was hurt".

So I said fine, I'll put it through my insurance as it was going to be substantial money to get the car repaired. Contacted my insurance company and gave them the details.

A while later insurance company contacts me to let me know that they are taking personal injury claims for back/neck injuries :eek:

Their written version of events tells of them both being sitting in the front with seat belts on and their baby in the back seat in a car seat when we crashed into them! Guy from insurance company confirmed that their legal representation would be considered to be of the ambulance chasing kind..

Despite my protestations as to the inaccuracies of their account the whole thing was settled about a year later for circa 90K iirc which was split roughly 50:50 between legal and personal injury claims. :mad:
I don't mind paying for damages/injuries if they are genuine, that's why I have insurance and after all we were at fault but.........

Fortunately I had my no claims protected so it had a very minor effect on my premiums though I was tied to the same insurer for a further 5 years.

Needless to say that nowadays I have a dashcam in my car.......

~LTD.

MarkAnthony

Eltoten wrote: »

How about using reason? You know how much compensation Lufthansa offered to the victims when that plane crashed in France last year? 20K per dead body. The Irish compensations Board recommended 15k for a sore neck. How's that for disproportion?

Also, there is a catalogue of compensations in place in countries like Germany, 500 for minor whiplash, 12000 for a torn neck artery, 3000 for a broken femur and so on.

There is here too, as well as a total lack of understanding it seems.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I simply don't know how anyone could suggest €15k for a sore neck is a fair payout and keep a straight face at the same time. There is not a single argument for it.

€20K per body is though?

dr.fuzzenstein

MarkAnthony wrote: »

There is here too, as well as a total lack of understanding it seems.



€20K per body is though?

I don't know, no one ever offered me €20k for my body...
As for the catalog, yes there is, but every payout should have a zero removed at the end.

Eltoten

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Oh, I got a good one:

That is a cool €31300 payout, not bad for "no recorded property damage".
This has all the hallmarks, yet a fat, juicy payout.
Anyone wanna tell me that the innocent victims of this tragic accident will have to live with their injuries and trauma for the rest of their lives and the money paid out to them pales in comparison to the devastation and suffering endured by these poor, brave souls? No? Thought not.

And YES! Payouts should be limited!
Slash whiplash from €20k to €5k and make sure some serious medical proof is required. Actually, I am too nice. Compensation awards in ireland should have a 0 lobbed off the end and they would still be in the European average.

If you love these, you're going to love this: google: whiplash claims help. I can't post the link because I'm a new user but you'll find a link to a website of that name by for solicitors that advertise with these kinds of cases. It's simple appeal to greed and it is what drives this whole comp business.

To Elland Back

Eltoten wrote: »

Firstly, I have not withdrawn my co-operatipon. So don't put words into my mouth.
Secondly, thank you, for giving me the answer I was looking for. It seems I am legally obliged to assist.
.

Firstly, in your opening post you said "The insurer's solicitor is frequently contacting us regarding the other claim but as of now, I have no desire to comply anymore." , so you did say you were to withdraw your cooperation

Secondly, I never said you were legally obliged to assist, you are contractually obliged to assist

Eltoten

To Elland Back wrote: »

Firstly, in your opening post you said "The insurer's solicitor is frequently contacting us regarding the other claim but as of now, I have no desire to comply anymore." , so you did say you were to withdraw your cooperation

Secondly, I never said you were legally obliged to assist, you are contractually obliged to assist

I also wrote: "Would there be any repercussions for me if I stop corresponding with my insurance company over this case?" - which clearly indicates that I was considering and no have acted yet.

In short, I have no desire but I am obliged.

Anyway, my question has been discussed at length and answered sufficiently.

Thank you all for your input. Much appreciated.

dr.fuzzenstein

Well OP, good luck with that, we would all like to see scamsters like that nailed, but we're not optimistic.
But if you anyhow can contribute to this guy not getting any money or getting even one cent less, do it!

hoodie6029

MarkAnthony wrote: »

There is here too, as well as a total lack of understanding it seems.



€20K per body is though?

Unfortunately its much cheaper to kill someone than it is to maim them. If you're alive with injuries you have to be provided for. But if you're dead apart some limited loss of earnings for your survivors there is very little need or incentive for a big pay out.

Uncle Ben

robarmstrong wrote: »

Your insurance company as well is kinda acting the maggot. I had an incident a while back where someone rolled into the front of my car. This person had no witnesses, I had 4 all submit statements that the third party rolled into the front of my car. I got out, took a look around the cars, no damage to either one.

I didn't call the Gardai but I informed my insurance company right away. Despite me having 4 witnesses, her having none, an assessor come out to both cars and say there was no point of impact (meaning it must have been minimal) my insurance company said I was at fault and the claim is still open.

She's claiming for severe whiplash and damages to her car which have already been deemed not related to my actual impact... So why is her claim against me still open?!

Similar thing happened to me in a garage almost 20 years ago. The gardai came out and checked that both sides had insurance, which we both had, but they never got involved as it happened on private property. Despite a witness plus the cctv from the garage pmpa found it easier to ignore same and pay the other party who was also with pmpa.

You can't win with insurance companies.