Unfair claim settlement after minor accident

Eltoten

Hi,

a good while ago my partner, who is insured underway policy was involved in a minor crash. She literally dinged into van as she pulled out of her work place's drive way.
Initially we could agree on an outside insurance settlement with the driver but a few weeks later the cheque we gave him over a minor sum that he accepted was returned by his solicitor was the announcement that the driver, along with his daughter were going the full monty on this, personal injury and all.

Everybody involve, including the garda who recorded the accident are sure that these claims are utter BS and, in fact, our insurer is contesting the daughter's claims. Not so, as of today, the driver's ones. They are going to hand out 15k to him in settlement. I am fuming about this and I'm basically done with my insurance company. I feel misrepresented and will have to pick up the tab through loss of my no-claims bonus. The insurer's solicitor is frequently contacting us regarding the other claim but as of now, I have no desire to comply anymore. In fact, I'd love to see the insurer pay through their nose and fail the court case miserably. That's how angry I am and in fact, I envy the claimants for their balls to get away with this kind of ****, while I wouldn't dare to make such false claims. Indeed, I'd love to be rewarded 15k or more just for fun. So, I'm happy for the injured party to line their pockets, and I'm happy to see my insurer cash it all out.

Needless to say, I'll be switching insurance soon as I can.

However, I wonder if I am legally obliged to comply with my insurance company. Would there be any repercussions for me if I stop corresponding with my insurance company over this case? Would my premium go up if they lost the second case?

Barr

Afraid you are stuck with your current Insurer with an open claim.

gctest50

Eltoten wrote: »

..... I am fuming about this and I'm basically done with my insurance company.

Needless to say, I'll be switching insurance soon as I can.
.....

Very important, before you do anything else :

Phone another insurance company and (say) tell them 6 months ago your partner crashed into a van and there was injuries and it was settled and they paid etc

Ask the "new" company for a quote

Prisoner6409

Welcome to the Insurance industry snd why insurance is generally soooo expensive but I suspect they would claim it is less costly to pay out than to fight the case although thid does nothing to deter bogus claims. Take a look at medical insurance, none of the bills sent in from the hodpitals checked wirh the insured person, just paid. The worst of it is when a claim is made there is no chance another insurer will touch you for at least a year or if they do will add a huge hike.

Eltoten wrote: »

Hi,

a good while ago my partner, who is insured underway policy was involved in a minor crash. She literally dinged into van as she pulled out of her work place's drive way.
Initially we could agree on an outside insurance settlement with the driver but a few weeks later the cheque we gave him over a minor sum that he accepted was returned by his solicitor was the announcement that the driver, along with his daughter were going the full monty on this, personal injury and all.

Everybody involve, including the garda who recorded the accident are sure that these claims are utter BS and, in fact, our insurer is contesting the daughter's claims. Not so, as of today, the driver's ones. They are going to hand out 15k to him in settlement. I am fuming about this and I'm basically done with my insurance company. I feel misrepresented and will have to pick up the tab through loss of my no-claims bonus. The insurer's solicitor is frequently contacting us regarding the other claim but as of now, I have no desire to comply anymore. In fact, I'd love to see the insurer pay through their nose and fail the court case miserably. That's how angry I am and in fact, I envy the claimants for their balls to get away with this kind of ****, while I wouldn't dare to make such false claims. Indeed, I'd love to be rewarded 15k or more just for fun. So, I'm happy for the injured party to line their pockets, and I'm happy to see my insurer cash it all out.

Needless to say, I'll be switching insurance soon as I can.

However, I wonder if I am legally obliged to comply with my insurance company. Would there be any repercussions for me if I stop corresponding with my insurance company over this case? Would my premium go up if they lost the second case?

Eltoten

Barr wrote: »

Afraid you are stuck with your current Insurer with an open claim.

Unfortunately. I am not worried about that. I'm worried about the repercussions if I don't comply with my insurer anymore.

Toyotafanboi

this might be kind of pedantic, but i'd try (if there is even a way) to look into the "van" aspect of this. was it a work van the man was driving and if so was it insured solely for business of for private use too? i'd assume if his daughter was in the van, it wasn't being used for work unless she is an employee. but maybe this is why they dropped the daughters claim anyway. you mightn't get anywhere, but if you are looking to give him a fright, there might be something in it.

Eltoten

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

this might be kind of pedantic, but i'd try (if there is even a way) to look into the "van" aspect of this. was it a work van the man was driving and if so was it insured solely for business of for private use too? i'd assume if his daughter was in the van, it wasn't being used for work unless she is an employee. but maybe this is why they dropped the daughters claim anyway. you mightn't get anywhere, but if you are looking to give him a fright, there might be something in it.

Na, it was a privately owned van.

Barr

Do you know why they are paying one party and are choosing to defend the other - seems a bit odd to say the least.

RainyDay

Eltoten wrote: »

Unfortunately. I am not worried about that. I'm worried about the repercussions if I don't comply with my insurer anymore.

One possible repercussion is that your current insurer refuses to insure you when your current policy expires, and other insurers refuse to take you on with an open claim on your record.

I know these situations are frustrating, but insurance companies don't generally hand out large amounts of money unless they reckon that they would lose a court case.

Eltoten

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

this might be kind of pedantic, but i'd try (if there is even a way) to look into the "van" aspect of this. was it a work van the man was driving and if so was it insured solely for business of for private use too? i'd assume if his daughter was in the van, it wasn't being used for work unless she is an employee. but maybe this is why they dropped the daughters claim anyway. you mightn't get anywhere, but if you are looking to give him a fright, there might be something in it.

Barr wrote: »

Do you know why they are paying one party and are choosing to defend the other - seems a bit odd to say the least.

It's beyond me. What I got from my insurer is that these are two different cases and are evaluated as such. I guess, the odds were different.

ironclaw

RainyDay wrote: »

insurance companies don't generally hand out large amounts of money unless they reckon that they would lose a court case.

You'd spend 15k on court fee's in about a day. Its always cheaper to settle. That's the problem. Ireland needs an independent court system for minor motor and injury claims, that's fast and efficient with settlements made by trained arbitrators and assessors. Sore neck? Here is your medical costs and a little for the inconvenience, not 'here's a pile of money so you never have to work again'

Eltoten

RainyDay wrote: »

I know these situations are frustrating, but insurance companies don't generally hand out large amounts of money unless they reckon that they would lose a court case.

Yes, that's what they also told me. I know, I'm stuck with them and I also know that without them, I'd have to face all the costs myself and end up paying much more than an increased premium. It's just so frustrating to see how easy it is to get away with bogus claims here. It's not even the insurers who are at fault, I suppose, it's the court system and the judges who don't seem to be able to crack down on these kind of crimes. In fact, they are the enablers.

the_sonandmoon

ironclaw wrote: »

You'd spend 15k on court fee's in about a day. Its always cheaper to settle. That's the problem. Ireland needs an independent court system for minor motor and injury claims, that's fast and efficient with settlements made by trained arbitrators and assessors. Sore neck? Here is your medical costs and a little for the inconvenience, not 'here's a pile of money so you never have to work again'

Thats the idea behind PIAB, introduced a few years ago - not just for motor claims though, but all sorts of personal injuries. It hasn't been taken up all that well though, because it is seen that judges award rates, and cases are settled, for more than the value of what PIAB offers

Barr

Eltoten wrote: »

Yes, that's what they also told me. I know, I'm stuck with them and I also know that without them, I'd have to face all the costs myself and end up paying much more than an increased premium. It's just so frustrating to see how easy it is to get away with bogus claims here. It's not even the insurers who are at fault, I suppose, it's the court system and the judges who don't seem to be able to crack down on these kind of crimes. In fact, they are the enablers.

I know you are frustrated but the fact your insurer is contesting the daughters claim is a positive thing.

They must believe there is something bogus happening.

If I were you , I would co-operate fully and at the very least don’t give the other party an easy ride.

If they can’t defend the case then she will be paid as well.

Eltoten

ironclaw wrote: »

You'd spend 15k on court fee's in about a day. Its always cheaper to settle. That's the problem. Ireland needs an independent court system for minor motor and injury claims, that's fast and efficient with settlements made by trained arbitrators and assessors. Sore neck? Here is your medical costs and a little for the inconvenience, not 'here's a pile of money so you never have to work again'

It's insane. In other countries, Germany for instance, in jury claims are scrutinised much more and compensations paid out for this type of injury are usually in the low hundreds. For some reason, the Irish legislator is unwilling to proactively put an end to this type of claim culture. As a result, people whose premiums go up because of high and unjustified claims will do the same, if they become victims of a crash. I'll probably be one of them now. Although I'd feel bad about it, I'd simply do it out of spite.

Eltoten

Barr wrote: »

I know you are frustrated but the fact your insurer is contesting the daughters claim is a positive thing.

They must believe there is something bogus happening.

If I were you , I would co-operate fully and at the very least don’t give the other party an easy ride.

If they can’t defend the case then she will be paid as well.

They know it's all bogus. That's what the insurance rep told me on the phone. The only reason they are not contesting the driver's claim is, that their chances of succeeding are quite low. It's clearly the judges who are at fault for being too soft.

All I can hope for is, that if the daughter looses and has no legal insurance, much of the 15k may go into paying legal costs.

robarmstrong

gctest50 wrote: »

Very important, before you do anything else :

Phone another insurance company and (say) tell them 6 months ago your partner crashed into a van and there was injuries and it was settled and they paid etc

Ask the "new" company for a quote

Won't OP get done for that? Something along the lines of failing to fully disclose etc?

Eltoten

the_sonandmoon wrote: »

Thats the idea behind PIAB, introduced a few years ago - not just for motor claims though, but all sorts of personal injuries. It hasn't been taken up all that well though, because it is seen that judges award rates, and cases are settled, for more than the value of what PIAB offers

The 15k rewarded to the driver is based on the PIAB assessment. It seems that this board is not worth it's money. They can't tell their own arses from a hole in the ground.

robarmstrong

Eltoten wrote: »

The 15k rewarded to the driver is based on the PIAB assessment. It seems that this board is not worth it's money. They can't tell their own arses from a hole in the ground.

Your insurance company as well is kinda acting the maggot. I had an incident a while back where someone rolled into the front of my car. This person had no witnesses, I had 4 all submit statements that the third party rolled into the front of my car. I got out, took a look around the cars, no damage to either one.

I didn't call the Gardai but I informed my insurance company right away. Despite me having 4 witnesses, her having none, an assessor come out to both cars and say there was no point of impact (meaning it must have been minimal) my insurance company said I was at fault and the claim is still open.

She's claiming for severe whiplash and damages to her car which have already been deemed not related to my actual impact... So why is her claim against me still open?!

Eltoten

robarmstrong wrote: »

Won't OP get done for that? Something along the lines of failing to fully disclose etc?

I wouldn't do that anyway. The increased premium is an inconvenience and certainly not worth the risk.

gctest50

robarmstrong wrote: »

Won't OP get done for that? Something along the lines of failing to fully disclose etc?

sorry I meant to finish it off :


tell the "new" insurance company you had an accident six months ago - see how much extra they ask for


It's just to get an idea of what you'd be heading into
.

dr.fuzzenstein

Eltoten wrote: »

Yes, that's what they also told me. I know, I'm stuck with them and I also know that without them, I'd have to face all the costs myself and end up paying much more than an increased premium. It's just so frustrating to see how easy it is to get away with bogus claims here. It's not even the insurers who are at fault, I suppose, it's the court system and the judges who don't seem to be able to crack down on these kind of crimes. In fact, they are the enablers.

It's theft, pure and simple.. I don't know what else you could call faking an injury in order to get money. But it's not all the fault of the greedy scam artist who smells money, this goes far beyond that.
I cannot for the life of me figure out how and why the judges facilitate this scam. The only possible explanation would be that the judges are in on this and are getting a percentage of the payouts, that's why they are so stupidly high. So that must mean the judges get a brown envelope from the prosecuting solicitor, because ambulance chasing is a nice, lucrative business and as with any kind of dodgy racket, you have to grease the wheels to keep the machinery going.
So this has to be a scam involving backhanders from "no win, no fee" solicitors to the judges, with a few pennies set aside for the political establishment to turn a blind eye to this scam. That would be the reason the insurance companies are not contesting cases, they know that despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, a crooked judge will ALWAYS find against them.

RainyDay

ironclaw wrote: »

You'd spend 15k on court fee's in about a day. '

It won't cost you a penny if you win your case. The other guy will pay. If the insurance company was confident of winning the case, they would contest it.

Eltoten wrote: »

The 15k rewarded to the driver is based on the PIAB assessment. It seems that this board is not worth it's money. They can't tell their own arses from a hole in the ground.

The PIAB only get involved where liability is not contested.

ironclaw

RainyDay wrote: »

It won't cost you a penny if you win your case. The other guy will pay. If the insurance company was confident of winning the case, they would contest it./QUOTE]

But do you A) Involve a few members of staff and legal council for a number of weeks, pay them and then maybe recoup the cost if you win? or Write a cheque for €15k and have a cup of tea? Seems to me that insurance companies do the latter and it makes perfect financial sense.

I'd be interested to speak to someone far better versed than myself but surely their must be a bubble forming here. You pay out larger and larger sums each year, a culture develops and some serial offenders are occasionally caught. However costs also rise. You then lamp these increases of both claims and costs onto the customer, at some point it must break whereby the customer can no longer afford and the claim payouts become uneconomical to continue business. That said, isn't insurance State guaranteed via the pool they all pay into to avoid anyone going belly up? So is it just a case of vested interest and the knowledge that people have to, via the statues, have valid insurance. Sounds like a perfect market place really.

Caliden

Ireland and the UK are the whiplash capitals of Europe. The reason is that very little evidence is needed to prove whiplash whereas in France and Germany have rigorous medical tests. Sweden even has a time limit of 72 hours for symptoms.


At the moment it's just far far too easy to claim whiplash and get a payout because of soft judges awarding massive settlements.


From this article: "Whiplash now accounts for 78pc of all personal injury claims in the UK compared with just 3pc in France....... The result of far fewer claims is that motor insurance costs 40pc less."

Source

gctest50

RainyDay wrote: »

It won't cost you a penny if you win your case. The other guy will pay. If the insurance company was confident of winning the case, they would contest it............

It's not "your case" though, it's the insurance companies one

dr.fuzzenstein

Caliden wrote: »

Ireland and the UK are the whiplash capitals of Europe. The reason is that very little evidence is needed to prove whiplash whereas in France and Germany have rigorous medical tests. Sweden even has a time limit of 72 hours for symptoms.


At the moment it's just far far too easy to claim whiplash and get a payout because of soft judges awarding massive settlements.


From this article: "Whiplash now accounts for 78pc of all personal injury claims in the UK compared with just 3pc in France....... The result of far fewer claims is that motor insurance costs 40pc less."

Source

Because ambulance chasing and claims farming has reached utterly gigantic propartions in the UK, they simply decided to do away with cahs rewards for sore necks:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/autumn-statement/12017199/Autumn-Statement-2015-End-of-the-road-for-dodgy-whiplash-claims.html

This will HAVE to come in here.

coylemj

RainyDay wrote: »

It won't cost you a penny if you win your case. The other guy will pay. If the insurance company was confident of winning the case, they would contest it.

As has been pointed out, it's not the OP's case, it's his insurance company's case and even if they contest the case and win, the likelihood is that they will not be able to recoup their costs from the other guy so they (the OP's insurance company) will probably have to pay their legal team whether they win or lose.

So their choices are (1) give the guy 15K to p1ss off (2) contest the case, win and end up paying their own lawyers fees - 15K (3) contest the case, lose and pay the other guy 15K for his 'injuries', pay their own lawyers 15K and the same to his lawyers - 45K in total.

I can see why insurance companies settle but if the ambulance chasers thought that they'd get short shrift from the judges with these frivolous whiplash claims, this wouldn't be happening. It's the fear of what will happen in court that deters insurance companies from contesting the cases. Judges need to wise up to this blatant scam.

dr.fuzzenstein

^^^^
I would suggest that judges should be smart enough to know that when 5 people had an "accident" at 5 km/h involving their cousin who "happened" to be in the other can and they're all claiming €20k each for whiplash, this is more than a bit dodgy and that the medical reports came from Dr. Nick, but they chose to ignore the facts and just award damages anyway.
Why on earth would a judge do that? To award money to blatant scammers, one would have to assume that judges are aware of the fact and to award stupid money for superficial and mostly fictitious injuries, the only possible motive for the judges has to he financial.
I'm saying judges are bought by ambulance chasers to award massive amounts of money to blatant scammers. There is absolutely no other explanation for what's going on in Ireland.

edit:
I know I'm repeating myself, but if stuff like this is legit, I will eat my house.

To Elland Back

Seriously OP? You are angry about your insurer taking this course of action and you have withdrawn your co-operation. What exactly do you think they can defend your position with? When the 3rd party's solicitor finds this out, they will ride you sideways

BTW, failure to assist your insurers is a breech of your policy conditions and gives them the right to reclaim their outlay from you

Your insurers were not involved in the accident. You/the driver are the only people who can assist in deflecting this bogus claim

RainyDay

gctest50 wrote: »

It's not "your case" though, it's the insurance companies one

coylemj wrote: »

As has been pointed out, it's not the OP's case, it's his insurance company's case and even if they contest the case and win, the likelihood is that they will not be able to recoup their costs from the other guy so they (the OP's insurance company) will probably have to pay their legal team whether they win or lose.

So their choices are (1) give the guy 15K to p1ss off (2) contest the case, win and end up paying their own lawyers fees - 15K (3) contest the case, lose and pay the other guy 15K for his 'injuries', pay their own lawyers 15K and the same to his lawyers - 45K in total.

Please don't be pedantic. I was speaking from the insurance company's point of view. From their point of view, they can seek 'security for costs', so the other side has to put up a bond for costs before the case can proceed. If the others lose, they pay the costs.

ironclaw wrote: »

But do you A) Involve a few members of staff and legal council for a number of weeks, pay them and then maybe recoup the cost if you win? or Write a cheque for €15k and have a cup of tea? Seems to me that insurance companies do the latter and it makes perfect financial sense.

If (like just about every other business in the world) the insurance claims guy is measured, incentivised and bonused based on how little cash he loses, it makes perfect sense for them to fight the case if they have reasonable confidence that they will win. Paying out money is generally bad for any business, and they tend to avoid it when they can.