Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

2forjoy · 02-01-2016 08:29PM

Dassey was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 40 years.

Rayne Wooney · 02-01-2016 08:32PM

He might have done it but it's ridiculous he was convicted, really corrupt police in that place. How could he have shot her multiple times in the garage and then cleaned it better than a forensic team could? And then left the car in his own backyard?

I don't think they had a case at all, they won it by removing the presumption of innocence before the trial began

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 08:32PM

2forjoy wrote: »

Dassey was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 40 years.

If that's in relation to the "accomplice" thing we were talking about the friend he was with when Avery burned the cat.

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 08:39PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Sure you can imagine it. It's not something normal people do but there's some people who are still capable of doing it. Just as Avery was at the age of 20.

Avery was convicted and sentenced to 6 years in prison at the age of 23 for running his cousin off the road and trying to force her at gun point into his car. The fact he was exonerated of the rape doesn't mean he went to prison for something he didn't do. Only that he served a longer sentence than he otherwise would have.

I get what ya mean but it's not a straightforward case of innocent man goes down for something he didn't do. The police should be held to account for their incompetence but it's irrelevant when it comes to Avery's crimes he was actually guilty of.

I don't know who his accomplice was. But I'd be happy to say if he was an adult burning cats alive for a laugh he wasn't right in the head.

Why did he run her off the road? She was telling people he was having sex on his front yard with his partner. She was Insinuating he was doing things he said be wasn't.

If someone said that about me, I'd be raging, especially if I suspected people looked down on me already

He admitted he did it and said he wanted to make her stop with the lies. Not the brightest move, but he isn't the brightest man we all know that.

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 08:43PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

What has his IQ got to do with it ? He's absolved of committing horrific criminal acts because hes not very bright ? He's not mentally impaired, hes just a bit dumb and has a disturbing tendency towards violence. He's still 100% accountable for his actions.

He was not absolved of any crime. I'm explaining why at 20 he may have acted like a stupid kid showing off and doing something cruel for a laugh.

You don't know he is a psychopath. No one does.

I'm curious, if someone murders someone are they are psychopath, or is it animal cruelty that makes someone one?

Slogger Jogger · 02-01-2016 08:47PM

A riveting documentary. Lots of gaps to my mind that didn't get explored.
If you haven't finished the series look away now...

- the phone messages missing from the unfortunate girls phone. Must be a way to find out what was done. Data once deleted still resides somewhere.
- how the nephew was interviewed time and time again without support.
- why the defence didn't bring as a witness a child psychologist or some expert to discuss the nephew. Given the right circumstances, as we saw, he was going to admit anything. His evidence shouldn't have been allowed. That evidence prejudiced both cases.
- how in the name of god, the evidence of the drawings where allowed when the defence investigator told him to draw this, draw that. It wasn't a case of draw what you saw, but he told him what to draw.
- where was the blood. No blood anywhere. They took jackhammers to the garage to no avail.
- what evidence is needed on appeal to overturn a judgement in Wisconsin! Unbelievable.
- in addition, the way the judge summarised the case to charge the jury was very odd to me. He referred to Avery's many crimes and the escalating nature of same. The main crime to date was removed from his record so the judge, to me, very much led the jury. When the same judge appeared later in the Appeal case that was odd too. Do they have other judges there?

2forjoy · 02-01-2016 08:48PM

You can sign the petition to have them pardoned here :

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/investgate-and-pardon-averys-wisconsin-and-punish-corrupt-officials-who-railroaded-these-innocent-men

After signing just go to your email and confirm signature

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 08:50PM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Why did he run her off the road? She was telling people he was having sex on his front yard with his partner. She was Insinuating he was doing things he said be wasn't.

If someone said that about me, I'd be raging, especially if I suspected people looked down on me already

He admitted he did it and said he wanted to make her stop with the lies. Not the brightest move, but he isn't the brightest man we all know that.

You can't seriously be trying to justify what he did ?? Running a woman with a child in the back of the car off the road and holding a gun to her head trying to force her into his vehicle.

Jesus.

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 08:50PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

That's when it's done as a kid. When you do it at 20 years old it doesn't mean you may turn into a psychopath it means you are a psychopath. Normal adults don't do things like that.

Diagnosing someone as a pychopath is a little more complex than citing torturing an animal at the age of 20.

The link below gives more accurate diagnostic criteria.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindmelding/201301/what-is-psychopath-0

Elmo · 02-01-2016 08:52PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Sure you can imagine it. It's not something normal people do but there's some people who are still capable of doing it. Just as Avery was at the age of 20.

No there are reason for not imagining a some one over the age of 25 doing this. Firstly their is maturity, at 20 your not all that mature and your hanging around with alot of other immature 20 year olds. This leads to doing stupid things when you are young. Including being egged on by your peers into doing things you might not normally do.

After 25 generally you have a change, its not necessarily maturity but it a case of finding new friends, moving out of home, finding proper relationship, maybe having children and so on.

I agree his immaturity, his peers and perhaps his IQ are not totally responsibly for his actions, he clearly knows right from wrong, but they all go some way to showing his character at 20. And he did serve time for burning the cat.

Avery was convicted and sentenced to 6 years in prison at the age of 23 for running his cousin off the road and trying to force her at gun point into his car.

We know that he also served 6 years for the running down of his cousin at 23, IMO there is a lot more to that, including a running dislike of his cousin and hers of him. That is not to say that he didn't get what he deserved, he did.

The fact he was exonerated of the rape doesn't mean he went to prison for something he didn't do. Only that he served a longer sentence than he otherwise would have.

He served 12 years for attack/rape in 1985 from 1991, following his consecutive sentence for 6 years. He went to prison for something he didn't do.

The police should be held to account for their incompetence but it's irrelevant when it comes to Avery's crimes he was actually guilty of.

The police and law enforcement agencies should be held accountable for all wrong doings and their past just like Avery's past need to be examined. In relation to the Halbach murder the police did everything the could to have a shut tight case against Avery.

If Avery did commit this murder and he is released, it will because of the incompetence of the police and law enforcement agencies. And to date I don't think any have seen their careers destroyed by their immaturity and bias against Avery.

northgirl · 02-01-2016 08:54PM

Watching Episode 3, it's heartbreaking watching Brendan being questioned..

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 09:17PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

You can't seriously be trying to justify what he did ?? Running a woman with a child in the back of the car off the road and holding a gun to her head trying to force her into his vehicle.

Jesus.

I am saying she was trying to ruin him. His reaction was totally wrong, but he was angry and probably sick of the malicious lies.

So yeah, I can understand his fury and anger. Shouldn't have happened, but I understand it. People out there all had guns, having that on him would not have been strange.

alane20 · 02-01-2016 09:31PM

So many times along the way I almost forgot it was real life, on what we saw how he was found guilty ill never understand, the one jourer that was excused for a family emergency stated that the was 2-3 people in the jury who he felt had their mind made up from day one and we're very forceful in that opinion, without sounding like a member of the tin foil hat brigade is it possible that certain people were placed on the jury and it was their job to convert the rest to a guilty verdict,

marklazarcovic · 02-01-2016 09:36PM

he was on trial for ms halbachs murder,rape,dismemberment,false imprisonment .... nothing else,his past was not on trial..

he was not a nice guy,thats obvious,the rest is not obvious at all

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 09:37PM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I am saying she was trying to ruin him. His reaction was totally wrong, but he was angry and probably sick of the malicious lies.

So yeah, I can understand his fury and anger. Shouldn't have happened, but I understand it. People out there all had guns, having that on him would not have been strange.

I just find it odd how you're so understanding of violent criminal behaviour when it comes to Avery to the point of sympathising with him and justifying it as if hes a child that doesn't know any better. Yet casting aspersions on other family members because of their odd behaviour and past actions and very quick to denounce the police as corrupt and despicable over an alleged frame there is virtually no evidence for.

Also Starring LeVar Burton · 02-01-2016 09:45PM

Have only seen about half of these myself, but seems to be a pretty good list of recommendations for similar documentaries...

http://www.techinsider.io/best-true-crime-documentaries-to-watch-2015-12

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 10:04PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

I just find it odd how you're so understanding of violent criminal behaviour when it comes to Avery to the point of sympathising with him and justifying it as if hes a child that doesn't know any better. Yet casting aspersions on other family members because of their odd behaviour and past actions and very quick to denounce the police as corrupt and despicable over an alleged frame there is virtually no evidence for.

I don't believe he did it. I believe he had too much to lose and I think he was framed, I've made that clear.

Sympathetic? I said maybe he is a psychopath but we don't know unless he undergoes formal psychological testing. You are saying he is a psychopath, I am saying that is not fact.

I said his reaction to someone claiming he was a sexual deviant around town was wrong, but given the nature of the lies, I understand it.

I think it may have been Scott that did it. We are entitled to question things. I have explained why I think he is dodgy and should have been considered a suspect. He lied about the timeline. He has no alibi but the guy he alibies, the scratches - from a puppy and on the back? Maybe but unusual. It would have been logical that someone that works with skin wounds could have clarified that but that didn't happen.

Do you not think the police were corrupt?

adox · 02-01-2016 10:09PM

2forjoy wrote: »

You can sign the petition to have them pardoned here :

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/investgate-and-pardon-averys-wisconsin-and-punish-corrupt-officials-who-railroaded-these-innocent-men

After signing just go to your email and confirm signature

Wow I would never sign a petition to pardon a man convicted of murder based on a documentary.

Elmo · 02-01-2016 11:16PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

I just find it odd how you're so understanding of violent criminal behaviour when it comes to Avery to the point of sympathising with him and justifying it as if hes a child that doesn't know any better. Yet casting aspersions on other family members because of their odd behaviour and past actions and very quick to denounce the police as corrupt and despicable over an alleged frame there is virtually no evidence for.

I think there are two sides to this: -

In my OP on this thread I think I stated that the Avery's had become town pariahs and many towns have these types of people. The are in and out of trouble with the police and even if there is one good person in the family they are all marred by past deeds of others, where their only connection is though family.

I don't think anyone is justifying Steven Avery's past crimes but I think what we are trying to say is that no matter what Steve did he was a pariah, his circumstance and his metal abilities and the towns/counties view of the Averys is a major part of the story. He/They might not be nice but they deserve to be consider Innocent.

Do I think Steve is a shinning light? no I don't but I do believe he was bullied.

On the other side I find it difficult to stand with Pillar of Society who clearly are not pillars, and who are just as bad as Steven, they just happen to be a little more intelligent. I think the evidence given is certainly very sketchy, and that is the problem the prosecution had. Though there are certainly questions that are muddy by the way in which the case was presented in the Documentary.

I don't understand why the Police insisted on the attack, rape, murder and kidnapping took place in Steve Avery's kitchen, bedroom and garage. As there is no conclusive evidence to back that theory up. As I said before the Avery's are not the tidiest, even with bleach I don't believe the could have cover up such an atrocity in a small ill-kept house and garage. The only evidence is the bloodied bullet which fell beneath some equipment and yet no other dry blood is found in that area.

The key is not evidence IMO, it is tainted, none of her DNA existed on it. Why did it take so long to find?

Why if someone was murder would you start to bring up the idea that she was also raped? As far as I know there is no evidence that she was raped. Other than Brendan Dassey eye-witness testimony which was given to him largely by the police. Though the evidence given by his cousin was strange IMO but again why in the house and the garage.

I don't trust Scott Tadych testimony, and what's his past like?

Len Kachinsky and his private detective both were clearly bias. What trouble had Brendan Dassey been in before? Was he partaking in incest? was he the devil incarnate? As suggested by his private detective.

strandroad · 02-01-2016 11:26PM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I am saying she was trying to ruin him. His reaction was totally wrong, but he was angry and probably sick of the malicious lies.

How do you know it was all lies, and malicious lies at that? Because he said so?
And how do you "ruin" someone with sleazy gossip if they had criminal convictions and allegations against them already, so any such rumours are small change?

I find your emotional defence and the willingness to excuse any of his multiple transgressions quite bizarre. He may be a victim of wrongful conviction but on the strength of his own deeds he is certainly a nasty individual even if Teresa Halbach was alive and well today.

Elmo · 02-01-2016 11:33PM

mhge wrote: »

How do you know it was all lies, and malicious lies at that? Because he said so?
And how do you "ruin" someone with sleazy gossip if they had criminal convictions and allegations against them already, so any such rumours are small change?

I find your emotional defence and the willingness to excuse any of his multiple transgressions quite bizarre. He may be a victim of wrongful conviction but on the strength of his own deeds he is certainly a nasty individual even if Teresa Halbach was alive and well today.

You ruin someone by putting them in prison for 12 years for something they didn't do. I find it bizarre people willingness to defend Law Enforcement Officers purely down to the fact that they are supposed to be good law biding citizens.

What criminal convictions did he have pending?

1. Robbery
2. Animal Mutilation
3. Fire Arm
4. Cousins attack
5. Later DUIs?????

bridgettedon · 02-01-2016 11:38PM

Elmo wrote: »

The bullet was used on her at some stage. And planted in the garage. If the bullet was actually found under something in the garage then there would have been blood surrounding it on the ground on the wall, on the under neat of what is was found under. Even if the garage had been moped that day to clean up blood, as pointed out its hard to remove evidence and I don't think the Avery's would have been capable.

I don't know if he did it or not. Or any of the Avery Family.

I think the police did a bad job, because the desperately want Stephen on something. If they were more honest it might have been different.

Ok I see what you mean about the bullet.

I came across the info about brendan trousers online. But to be honest it's hard to tell what is evidence and what is not.

With regards to Colburn and the registration of the car. It could be that he illegally entered the Avery property and came across it. But it's hard to know. He looked very nervous on the stand especially for a police officer. But that doesn't mean much at the same time.

The police did do a bad job. If the local county police had stayed away like they were meant to then it would have been fairer.

Again with Brendan why did he mention that he raped her. Does anyone have a transcript of these conversations. It's such a strange to say. The Avery Family also didn't help the case much. Why did Scott say he saw flames ten feet high while he was on the stand but his statement said three feet high. Also Bobby's evidence was shown to be false as verified by the bus driver. I do think it was someone on the Avery Family who committed this murder. Both Bobby and Scott did not have alibis for that night. Why weren't they questioned.

strandroad · 02-01-2016 11:41PM

Elmo wrote: »

You ruin someone by putting them in prison for 12 years for something they didn't do. I find it bizarre people willingness to defend Law Enforcement Officers purely down to the fact that they are supposed to be good law biding citizens.

I am not defending the police/prosecution, I am responding to claims that his criminal actions against his cousin could be justified by his fear that she was going to "ruin him" with gossip.

daisybelle2008 · 02-01-2016 11:50PM

Also Starring LeVar Burton wrote: »

Have only seen about half of these myself, but seems to be a pretty good list of recommendations for similar documentaries...

http://www.techinsider.io/best-true-crime-documentaries-to-watch-2015-12

I've seen all but 3, The Imposter is insane, far stranger than fiction. Highly recommend that one.

Elmo · 03-01-2016 12:00AM

bridgettedon wrote: »

With regards to Colburn and the registration of the car. It could be that he illegally entered the Avery property and came across it. But it's hard to know. He looked very nervous on the stand especially for a police officer. But that doesn't mean much at the same time.

If Steven Avery was framed this is the only point at which the opportunity arises. There is a possibility that Colburn found the car and the body at the quarry.

Now this also leads to did Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey help frame him? Did they kill her? Did the police use them to get them to use Brendan?

Lord Trollington · 03-01-2016 12:01AM

Luis Colossal Thinker wrote: »

I seem to be the only person that thinks they are both 100% guilty . like her truck disappeared on his land and she was burned on his land, who the hell else did it.
I didn't think it was very good tbh, dragged on way too long. I had lost interest by episode 6/

Wow. That is all.

daisybelle2008 · 03-01-2016 12:08AM

I do wonder if crushing the Rav 4 would have drawn more attention to Avery, surely you can't dispose of a car 100%, the crushed remains and probably only a few people able to operate the equipment on the site would be more conclusive in pointing at him than leaving it intact. So not sure about the non-crushing being used as backing Avery.

Sunflower 27 · 03-01-2016 12:09AM

mhge wrote: »

How do you know it was all lies, and malicious lies at that? Because he said so?
And how do you "ruin" someone with sleazy gossip if they had criminal convictions and allegations against them already, so any such rumours are small change?

I find your emotional defence and the willingness to excuse any of his multiple transgressions quite bizarre. He may be a victim of wrongful conviction but on the strength of his own deeds he is certainly a nasty individual even if Teresa Halbach was alive and well today.

Find it bizarre as much as you like. I think I have explained my defence quite well. If you don't agree, that's fine, you dont have to.

Telling people someone is a sexual deviant is malicious. it is going to cause a lot of anger. He shouldnt have done what he did, no question if that, but having previous convictions didn't mean he was having sex with his partner in full view of everyone.

It's not bizarre I am defending SA. I think he is innocent, why wouldn't I? And again, I never said he was a great guy. I just don't believe he can be labled a psychopath on one cruel incident. It is not sympathetic at all to say this when you read what defines a psychopath. It is far more complex that killing an animal.
Further, I understand his anger at his cousin spreading malicious gossip around town.

Maybe you think he shouldn't have cared about being labled a pervert because he already had a criminal past, but that's you. I would imagine most people would be outraged to hear things said like that, irrespective of other crimes they had committed.

Elmo · 03-01-2016 12:34AM

daisybelle2008 wrote: »

I do wonder if crushing the Rav 4 would have drawn more attention to Avery, surely you can't dispose of a car 100%, the crushed remains and probably only a few people able to operate the equipment on the site would be more conclusive in pointing at him than leaving it intact. So not sure about the non-crushing being used as backing Avery.

Why not burn the car? why keep it on your property? AFAIK know both phone and camera were burnt, why not the car? Was the car found with its licence plates? Why not remove them? A car in a scrap yard would go unnoticed with a whole load of other cars. Why not wash out the car? Considering you supposedly immaculately cleaned the murder scene.

I am still not sure any of the pieces fit together

1. The Key, IMO might have been a plant
2. The Bloodied Bullet, IMO might have been a plant
3. His blood in the car also might have been a plant
4. The car could have easily been moved
5. The body? I am not so sure, this seems like the biggest job, unless it was burnt before it was planted.

Those are the 5 pieces of physical evidence against Steve Avery.

bridgettedon · 03-01-2016 12:38AM

Elmo wrote: »

Why not burn the car? why keep it on your property? AFAIK know both phone and camera were burnt, why not the car? Was the car found with its licence plates? Why not remove them? A car in a scrap yard would go unnoticed with a whole load of other cars. Why not wash out the car? Considering you supposedly immaculately cleaned the murder scene.

I am still not sure any of the pieces fit together

1. The Key, IMO might have been a plant
2. The Bloodied Bullet, IMO might have been a plant
3. His blood in the car also might have been a plant
4. The car could have easily been moved
5. The body? I am not so sure, this seems like the biggest job, unless it was burnt before it was planted.

Those are the 5 pieces of physical evidence against Steve Avery.

I think the license plates were removed and found in a different car in the scrap yard.

Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

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