Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

Sunflower 27

Taboola wrote: »

Yes because you implied there was nothing unusual about having chains in a car junkyard. Can the same be said for handcuffs? I don't think so.

Here... yes, people can have handcuffs and not use them to hold people hostage and murder them. That is what I was answering in reference to the above you posted.

Mantis Toboggan

Ageyev wrote: »

It won't change Avery's legal position. A governor or president isn't going to pardon based on an entertainment show on Netflix. As his former lawyer Dean Strang said in interviews in recent days: there would need to be new evidence either by way of new witnesses coming forward or new scientific testing. Someone coming forward with new information doesn't even guarantee a new trial.

Strang said the documentary should be looked at as an examination of the system and to question whether it leads to justice.

Not sure if you've heard the serial podcast but that's similar enough dealing with murder and shows the ineptitude of the police force. That podcast alone and has managed to force a retrial.

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Maybe that's what he was checking. That he wrote it down correctly. Seems reasonable enough for an officer to check info like that with dispatch if they got it from another call.

So he likely did write it down and called it in but can't remember if he wrote it down? I get it now, thanks.

Paully D

Apologies if it has been mentioned more times than I realise but I've done a quick search and I don't think people are making enough of the seriousness of what was about to happen to the individual officers, county and DA who were involved in stitching Avery up the first time if he had been able to go through with his lawsuit.

They would have personally been on the hook for $36m.

Sunflower 27

Paully D wrote: »

Apologies if it has been mentioned more times than I realise but I've done a quick search and I don't think people are making enough of the seriousness of what was about to happen to the individual officers, county and DA who were involved in stitching Avery up the first time if he had been able to go through with his lawsuit.

They would have personally been on the hook for $36m.

Yes, 36 million reasons to make sure Avery over anyone else on the property that day was convicted.

And what do you know, it's one of those lads that finds the key (after 7 searches )

Paully D

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

They have a murder weapon. Stephen Averys gun. With a bullet found in garage with Halbachs dna on it and a matching bullet wound in the fragments of her skull.

They also have the motive. Whether you believe it or not there's quite a bit of evidence pointing to the man they convicted. Personally I think the police ****ed it up so that it wasn't a fair conviction but I still think there's enough to point to Avery.

Everything else I've heard has been what ifs and maybes. There's little to no evidence to point to anyone else as the killer.

Yes, but for 8 days the police were allowed free reign on the Avery property. In that situation I have to ask myself - who better to ensure that there's evidence pointing to Avery than the police? After all, they are the one set of people who know exactly what they need and want to find in these scenarios.

In the closing arguments Kratz actually said "so what if the key was planted"?. Oh, and "reasonable doubt is for innocent people". For me it's just impossible to take anything they said or did at face value.

strandroad

Paully D wrote: »

Apologies if it has been mentioned more times than I realise but I've done a quick search and I don't think people are making enough of the seriousness of what was about to happen to the individual officers, county and DA who were involved in stitching Avery up the first time if he had been able to go through with his lawsuit.

They would have personally been on the hook for $36m.

Wasn't it a county lawsuit?

Thelomen Toblackai

Paully D wrote: »

Yes, but for 8 days the police were allowed free reign on the Avery property. In that situation I have to ask myself - who better to ensure that there's evidence pointing to Avery than the police? After all, they are the one set of people who know exactly what they need and want to find in these scenarios.

In the closing arguments Kratz actually said "so what if the key was planted"?. Oh, and "reasonable doubt is for innocent people". For me it's just impossible to take anything they said or did at face value.

You could say the same about most investigations though. Kratz is an idiot but there was a lot of people involved in the investigation and the defence while arguing it was a frame weren't able to prove anything.

Evidence trumps suspicions and allegations when it comes to a court of law.

Thelomen Toblackai

mhge wrote: »

Wasn't it a county lawsuit?

It's said in the show the state settled the suit for the 400k. So I'm not sure how true that statement was that the officers were personally the hook.

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

You could say the same about most investigations though. Kratz is an idiot but there was a lot of people involved in the investigation and the defence while arguing it was a frame weren't able to prove anything.

Evidence trumps suspicions and allegations when it comes to a court of law.

The evidence though is highly questionable. As is the way it was obtained.

Some info here on the lawsuit.


https://m.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrybq/averys_lawsuit_what_was_really_at_stake_for/

gavmcg92

Slightly off topic here but I want to be called for jury duty now more than ever!

Thelomen Toblackai

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

The evidence though is highly questionable. As is the way it was obtained.

Some info here on the lawsuit.


https://m.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrybq/averys_lawsuit_what_was_really_at_stake_for/

From that link it suggests the insurance paid the settlement. And the individuals would only be on the hook if found guilty of illegal conduct.

They'd already been cleared of legal and ethical wrongdoing in the investigation by the state.

At best they were negligent in that investigation and if they lost or settled they would be covered. I don't see why they would be worried over criminal wrongdoing after already being investigated and cleared.

8-10

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Slightly off topic here but I want to be called for jury duty now more than ever!

I got called last January when I was something like 8 or 9 episodes into listening to Serial. Was interesting timing.

Thelomen Toblackai

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Slightly off topic here but I want to be called for jury duty now more than ever!

I dunno I'd say sitting in a courtroom for 7 weeks listening to mountains of details would be tough going.

Ageyev

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Not sure if you've heard the serial podcast but that's similar enough dealing with murder and shows the ineptitude of the police force. That podcast alone and has managed to force a retrial.

Yeah I listened to Serial. Afaik Adnan's legal team were already working on another appeal and/or an application for a retrial. I don't think Serial had an effect on the legal system.

I think it's interesting and sort of unusual (not in a had sense) how public opinion, at least online, seems to support both Avery and Dassey after a 10hour documentary. In murder cases like this many people are often baying for blood -"lock 'em up and throw away the key" kind of opinions. You see it regularly when people comment on cases. You can see it in vox pop interviews in the show where arbitrary judgements are offered on newscasts, "yeah I believe he is probably guilty" etc.

Thepoet85

Thelomen Toblackai wrote:

You could say the same about most investigations though. Kratz is an idiot but there was a lot of people involved in the investigation and the defence while arguing it was a frame weren't able to prove anything.

One thing Kratz certainly is not, is an idiot.

Ageyev

Ageyev wrote: »

Yeah I listened to Serial. Afaik Adnan's legal team were already working on another appeal and/or an application for a retrial. I don't think Serial had an effect on the legal system.

I think it's interesting and sort of unusual (not in a had sense) how public opinion, at least online, seems to support both Avery and Dassey after a 10hour documentary. In murder cases like this many people are often baying for blood -"lock 'em up and throw away the key" kind of opinions. You see it regularly when people comment on cases. You can see it in vox pop interviews in the show where arbitrary judgements are offered on newscasts, "yeah I believe he is probably guilty" etc.

I should add that the mob mentality many often have towards justice in murder cases is now being somewhat represented in comments online towards Kratz for eg. there's a "Justice for Steven and Brendan" page on Facebook with people saying all manner of bad things about Kratz, posting similar on his law firm's FB page, negative reviews on its Yelp page.

Mantis Toboggan

Ageyev wrote: »

I should add that the mob mentality many often have towards justice in murder cases is now being somewhat represented in comments online towards Kratz for eg. there's a "Justice for Steven and Brendan" page on Facebook with people saying all manner of bad things about Kratz, posting similar on his law firm's FB page, negative reviews on its Yelp page.

Yup and a 5 star rating for Averys autoshop on google maps with hundreds of "reviews"

Thelomen Toblackai

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Yup and a 5 star rating for Averys autoshop on google maps with hundreds of "reviews"

Pretty odd people are promoting the business of two men the defence was trying to put forward as other potential killers due to their violent criminal past and how they harassed females customers of the autoshop.

I'd say the entire family and business have an even worse reputation at this stage in the eyes of the local community.

2forjoy

I think Steven should have testified himself

Mantis Toboggan

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Pretty odd people are promoting the business of two men the defence was trying to put forward as other potential killers

Don't think they're trying to promote them just a way to get in touch.
Just looking at the site on google earth, serious amount of cars, they done well to find the exact car in 20 minutes...

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

From that link it suggests the insurance paid the settlement. And the individuals would only be on the hook if found guilty of illegal conduct.

They'd already been cleared of legal and ethical wrongdoing in the investigation by the state.

At best they were negligent in that investigation and if they lost or settled they would be covered. I don't see why they would be worried over criminal wrongdoing after already being investigated and cleared.

From my reading Avery accepted a settlement because he needed to pay for his attorneys in the murder trial.

I haven't read anywhere that the county officials were individually off the hook so to speak, although obviously am open to reading more about that if you or anyone have links to it?

Sunflower 27

2forjoy wrote: »

I think Steven should have testified himself

Me too, but the guy was probably so afraid of saying tbe wrong thing. He spent 18 years in jail already when he was innocent. You can't blame the guy for having little faith in the legal system

Sunflower 27

Thepoet85 wrote: »

One thing Kratz certainly is not, is an idiot.

He's dangerous.

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Pretty odd people are promoting the business of two men the defence was trying to put forward as other potential killers due to their violent criminal past and how they harassed females customers of the autoshop.

I'd say the entire family and business have an even worse reputation at this stage in the eyes of the local community.

Maybe in the local community, but certainly not on a national and international scale

Thelomen Toblackai

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

From my reading Avery accepted a settlement because he needed to pay for his attorneys in the murder trial.

I haven't read anywhere that the county officials were individually off the hook so to speak, although obviously am open to reading more about that if you or anyone have links to it?

They settled the case for 400k with the state. It was paid by their insurance. It's all in your own link.

Also states the only way they'd be on the hook for the money is if they were found guilty of illegal actions because the insurance would only cover negligence. Which they were already deemed innocent of from the state investigation.

Elmo

I haven't read the above posts.

I think the Avery's are like many families who aren't shown respect in their town, through no fault of their own the are shown to be pariahs, perhaps for a small misdemeanor or use of alcohol and then a cycle begins, they become reclusive and that odd family up the road.

I believe this happened: -

1. Halbach visited the Avery's, she's a photographer and takes her pictures and provides an invoice (TBH I don't think it matters if she enters the house).
2. She leaves and goes to the Quarry, something she does to take photos as a hobbyist.
3. There she is met by someone who knows she might be there. They have an argument and she is murdered. The murder leaves the scene.
4. At some point a Sergeant with the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department discovers the vehicle and body. they then uses this opportunity to set up Avery.
5. Using Avery's gun they shoot the body several times, pick up any remaining bullets and shells. They burn the body and move the remains to the Avery's. Leaving some remains. Which are later used to suggest that Avery tried to move the body.

The theory has holes but then so does the prosecutions line that Halbach was shot, stabbed and burnt at the Avery's.

I'd like to know what happened Halbach's phone and camera, they found her Key, if the murderer took time to keep the key they would have also kept the camera and phone (surely more valuable to Avery).

I think Ken Kratz continued warnings about pointing the figure on upstanding law enforcement officers was completely hypocritical, here was a law enforcement agency who had already framed Avery, so their families and friends knew that they are not all that upstanding. While at the same time he used Avery's background to continually denounce him.

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

They settled the case for 400k with the state. It was paid by their insurance. It's all in your own link.

Also states the only way they'd be on the hook for the money is if they were found guilty of illegal actions because the insurance would only cover negligence. Which they were already deemed innocent of from the state investigation.

Are you saying there was no chance any of them would have had to pay out anything? That they were all covered? I don't mean highly unlikely or anything like that, I mean 100% they would not be liable for anything?

It appears Steven only settled with the state because he had no other way of paying his attorneys. If he hadn't agreed to settle what would have happened?

He was suing the county, hence my confusion.

Thelomen Toblackai

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Are you saying there was no chance any of them would have had to pay out anything? That they were all covered? I don't mean highly unlikely or anything like that, I mean 100% they would not be liable for anything?

It appears Steven only settled with the state because he had no other way of paying his attorneys. If he hadn't agreed to settle what would have happened?

He was suing the county, hence my confusion.

I'm not saying 100% anything. I'm saying they'd have to be found to have committed illegal acts to be on the hook.

If your trying to fashion a motive to back up the speculation of the conspiracy and all the what ifs you'd have to use more speculation and what ifs.

Lots of speculation and what ifs there. Not much fact or evidence to back up even the motive let alone the conspiracy.

Sunflower 27

Elmo wrote: »

I haven't read the above posts.

I think the Avery's are like many families who aren't shown respect in their town, through no fault of their own the are shown to be pariahs, perhaps for a small misdemeanor or use of alcohol and then a cycle begins, they become reclusive and that odd family up the road.

I believe this happened: -

1. Halbach visited the Avery's, she's a photographer and takes her pictures and provides an invoice (TBH I don't think it matters if she enters the house).
2. She leaves and goes to the Quarry, something she does to take photos as a hobbyist.
3. There she is met by someone who knows she might be there. They have an argument and she is murdered. The murder leaves the scene.
4. At some point a Sergeant with the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department discovers the vehicle and body. they then uses this opportunity to set up Avery.
5. Using Avery's gun they shoot the body several times, pick up any remaining bullets and shells. They burn the body and move the remains to the Avery's. Leaving some remains. Which are later used to suggest that Avery tried to move the body.

The theory has holes but then so does the prosecutions line that Halbach was shot, stabbed and burnt at the Avery's.

I'd like to know what happened Halbach's phone and camera, they found her Key, if the murderer took time to keep the key they would have also kept the camera and phone (surely more valuable to Avery).

I think Ken Kratz continued warnings about pointing the figure on upstanding law enforcement officers was completely hypocritical, here was a law enforcement agency who had already framed Avery, so their families and friends knew that they are not all that upstanding. While at the same time he used Avery's background to continually denounce him.

Mad in hindsight when we hear what happened to kratz and the domestic abuse victim. Such a hypocrite

As far as I know her camera and phone were burned with the body.