Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

Elmo · 02-01-2016 03:05AM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

There was a post on reddit with a source and details but the link doesn't seem to be working now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3yf48y/steve_averys_2004_alleged_sexual_assault_threat/

Again this is about the presumption of innocence. I am not defending Avery, but if you want to successfully bring something to trail there has to be a presumption of innocence.

It seems the police and the Avery family all have a dishonest past. How do you believe any of them?

On the one hand you have Kratz saying.... "Well you know those Averys" and quickly followed by "Well you don't want to ruin the upstanding reputation of upstanding law enforcement officers".

Elmo · 02-01-2016 03:09AM

Green Peter wrote: »

The car, the blood and the charred remains were planted, the car was checked by the policeman two days before it was found, why would someone interfere with the blood sample only if they needed some to frame him, the remains were found at 3 locations , imo she was burned at the quarry and brought to averys, the killer imo testified on the documentary.

I agree, slightly unsure all the same. Anyone know if pictures of the Quarry scene were shown in the documentary.

Green Peter · 02-01-2016 03:12AM

Elmo wrote:

I agree. Anyone know if pictures of the Quarry scene were shown in the documentary.

I think only pictures on the projector from a height, it looked like it was in an nearby field close to the road you could see the 3 locations in the one shot

Ageyev · 02-01-2016 04:21AM

Tyson Fury wrote: »

What ever about Steve, I'd fully expect Brendan to be awarded a retrial following the documentary.

He won't be awarded a retrial based on the documetary. Per Steven Avery's lawyer Dean Strang, Brendan is in federal court seeking redress - not sure on what argument exactly, possibly an appeal.

Courts don't make judgments based on Netflix documentaries.

DrumSteve wrote: »

The guy who did the theme for this did the OST for The Last of Us...

Unbelievable stuff so far.

Didn't know that. It's a great score and the overall production of the credits and music is very good.

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 06:32AM

Elmo wrote: »

Did you see how sloppy the Avery's are, Stephen's bedroom hadn't been tidied in months. There is no way on this earth that the murder took place in the property, absolutely no way.

The only bit of blood found was on a bullet that went through the victims head, there should have been traces of blood everywhere. According to the state this was a bloody murder.

I think given the absence if no blood at all, we can presume Teresa was not shot and killed where the defence say she was. It is not possible for someone to be murdered at a location and all that is left is a bullet with inconclusive dna evidence of the possible killer.

Someone put that bullet there, from where it was found originally.

I think the police were not prepared to take any chances. If a bullet was not found in Avery's garage, it would implicate any of them that were near Teresa that day on the property, for exampme Bobby & Scott, that could only alibi each other and whose timeline did not add up, as shown by the bus driver (an independent winess who was at the property the same time.e every day do her timing would have been accurate)

Is there a map of the yard showing where the bones were found? The different sites. How far away were they from each other?

Mantis Toboggan · 02-01-2016 08:39AM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Avery was 20 when he poured petrol on a cat and threw it onto a bonfire to watch it die. He served a prison sentence for it and his second stint in prison after 10 months for burglary when he was 18. He subsequently served 6 years for assaulting his cousin and possession of a firearm. He ran her off the road, pointed a gun at her head and tried to force her into his vehicle, after she accused him of exposing himself to her and neighbours. After his release for the false conviction and at the time of the murder he was being investigated for sexually abusing his niece.

One thing the judge mentioned in his sentencing was that the majority of his adult life he was committing steadily more serious crimes. This isn't some poor guy who did some regretful things when he was a kid.

Think most of this has little relevance, remember this was the cousin who was married to the cop, also the police force who wrongfully locked him away for 20 years already. I've no doubt he robbed the pub and attacked the cat but we all do stupid things as a kid doesn't make him a murderer.

Mantis Toboggan · 02-01-2016 08:41AM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Is there a map of the yard showing where the bones were found? The different sites. How far away were they from each other?

You can see most of it on google maps.

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 11:50AM

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Think most of this has little relevance, remember this was the cousin who was married to the cop, also the police force who wrongfully locked him away for 20 years already. I've no doubt he robbed the pub and attacked the cat but we all do stupid things as a kid doesn't make him a murderer.

He wasn't a kid. Everything in that list he's an adult. He was 20 when he tortured and killed the cat. By the time he was 30 he's spent about 7 years in jail for violent crimes.

Why do you think he didn't do the rest of it ? He admitted what he did to his cousin that got him a 6 year sting in prison. How can you pass that off as part of a police conspiracy ?

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 12:07PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

He wasn't a kid. Everything in that list he's an adult. He was 20 when he tortured and killed the cat. By the time he was 30 he's spent about 7 years in jail for violent crimes.

Why do you think he didn't do the rest of it ? He admitted what he did to his cousin that got him a 6 year sting in prison. How can you pass that off as part of a police conspiracy ?

Agreed, that isn't a conspiray, but what he was on trial for re the murder very much looks that way, many seem to think.

Judge Willis seems to be getting a bit of a roasting online. The judge was born and bred in that county, I think he was biased as a result, especially as Steven had fingered that county's law enforcers as setting him up and a lawsuit was pending. Is it not likely that Judge Willis was no fan of SA from the very start? Wasn't it that very court that sentenced him wrongly for the sexual assault charge that he served 18 years for and was then exonarated? Ouch, that had to hurt.

I personally think he had too much vested interest in this case to preside over it without ANY bias creeping in.

It appears that in his denying the defense any chance of investigating other suspects, Willis paved the way for SA to have no possible chance of a retrial before the trial even began.

I have read through the documents that SA's attorneys put forward. They clearly state that there was other people on the property at the time that Teresa went missing. That Scott one, Brendan's now stepfather, had a very chequered criminal past. Also, was his timeline not out according to the bus driver? She would have been on that property every day at the same time so you could say she, at least, was reliable.

Judge Willis said there had to be motive for another suspect to be considered and yet there was one - the very same one they got Avery on - sexual assault.

I can't think of any other case where other possible suspects weren't legitimately investigated (and certainly those with criminal pasts) and ruled out.

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 12:33PM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

That isn't a conspiray, but what he was on trial for re the murder very much looks that way, many seem to think.

Judge Willis seems to be getting a bit of a roasting online. The judge was born and bred in that county, I think he was biased as a result, especially as Steven had fingered that county's law enforcers as setting him up and a lawsuit was pending. Is it not likely that Judge Willis was no fan of SA from the very start?

I personally think he had too much vested interest in this case to preside over it without ANY bias creeping in.

Stephen was a repeat offender. The police and judges would deal with many repeat offenders. I don't see why they'd single out Avery as one person in the country they hated more than anyone.

It appears that in his denying the defense any chance of investigating other suspects, Willis paved the way for SA to have no possible chance of a retrial before the trial even began.

I have read through the documents that SA's attorneys put forward. They clearly state that there was other people on the property at the time that Teresa went missing. That Scott one, Brendan's now stepfather, had a very chequered criminal past. Also, was his timeline not out according to the bus driver? She would have been on that property every day at the same time so you could say she, at least, was reliable.

Judge Willis said their had to be motive for another suspect to be considered and yet there was one - the very same one they got Avery on - sexual assault.

I can't think of any other case where other possible suspects weren't legitimately investigated (and certainly those with criminal pasts) and ruled out.

Hang on the judge never denied anyone the chance of investigating other suspects. He denied the defence the chance to accuse others of murder in the trial as a defence strategy due to lack of evidence.

Again its strange people are saying Stephens history doesn't mean anything and going on about a presumption of innocence while at the same time saying the defence should have been allowed to accuse other people of murder based on their dodgy history alone with no evidence to back it up.

They were all questioned. They all had DNA samples taken to check against those found. The reason they weren't the main focus of the investigation and eventually accused of murder is because the evidence pointed to Stephen Avery. He also had a violent criminal past. But unlike the rest he organised for her to come out there, the last time she was seen was in his yard, his DNA was found in her car, the remains were outside his house in a place he was burning stuff that day, a bullet matching his gun was found in his garage with the victims dna on it.

They found the evidence that pointed them to the killer and they went for a conviction. That's generally how these things work.

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 12:42PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Stephen was a repeat offender. The police and judges would deal with many repeat offenders. I don't see why they'd single out Avery as one person in the country they hated more than anyone.

Hang on the judge never denied anyone the chance of investigating other suspects. He denied the defence the chance to accuse others of murder in the trial as a defence strategy due to lack of evidence.

Again its strange people are saying Stephens history doesn't mean anything and going on about a presumption of innocence while at the same time saying the defence should have been allowed to accuse other people of murder based on their dodgy history alone with no evidence to back it up.

They were all questioned. They all had DNA samples taken to check against those found. The reason they weren't the main focus of the investigation and eventually accused of murder is because the evidence pointed to Stephen Avery. He also had a violent criminal past. But unlike the rest he organised for her to come out there, the last time she was seen was in his yard, his DNA was found in her car, the remains were outside his house in a place he was burning stuff that day, a bullet matching his gun was found in his garage with the victims dna on it.

They found the evidence that pointed them to the killer and they went for a conviction. That's generally how these things work.

Judge Willis made the decision on whether any other persons could be considered suspects and in saying no-one else had motive, was able to halt the defense right there.

I don't believe Scott was tested at all.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3ypwly/why_werent_scott_tadychs_fingerprints_and_bucal/

They found evidence? The key and the bullet (inconclusive) with no blood in the garage. They found evidence Teresa was murdered, not that Avery was the one that did it.

blowin3 · 02-01-2016 12:45PM

I just finished watching this last night and could not believe to me ( non legal mind) was a travesty of justice. To me the biggest problem was no proof of a murder scene. It was first the bedroom and than garage but NO blood or dna bar the spent round. I don't think Stephan or Brendan were top of the Q for brains when they were being handed out so how did they manage the cleaning of a crime scene as was pointed out by the defense .

My believe she was murdered by someone(maybe Avery family ) and found by the cops who set up Stephan.

fin12 · 02-01-2016 01:45PM

I'm just on episode 9, but was Brendan brought to trial on his statements alone??? And statements swell that he has changed several times, how can you bring someone to trial if there is no physical evidence at all linking them to the crime or is it because the cops planted all the evidence to match Brendan's story???

Also why did he actually tell his mother that he did some of the things to Theresa that he had told the cops? Why say that to your mother if ur innocent?

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 01:52PM

fin12 wrote: »

I'm just on episode 9, but was Brendan brought to trial on his statements alone??? And statements swell that he has changed several times, how can you bring someone to trial if there is no physical evidence at all linking them to the crime or is it because the cops planted all the evidence to match Brendan's story???

Also why did he actually tell his mother that he did some of the things to Theresa that he had told the cops? Why say that to your mother if ur innocent?

Maybe he was scared of saying he lied to police officers.

The cops really made him feel bad when he didn't give them the right answers. Imagine if he then said 'I made it all up'?

He was very confused and afraid. His uncle had been wrongly imprisoned for so long, I think he was just so scared he said what he felt they wanted to hear, or, more accurately just agreed to what they told him happened. There was an awful scene where he was being questioned in that small room and when he didn't give the answer he was meant to, the cop swung back his head, as if saying 'come on, don't lie'. That was just incredible.

Mantis Toboggan · 02-01-2016 02:36PM

Do we find out what happened to Steve Averys kids?

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 03:21PM

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Do we find out what happened to Steve Averys kids?

I think Avery's first wife was remarried to Brendan Dasseys father. So her and the kids are in that general area where the rest of the family is.

Taboola · 02-01-2016 03:49PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

I think Avery's first wife was remarried to Brendan Dasseys father. So her and the kids are in that general area where the rest of the family is.

Woah.

I wonder did she or the kids ever do any interviews?

fin12 · 02-01-2016 04:32PM

I thought when the police are interviewing a person who is under 18 that they have to have a parent or guardian present? Brendan's mother also said that the cops wouldn't allow her in during the interview, I just can't even understand how this case got to trial???? No parent or lawyer present ever when he was being interviewed???????

How can you convict someone of sexual assault without DNA evidence??? They wouldn't have been able to determine if she had been raped from her remains so their conviction is based on the fact so that he said he raped her?????

Missyelliot2 · 02-01-2016 05:10PM

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Do we find out what happened to Steve Averys kids?

I saw a video of one of his twin boys being interviewed - Billy Avery. He is in the army, but his dad has been in jail since he was 10 weeks old. He hasn't had any contact with his Dad for 6 years.

His sister keeps in regular contact with Steven Avery.

Beef · 02-01-2016 06:11PM

Fascinating story, I binge watched it over Christmas holidays.

Impartial jury..?

"Perhaps more to the point for Avery, the panel selected Friday includes a man whose son works for the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department and a man whose wife works for the Manitowoc County clerk of courts office. Avery, 44, is charged with killing 25-year-old photographer Teresa Halbach."

"Those connections are significant because Avery claims that a vial of his blood was left unsecured in the clerk's office and that sheriff's deputies used it to plant his blood inside Halbach's vehicle."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/29326359.html

fin12 · 02-01-2016 06:20PM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Maybe he was scared of saying he lied to police officers.

The cops really made him feel bad when he didn't give them the right answers. Imagine if he then said 'I made it all up'?

He was very confused and afraid. His uncle had been wrongly imprisoned for so long, I think he was just so scared he said what he felt they wanted to hear, or, more accurately just agreed to what they told him happened. There was an awful scene where he was being questioned in that small room and when he didn't give the answer he was meant to, the cop swung back his head, as if saying 'come on, don't lie'. That was just incredible.

I understand now why he did it, its in episode 10, he's own defense tricked him into saying it... Feel so sorry for Brendan, its so horrible what happened to him.
Feel so sorry for Avery's parents, I'm sick to my stomach after watching this show.....
Stephen's girlfriend Sandy seems like a lovely person..

adox · 02-01-2016 06:49PM

People who torutre and kill animals for kicks is recognised as an early alarm bell for a possible psychopath.

One doesn't always lead to another of course, but people do seem to be sweeping it under the carpet a bit.

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 07:10PM

adox wrote: »

People who torutre and kill animals for kicks is recognised as an early alarm bell for a possible psychopath.

One doesn't always lead to another of course, but people do seem to be sweeping it under the carpet a bit.

That's when it's done as a kid. When you do it at 20 years old it doesn't mean you may turn into a psychopath it means you are a psychopath. Normal adults don't do things like that.

Elmo · 02-01-2016 07:13PM

adox wrote: »

People who torutre and kill animals for kicks is recognised as an early alarm bell for a possible psychopath.

One doesn't always lead to another of course, but people do seem to be sweeping it under the carpet a bit.

He doesn't come across as a psychopath. For all the faults in his relationships he seemed to have 3 good ones and he seemed willing to forgive and forget for the most part.

Generally speaking people who abuse animals and are psychopathic do it from an earlier age and they generally don't show any love for anyone. I don't know if animal torture was something Avery was involved in from an early age.

On the other hand we are not willing to sweep under the carpet the corruption in the the legal system. Which seems to be what a lot of people want many to do.

IMO regardless of this conviction all of the Law enforcement officers should be sacked for their work on the original case.

Also regardless of the bias contained in the series. It is a great TV series, from cinematography, music, story, editing. A brilliantly executed series.

Take a look at The Thin Blue Line from 1988, I think it is on Netflix also.

Elmo · 02-01-2016 07:16PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

That's when it's done as a kid. When you do it at 20 years old it doesn't mean you may turn into a psychopath it means you are a psychopath. Normal adults don't do things like that.

TBH I can imagine stupid 20 year old's messing about, egging each other on. He did it with another friend, is the friend also a psychopath?

Sunflower 27 · 02-01-2016 07:41PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

That's when it's done as a kid. When you do it at 20 years old it doesn't mean you may turn into a psychopath it means you are a psychopath. Normal adults don't do things like that.

Even with an IQ of 70?

Or maybe it was the behaviour of a mentally-impaired stupid young man wanting to impress his friends? I don't know, I just don't think one event can label someone a psychopath. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be labelling anyone on one incident.

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 08:07PM

Elmo wrote: »

TBH I can imagine stupid 20 year old's messing about, egging each other on. He did it with another friend, is the friend also a psychopath?

I can imagine stupid 30 year old's doing it. Doesn't matter what age, if you do **** like that for a laugh as an adult you're displaying some very serious and disturbing tendencies. There's a reason Avery and anyone else serves a prison sentence for that. And it's not because they were stupid.

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 08:12PM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Even with an IQ of 70?

Or maybe it was the behaviour of a mentally-impaired stupid young man wanting to impress his friends? I don't know, I just don't think one event can label someone a psychopath. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be labelling anyone on one incident.

What has his IQ got to do with it ? He's absolved of committing horrific criminal acts because hes not very bright ? He's not mentally impaired, hes just a bit dumb and has a disturbing tendency towards violence. He's still 100% accountable for his actions.

Elmo · 02-01-2016 08:17PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

I can imagine stupid 30 year old's doing it. Doesn't matter what age, if you do **** like that for a laugh as an adult you're displaying some very serious and disturbing tendencies. There's a reason Avery and anyone else serves a prison sentence for that. And it's not because they were stupid.

I can't imagine a stupid 30yo OR 40yo etc doing it. No one is saying that he was right just because he was young. He served time for this particularly cruel act. Unlike law enforcement officers who put a 23 year old into prison for something he didn't do. Clearly they show just many serious and disturbing tendencies when they sat on evidence and try to cover up their incompetence.

His accomplice also showed some very serious and disturbing tendencies. Where is he now?

Thelomen Toblackai · 02-01-2016 08:29PM

Elmo wrote: »

I can't imagine a stupid 30yo OR 40yo etc doing it. No one is saying that he was right just because he was young. He served time for this particularly cruel act. Unlike law enforcement officers who put a 23 year old into prison for something he didn't do. Clearly they show just many serious and disturbing tendencies when they sat on evidence and try to cover up their incompetence.

His accomplice also showed some very serious and disturbing tendencies. Where is he now?

Sure you can imagine it. It's not something normal people do but there's some people who are still capable of doing it. Just as Avery was at the age of 20.

Avery was convicted and sentenced to 6 years in prison at the age of 23 for running his cousin off the road and trying to force her at gun point into his car. The fact he was exonerated of the rape doesn't mean he went to prison for something he didn't do. Only that he served a longer sentence than he otherwise would have.

I get what ya mean but it's not a straightforward case of innocent man goes down for something he didn't do. The police should be held to account for their incompetence but it's irrelevant when it comes to Avery's crimes he was actually guilty of.

I don't know who his accomplice was. But I'd be happy to say if he was an adult burning cats alive for a laugh he wasn't right in the head.

Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

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