When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?

Orangebrigade · 02-01-2016 12:20AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Fine Gael attempted this about ten years ago...

Enda's ideas were attacked and shot down in flames from all sides

Being a fluent Irish speaker himself, he wanted to take some of the stigma out of the teaching of Irish, so he suggested removing the compulsory teaching of Irish (post Inter Cert), therby giving the language a new platform to be looked at favourably by those students who wanted to carry it through to their leaving cert (while leaving those not interested in Irish alone) > but even that suggestion got a very negative and verbally violent reaction.

Nothing has been heard since re the suggestion.

Pupils should refuse to learn it. Practically forcing it down the throats of people is wrong.

Caoimhgh1n · 02-01-2016 12:22AM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Pupils should refuse to learn it. Practically forcing it down the throats of people is wrong.

The same could be said about maths. Loads of people hate maths, and post j.c maths will not be required in lots of people's lives.

Orangebrigade · 02-01-2016 12:25AM

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The same could be said about maths. Loads of people hate maths, and post j.c maths will not be required in lots of people's lives.

Maths is essential and has to be taught if you want balanced citizens.

The Irish language should only be a hobby for people if they want to learn it. Like many cultural arts in the world.

LordSutch · 02-01-2016 12:26AM

masti123 wrote: »

Irish as a compulsory subject isn't the problem. The way it's thought in schools just needs to be modernised. Currently it's a disgrace the way it's taught; rote learning and uninteresting poetry. Update it and show off the full beauty and power of one of Ireland's most beautiful assets.

Yes I hear what you are saying, and I guess Enda knew this too, pre his aborted suggestion. But after eight or nine decades of failed teaching methods, what do you do when the educational hierarchy see nothing wrong with the present system? decade after decade after decade, and it goes on and on . . .

Caoimhgh1n · 02-01-2016 12:27AM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Maths is essential and has to be taught if you want balanced citizens.

The Irish language should only be a hobby for people if they want to learn it. Like many cultural arts in the world.

Post Junior Cert maths is not essential.

FloatingVoter · 02-01-2016 12:30AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

That would explain bilingualism but not teaching your children to not speak Irish at all. And I don't think we can blame the English. Even if Irish wasn't taught at school it could be taught at home.
You have to go out of your way to not allow your children to speak your language. You can't really speak to them. ( Although it probably happened across 3 generations).

Clearly the peasantry lost all faith in the language. Even hated it.

Why would parents teach them ? You teach your kids what's useful - right from wrong, cross the road safely, don't get pregnant, don't do heroin. When and where would Mary and Joe O' Bloggs get the time to teach their 15 kids some rubbish their grandad mumbles c. 1850 - no Gaelscoils then, just lots of poverty.

Dughorm · 02-01-2016 12:30AM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Maths is essential and has to be taught if you want balanced citizens.

Please tell me more...

Orangebrigade · 02-01-2016 12:33AM

Dughorm wrote: »

Please tell me more...

Think it speaks for itself. Maths is very important for many areas in life. Without it society is worse off.

Hotei · 02-01-2016 12:36AM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Pupils should refuse to learn it. Practically forcing it down the throats of people is wrong.

Out of curiosity, what's your view on the Ulster-Scots "language"?

Caoimhgh1n · 02-01-2016 12:38AM

Hotei wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's your view on the Ulster-Scots "language"?

Why "language" and not language?

Hotei · 02-01-2016 12:40AM

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Why "language" and not language?

I just think it's bastardised english.

Dughorm · 02-01-2016 12:41AM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Think it speaks for itself. Maths is very important for many areas in life. Without it society is worse off.

I happen to be really interested in maths but I can honestly say none of my leaving cert maths has helped me in my employment to date. The LC syllabus for compulsory maths, along with English and Irish would not pass your "important for many areas in life. Without it society is worse off" criteria.

I also happen to think maths should be mandatory but for the same reasons Irish and English should be....

Caoimhgh1n · 02-01-2016 12:41AM

Hotei wrote: »

I just think it's bastardised english.

Maybe English is bastardised Ulster Scots.

Carlos Orange · 02-01-2016 12:43AM

riffmongous wrote: »

Yep everything, there is no culture beyond the anglosphere.. such a sad thing to believe

It kinda seems like that whenever I listen to continentals listening to music.

BoatMad · 02-01-2016 12:57AM

I also happen to think maths should be mandatory but for the same reasons Irish and English should be....

Maths should be compulsory, because we need basic mathematical skills, if the curriculum is wrong it should be changed

English is compulsory because its the lingua franca of our country and the dominant one in the world today

Their is no need for Irish to be compulsory, its not the definition of Irishness or of being Irish. Hence it falls into categories like History or Latin. It should be taught to those that want it and not to those that dont,.

02-01-2016 12:57AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but Language is not a defining part of culture.

Eh, it obviously is. Cop on.

masti123 · 02-01-2016 12:57AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Does anyone know if the signatories of the 1916 Proclamation could speak or write Irish?

Pádraig Pearse had a deep interest in the Irish Language and was involved in the Gaelic revival, I'm unsure about the rest of them.
Collins had some interesting views on the Irish language, this is what he wrote in his book:

English civilization made us into the stage Irishman, hardly a caricature. They destroyed our language, all but destroyed it, and in giving us their own they cursed us so that we have become its slaves. Its words seem with us almost an end in themselves, and not as they should be, the medium for expressing our thoughts. We have now won the first victory.
We have secured the departure of the enemy who imposed upon us that by which we were debased, and by means of which he kept us in subjection. We only succeeded after we had begun to get back our Irish ways, after we had made a serious effort to speak our own language, after we had striven again to govern ourselves. We can only keep out the enemy, and all other enemies, by completing that task. We are now free in name. The extent to which we become free in fact and secure our freedom will be the extent to which we become Gaels again.... But the spiritual machine which has been mutilating us, destroying our customs, and our independent life, is not so easy to discern.... And it has become so familiar, how are we to recognise it? We cannot, perhaps. But we can do something else. We can replace it....The biggest task will be the restoration of the language. How can we express our most subtle thoughts and finest feelings in a foreign tongue? Irish will scarcely be our language in this generation, not even perhaps in the next. But until we have it again on our tongues and in our minds we are not free

I wonder what he'd make of Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language :rolleyes:

BoatMad · 02-01-2016 12:58AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh, it obviously is. Cop on.

sorry no its not, an Irishman who only knows English is no more or less an irishman who also happens to speak irish.

Our culture is not exclusively Gaelic

Paramite Pie · 02-01-2016 01:00AM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Pupils should refuse to learn it. Practically forcing it down the throats of people is wrong.

It didn't feel forced to me. I didn't like the subject in secondary school but it didn't feel forced. A lot of people are just over-dramatic.

I wonder how many peoples opinions on the language is/was shaped by their parents view. While none of my parents helped me with my schoolwork, I do believe they have positive views towards the language. My Dad picked up a lot of Irish working in pubs in the 70s/80s in Galway. He seems to enjoy a bit of banter in Irish.

BoatMad · 02-01-2016 01:16AM

English civilization made us into the stage Irishman, hardly a caricature. They destroyed our language, all but destroyed it, and in giving us their own they cursed us so that we have become its slaves. Its words seem with us almost an end in themselves, and not as they should be, the medium for expressing our thoughts. We have now won the first victory.
We have secured the departure of the enemy who imposed upon us that by which we were debased, and by means of which he kept us in subjection. We only succeeded after we had begun to get back our Irish ways, after we had made a serious effort to speak our own language, after we had striven again to govern ourselves. We can only keep out the enemy, and all other enemies, by completing that task. We are now free in name. The extent to which we become free in fact and secure our freedom will be the extent to which we become Gaels again.... But the spiritual machine which has been mutilating us, destroying our customs, and our independent life, is not so easy to discern.... And it has become so familiar, how are we to recognise it? We cannot, perhaps. But we can do something else. We can replace it....The biggest task will be the restoration of the language. How can we express our most subtle thoughts and finest feelings in a foreign tongue? Irish will scarcely be our language in this generation, not even perhaps in the next. But until we have it again on our tongues and in our minds we are not free

If i wanted the introduction piece on a book of the history of the IRA , I might accept this, but its just foaming at the mouth stuff and bears no historical connection to what actually happened, but people like you ( or more correctly your ideas ) , would make me vote to ban the language completely

02-01-2016 01:17AM

wrote:

Hate to break it to you but Language is not a defining part of culture.

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh, it obviously is. Cop on.

BoatMad wrote: »

sorry no its not, an Irishman who only knows English is no more or less an irishman who also happens to speak irish.

Our culture is not Gaelic

You haven't thought this through, have you. Deep breath. Re-read. Identity ≠ culture. Carry on.

BoatMad · 02-01-2016 01:34AM

You haven't thought this through, have you. Deep breath. Re-read. Identity ≠ culture. Carry on.

our cultural identify is a function of our history, it contains elements of various colonisations over the generations, including the cultural input from british colonisation.

Hence we have a cultural definition that is by that history diverse.

A scotmans cultural identify is not defined by his lack of the Scots Gaelic language no more then an Irishmans is . His cultural identify is actually a function of his mix of british and scots history.

equally an Irishmans cultural identity is as much bound up with say the UK, and also to a lesser extent other cultures as much as it is with some idea of a "Gaelic Paddy ". Most of which was a product of Devalera peculiar mindset

Berserker · 02-01-2016 01:38AM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

It didn't feel forced to me. I didn't like the subject in secondary school but it didn't feel forced. A lot of people are just over-dramatic.

You had the option to study something else instead of Irish, did you? I didn't and you needed to pass Irish to pass your Leaving certificate when I sat mine.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 02-01-2016 01:43AM

BoatMad wrote: »

Maths should be compulsory, because we need basic mathematical skills, if the curriculum is wrong it should be changed

English is compulsory because its the lingua franca of our country and the dominant one in the world today

Their is no need for Irish to be compulsory, its not the definition of Irishness or of being Irish. Hence it falls into categories like History or Latin. It should be taught to those that want it and not to those that dont,.

Primary school maths is more than enough for the vast majority of people to get by with.

BoatMad · 02-01-2016 01:51AM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Primary school maths is more than enough for the vast majority of people to get by with.

indeed, Doncha O'Malley was off his rocker

Paramite Pie · 02-01-2016 02:22AM

Berserker wrote: »

You had the option to study something else instead of Irish, did you? I didn't and you needed to pass Irish to pass your Leaving certificate when I sat mine.

I clearly said it didn't FEEL forced - that's a perception. I never said it was optional.

It felt no more 'forced' than the other Core Subjects - a subject doesn't magically become more forced than our valued subjects. I didn't think of it any differently than Maths or English even though I recognised they're far more important.

BoatMad · 02-01-2016 02:31AM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

I clearly said it didn't FEEL forced - that's a perception. I never said it was optional.

It felt no more 'forced' than the other Core Subjects - a subject doesn't magically become more forced than our valued subjects. I didn't think of it any differently than Maths or English even though I recognised they're far more important.

The big issue was the need to have it to gain entry into university or in fact to actually pass your exam

when the college I was applying to , removed the compulsion to have irish in 1978, I never turned up at the irish exam. !!

but i did learn more french in two years then irish in ten , so that says something

we used to have to stand for our primary class irish lessons, all I remember was the pain in me feet

Then we used to listen to a half hour of BBC schools , go figure

dd972 · 02-01-2016 02:56AM

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Have to say I really love when i hear proud Irish knobhead's in a put shouting F the brits or up the ra or tiocfaidh ar la in their best spoken english .Then go over and say something in Irish and look at them stand there bewildered not having a clue ...Proud of been Irish and all anti Brit but yet sit around 365 days of the year speaking the queens english....

I wonder how the term 'queens English' originated, Mrs Saxe-Coburg Gotha surely didn't have English speaking antecedents and why should the language be linked to monarchy?

BoatMad · 02-01-2016 03:07AM

dd972 wrote: »

I wonder how the term 'queens English' originated, Mrs Saxe-Coburg Gotha surely didn't have English speaking antecedents and why should the language be linked to monarchy?

its convention , that all, the term is equally applied to " Oxford English", " BBC English" etc

Her origins have nothing to do with it.

purplepanda · 02-01-2016 05:42AM

masti123 wrote: »

Pádraig Pearse had a deep interest in the Irish Language and was involved in the Gaelic revival, I'm unsure about the rest of them.
Collins had some interesting views on the Irish language, this is what he wrote in his book:

I wonder what he'd make of Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language :rolleyes:

I'd wonder what his opinion would be of the Irish patriots over centuries, from Confederate Ireland to United Irishmen & beyond who spoke english as a first language?

In Wexford during the 1798 rising most United Irishmen were english speakers whilst the government militia were often gaelic speakers brought in from other counties to oppress & torture the locals.

When the population finally rebelled their are accounts of loyalist militia begging for their lives in irish to their captors who couldn't understand the language.

The People's Rising: Wexford, 1798 by Daniel Gahan describes such events.

When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?

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