When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?

Aongus Von Bismarck

I was in Galway over the Christmas and decided we'd go for a drink after having an extraordinary meal in Aniar. Walking in the door of Freeney's I heard two relatively young, if rather haggard looking, men chatting as gaeilge.

So it certainly is still spoken in Galway city and in the barrenlands of Connemara.

Malcolm600f

I love the Irish language even though I am not great at speaking it and even worse at writing it , but did learn quiet a bit while spending 7 yrs fishing in Galway..Nice been fit to speak my native language ,most people now speak english when they have to, but when in france , spain , germany in fact probaly 99% of the countries in the world they speak their own tongue .. Disgraceful as well that Irish people call it ****e and not worth learning,.

Dughorm

The combination of the introduction of a primary education system (the ‘National Schools’) in 1831, in which Irish was prohibited and only English taught by order of the British Government in Ireland, and the Great Famine (1845-1852), which hit an extremely high number of Irish language speakers (who lived in the poorer areas heavily hit by famine deaths and emigration), hastened its rapid decline. Irish political leaders, such as Daniel O’Connell (Dónall Ó Conaill), too were critical of the language, seeing it as ‘backward’, with English the language of the future. Children were not allowed to speak Irish and were severely beaten if they did so, as there was a stigma attached to it. English became the language which was associated with prosperity and employment.

OP, this link sums up the answer to your question I think. O'Connell was ultimately proven right in economic terms anyway!

http://www.lexiophiles.com/english/languages-spoken-in-ireland

The bit in bold is interesting - most cultural changes evolve over time - such a rapid decline indicates something extreme changed matters and people's outlook at the time.

Boom__Boom

The figure in the 2011 census for daily speakers outside the education system was 77,185.

scopper

Irish was the main tongue until roughly 1800 (that is being generous). It was superceded over the course of that century. Irish was not taught in schools (by diktat) and so drifted. By the time it came back to schools well I guess we'd lost of language skills.

Malcolm600f

Anyone thats wants to know if the Irish language is alive or dead goto Carraroe out in Connemara for a night and make up your own mind..

Caoimhgh1n

The last time I was in Dublin, I overheard three groups of people conversing in Irish.

josephryan1989

When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?
From the 12th century until the 16th century Ireland was only nominally ruled from England. This is because generations of French speaking Norman settlers became Irish through intermarriage with the Gaelic Irish and absorbed Irish customs, culture and language. By the 16th century the English decided to plant Ireland starting under the reign of Bloody Mary and later her sister Elizabeth I. In the 17th century James I planted Ulster and later Cromwell and later still William of Orange crushed all final Irish resistance to English rule. From 1700 to 1850 the native Gaelic Irish were reduced by penal laws and misrule of the Protestant rulers to the status of peasants who lived solely on potatoes. The Great Famine killed 1 million and 1 million emigrated and the population would continue to fall generation to generation until the 1960s. In the 1880s the Irish won the right to buy and own their land and by the early 20th century the wealthiest Catholic farmers were prospering by feeding the empire. The majority of the young left Ireland to make their living in America Britain or in the colonies. It made sense to abandon Irish. By the time Ireland became independent and in the decades since Irish has continued to decline. English is the predominant language of the internet global business and Irish communities worldwide.
Newcomers to Ireland speak English and there are more native Polish and native Chinese speakers in this country than native Gaelic speakers today.
Irish looks like it is going to be dead in a generation.
Borders change and populations change and political entities change too.
Languages transform also.
When Irish dies out the world will move on.

scopper

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The last time I was in Dublin, I overheard three groups of people conversing in Irish.

I've lived in Dublin 29 out of my 31 years and that's about the same number I've heard in my entire tim

Malcolm600f

Have to say I really love when i hear proud Irish knobhead's in a put shouting F the brits or up the ra or tiocfaidh ar la in their best spoken english .Then go over and say something in Irish and look at them stand there bewildered not having a clue ...Proud of been Irish and all anti Brit but yet sit around 365 days of the year speaking the queens english....

Dughorm

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Newcomers to Ireland speak English and there are more native Polish and native Chinese speakers in this country than native Gaelic speakers today.
Irish looks like it is going to be dead in a generation.

I wouldn't agree with this.... depending on your definition of dead!

It is already economically dead and has been for a very long time.

That said, there are plenty who use the language, be it a statistically small number of native speakers, or people, myself included, who are non-native but see the value in speaking it for fun or cultural reasons and this cohort is increasing!

byhookorbycrook

The Raptor wrote: »

What has all that done? Kids are still coming out of school unable to speak Irish fluently despite the increase of Irish speaking schools and colleges.

.

Our school is now attended by the children of past pupils , who are eager for their children to be given the chance they were to live the language. There are about 800 past pupils at this stage and it's like ripples in a pond.

ETA Irish colleges don't have to be just for 3 weeks, youth clubs like Club na bhFiann run all year round.

tayto lover

I stopped learning it after the first beating in Primary school. Bloody tenses.

mackerski

Malcolm600f wrote: »

I love the Irish language even though I am not great at speaking it and even worse at writing it , but did learn quiet a bit while spending 7 yrs fishing in Galway..Nice been fit to speak my native language ,most people now speak english when they have to, but when in france , spain , germany in fact probaly 99% of the countries in the world they speak their own tongue .. Disgraceful as well that Irish people call it ****e and not worth learning,.

You demonstrate a confusion as to the meaning of "native language" and "their own tongue". For most of us, that's English, and that's fine. I should no more be made to feel guilty for having English as my native language than a Connemara Irish speaker should be for speaking Irish. Languages are personal and we acquire them naturally - the moment you start a discussion about how to subvert this natural process you are playing God in a most unattractive fashion.

josephryan1989

Dughorm wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with this.... depending on your definition of dead!

It is already economically dead and has been for a very long time.

That said, there are plenty who use the language, be it a statistically small number of native speakers, or people, myself included, who are non-native but see the value in speaking it for fun or cultural reasons and this cohort are increasing!

Statistically the language has been in decline for hundreds of years and today English is spoken in everyday life by the overwhelming majority of people on this island. When a language is no longer spoken in daily conversation when education business and politics are predominantly conducted through English and the majority struggle to put even a sentence together then that language is well and truly dead.

Pretending it is the 1st language and teaching Irish to generations of school children who clearly have no interest in ever using it is quite frankly delusional.

We have a shortage of coders. We need to teach kids science and technology and business entrepreneurship rather than wasting their time on worthless relics of a bygone dead culture.

BoatMad

scopper wrote: »

Irish was the main tongue until roughly 1800 (that is being generous). It was superceded over the course of that century. Irish was not taught in schools (by diktat) and so drifted. By the time it came back to schools well I guess we'd lost of language skills.

Yet it was reintroduced into the national primary ciriculum under British rule

BoatMad

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Statistically the language has been in decline for hundreds of years and today English is spoken in everyday life by the overwhelming majority of people on this island. When a language is no longer spoken in daily conversation when education business and politics are predominantly conducted through English and the majority struggle to put even a sentence together then that language is well and truly dead.

Pretending it is the 1st language and teaching Irish to generations of school children who clearly have no interest in ever using it is quite frankly delusional.

Ah, yes , but we are one of the most delusional people on the planet. It suits us to believe things that are plainly not true

( see priests , bankers , corrupt politics etc )

mackerski

dd972 wrote: »

It's not as hard as you think, Belgians and Swiss people have the advantage of being in a multilingual state with constant exposure to the assorted media, signage etc,

This is mostly not true. In most of Belgium and Switzerland, there is one dominant language in a specific area. That language will be spoken in everyday life and will appear on signs, TV and all the usual places. Essentially, the state arranges its language policy around the languages people speak. Which is a refreshing approach and one we could indeed learn from in Ireland.

archer22

In the 1911 census for my great grandfathers farm, the occupants were him his daughter and granddaughter.Languages spoken are given as follows.
Grandfather = Irish only
Daughter= Irish and English.
Grand daughter = English only.
So I guess going on that example people began to be bilingual in the second half of the nineteenth century and to mostly English speaking by early twentieth century.

Dughorm

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Statistically the language has been in decline for hundreds of years and today English is spoken in everyday life by the overwhelming majority of people on this island. When a language is no longer spoken in daily conversation when education business and politics are predominantly conducted through English and the majority struggle to put even a sentence together then that language is well and truly dead.

As you say this has been the case for many years - so when you said Irish will be dead in a generation, what exactly did you mean?

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Pretending it is the 1st language and teaching Irish to generations of school children who clearly have no interest in ever using it is quite frankly delusional.

That's our policy as it stands - you don't like it there's a political system out there to get your voice heard!

If generations clearly had no interest in ever using it why do people in general say they want to speak it? Don't have a survey to hand to give you numbers on it but it's the general perception out there.

darkpagandeath

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Apart from the Irish language and its literature, what is unique to Irish culture?

In other words, what elements of Irish culture are not found anywhere else in the world except the Irish language?

Maybe you don't give a shít if the only element of Irish culture that keeps it unique disappears but I would consider it a great tragedy.

Hate to break it to you but Language is not a defining part of culture, Humans tend to communicate in the easiest way possible. Throughout history languages have changed yet culture remains. People used to speak Irish now they don't Irish culture remains.

josephryan1989

BoatMad wrote: »

Ah, yes , but we are one of the most delusional people on the planet. It suits us to believe things that are plainly not true

( see priests , bankers , corrupt politics etc )

We aren't the only delusional people.

Americans are gun crazy and support executions and jail people for decades for smoking pot.

The British still have a monarchy that is head of the Church of England.

China still is a one party state.

The Middle East is still raving about Islam.

Things could be worse!

Dughorm

josephryan1989 wrote: »

We have a shortage of coders. We need to teach kids science and technology and business entrepreneurship rather than wasting their time on worthless relics of a bygone dead culture.

I missed your ninja edit there! The two aren't mutually exclusive and we already do teach kids these subjects when they are about to make career choices. AFAIK there are science modules in the primary curriculum also.

Youre hardly blaming Irish, which to quote yourself, children "clearly have no interest in", for a lack of uptake in computer programming degrees/jobs?

BoatMad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but Language is not a defining part of culture, Humans tend to communicate in the easiest way possible. Throughout history languages have changed yet culture remains. People used to speak Irish now they don't Irish culture remains.

+1. , the so called revival of the Irish language has nothing to do with the populations desires , it was primarily seen after independence as a leg of establishing a rather mystical and largely non-existent " Gaelic " culture, such culture being defined as " not like the English " . Perhaps that is why many see the nonsense of the Irish language , an attempt to recreate an non existence culture , largely that didnt exist in the first place.

We have a complex culture largely as a result of various invasions and colonisations over the generations. The sooner we disconnect the notion of irishness from a particular language the better.

megafan

mackerski wrote: »

This is mostly not true. In most of Belgium and Switzerland, there is one dominant language in a specific area. That language will be spoken in everyday life and will appear on signs, TV and all the usual places. Essentially, the state arranges its language policy around the languages people speak. Which is a refreshing approach and one we could indeed learn from in Ireland.

Belgium politically is quite unstable & language is the divide... Flemish & French .... If there is a neutral language it's English!...

BoatMad

josephryan1989 wrote: »

We aren't the only delusional people.

Americans are gun crazy and support executions and jail people for decades for smoking pot.

The British still have a monarchy that is head of the Church of England.

China still is a one party state.

The Middle East is still raving about Islam.

Things could be worse!

You're right , we could be worrying about practical things in this country, but it's much handier to worry about insubstantial things.

darkpagandeath

BoatMad wrote: »

+1. , the so called revival of the Irish language has nothing to do with the populations desires , it was primarily seen after independence as a leg of establishing a rather mystical and largely non-existent " Gaelic " culture, such culture being defined as " not like the English " . Perhaps that is why many see the nonsense of the Irish language , an attempt to recreate an existence and culture , largely that didnt exist in the first place.

We have a complex culture largely as a result of various invasions and colinisatiobs over the generations. The sooner we disconnect the notion of irishness from a particular language the better.

Aye, It's like saying modern French people are completely culturally different to their past counterparts that spoke 100S of regional dialects. They invented modern French and are still culturally the same. Obviously culture can change but generally nothing to do with language.

mackerski

megafan wrote: »

Belgium politically is quite unstable & language is the divide... Flemish & French .... If there is a neutral language it's English!...

Don't forget German.

mackerski

BoatMad wrote: »

Yet it was reintroduced into the national primary ciriculum under British rule

Apparently to the detriment of other important stuff...

Dughorm

BoatMad wrote: »

+1. , the so called revival of the Irish language has nothing to do with the populations desires , it was primarily seen after independence as a leg of establishing a rather mystical and largely non-existent " Gaelic " culture, such culture being defined as " not like the English " . Perhaps that is why many see the nonsense of the Irish language , an attempt to recreate an existence and culture , largely that didnt exist in the first place.

We have a complex culture largely as a result of various invasions and colinisatiobs over the generations. The sooner we disconnect the notion of irishness from a particular language the better.

This is too strong - it's the equivalent of accusing the gothic revival in architecture of trying to create something that didn't previously exist!

There were cultural changes in the last 100 odd years that did succeed - why do we have Kilkenny hurlers instead of Kilkenny Cricketers?;)