When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?

Eugene Norman

con___manx1 wrote: »

I thought the Normans first language would have been French since they came from france.

The Normans started speaking Irish fairly quickly. By centuries I meant that English became established in what were previously Norman founder towns. These English speakers came after Norman the invasions but before the Protestant revolution and remained Catholic mostly. The old English they were called.

Eugene Norman

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Aye, It's like saying modern French people are completely culturally different to their past counterparts that spoke 100S of regional dialects. They invented modern French and are still culturally the same. Obviously culture can change but generally nothing to do with language.

Try getting a French man to agree with that.

darkpagandeath

Dughorm wrote: »

This is too strong - it's the equivalent of accusing the gothic revival in architecture of trying to create something that didn't previously exist!

There were cultural changes in the last 100 odd years that did succeed - why do we have Kilkenny hurlers instead of Kilkenny Cricketers?;)

There was no Celt genocide of existing people in Ireland. There was possibly small settlements. Celtic Irish people is a myth.

josephryan1989

Dughorm wrote: »

I missed your ninja edit there! The two aren't mutually exclusive and we already do teach kids these subjects when they are about to make career choices. AFAIK there are science modules in the primary curriculum also.

Youre hardly blaming Irish, which to quote yourself, children "clearly have no interest in", for a lack of uptake in computer programming degrees/jobs?

Apart from a job in the civil service (there has been a recruitment freeze for years now) what possible use is the Irish language in the employment market? Once I left my secondary school gate for the last time I have never spoken a word of the language and I have never once heard it spoken in conversation ever.

I know people who work in various civil service jobs and apart from their Irish oral exam that have never once spoken a word of Irish during the course of their working lives.

The only people who truly believe Irish is still the native language of Ireland are raving lunatics. It is never used in daily life by the overwhelming majority of the population.

Eugene Norman

BoatMad wrote: »

+1. , the so called revival of the Irish language has nothing to do with the populations desires , it was primarily seen after independence as a leg of establishing a rather mystical and largely non-existent " Gaelic " culture, such culture being defined as " not like the English " . Perhaps that is why many see the nonsense of the Irish language , an attempt to recreate an non existence culture , largely that didnt exist in the first place.

We have a complex culture largely as a result of various invasions and colonisations over the generations. The sooner we disconnect the notion of irishness from a particular language the better.

Nobody invented this culture. It clearly previously existed. Trying to recapture irelands past might have been folly, but it wasn't false.

Eugene Norman

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There was no Celt genocide of existing people in Ireland. There was possibly small settlements. Celtic Irish people is a myth.

What has that got to do with the Irish language? Or the post you were replying to?

darkpagandeath

Eugene Norman wrote: »

What has that got to do with the Irish language? Or the post you were replying to?

My experience of people who rave about the language also have this misty eyed notion of pale skinned red haired celts speaking Irish.

Unfortunately red hair came from Norway just like in Scotland.

josephryan1989

BoatMad wrote: »

You're right , we could be worrying about practical things in this country, but it's much handier to worry about insubstantial things.

Basically a bunch of hobbyists are dictating to everyone else.

Imagine if a bunch of trekkies seized power and insisted we become fluent in Klingon?

That is literally how mad the supremacist Gaelic movement is.

The totalitarianism of the Catholic Church is largely gone but a raving mad Gaelic ultra Irish nationalism persists.

FloatingVoter

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Apart from a job in the civil service (there has been a recruitment freeze for years now) what possible use is the Irish language in the employment market? Once I left my secondary school gate for the last time I have never spoken a word of the language and I have never once heard it spoken in conversation ever.

I know people who work in various civil service jobs and apart from their Irish oral exam that have never once spoken a word of Irish during the course of their working lives.

The only people who truly believe Irish is still the native language of Ireland are raving lunatics. It is never used in daily life by the overwhelming majority of the population.

You don't need Irish to work in the civil service (and the freeze is over). Check out publicjobs.ie if you don't believe me. Most emplyees can't speak it. There is a voluntary Irish oral to fill specific posts but that's all.
There used to be a compulsory Irish module to the job (used for promotion boards) but that was last heard of in the 1970s.
Some senior civil servants do tend to Irish-ise their names as they rise through the ranks. Serves no pupose other than singling them out as posers.

Dughorm

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Apart from a job in the civil service (there has been a recruitment freeze for years now) what possible use is the Irish language in the employment market?

Very little, I think I read somewhere this government removed the irish language exam for civil servants.

Edit: Yep - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/extra-marks-for-civil-service-exams-in-irish-abolished-1.1578466

It has been of very little use for employment for the vast majority of people for a very long time - it brings us back to the original question!

Dughorm

josephryan1989 wrote: »

a raving mad Gaelic ultra Irish nationalism persists.

Can you name one such person off the top of your head please?

josephryan1989

Dughorm wrote: »

Very little, I think I read somewhere this government removed the irish language exam for civil servants.

Edit: Yep - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/extra-marks-for-civil-service-exams-in-irish-abolished-1.1578466

It has been of very little use for employment for the vast majority of people for a very long time - it brings us back to the original question!

The Irish oral exam is voluntary however there is an unwritten rule that you will be dumped out a competition if you don't do the Irish exam.

josephryan1989

Dughorm wrote: »

Can you name one such person off the top of your head please?

There are libel laws in this country so I can't name specific people for obvious reasons.

byhookorbycrook

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Apart from a job in the civil service (there has been a recruitment freeze for years now) what possible use is the Irish language in the employment market? Once I left my secondary school gate for the last time I have never spoken a word of the language and I have never once heard it spoken in conversation ever.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
So we should only learn things that can be directly used for employment?So no PE if you want a clerical job ? No French unless you will use it in your job?No history??

Thankfully, we have a broad educational curriculum here. It usually helps to broaden minds...in most case

byhookorbycrook

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Irish oral exam is voluntary however there is an unwritten rule that you will be dumped out a competition if you don't do the Irish exam.

Really???You know this how??Because it smells of horse manure.

Dughorm

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Irish oral exam is voluntary however there is an unwritten rule that you will be dumped out a competition if you don't do the Irish exam.

josephryan1989 wrote: »

There are libel laws in this country so I can't name specific people for obvious reasons.

Oooohh.... this all sounds like a dastardly plot by one of these litigious "raving mad Gaelic Irish ultra nationalist" elites.... i'm intrigued.... tell me more!

josephryan1989

FloatingVoter wrote: »

You don't need Irish to work in the civil service (and the freeze is over). Check out publicjobs.ie if you don't believe me. Most emplyees can't speak it. There is a voluntary Irish oral to fill specific posts but that's all.
There used to be a compulsory Irish module to the job (used for promotion boards) but that was last heard of in the 1970s.
Some senior civil servants do tend to Irish-ise their names as they rise through the ranks. Serves no pupose other than singling them out as posers.

Application forms still ask if candidates can speak Irish. The hints are very clear that you need Irish to get a job in the public service.

Eugene Norman

Dughorm wrote: »

?

In no way is English one of the easiest languages to learn - it is a hodge-podge of several language families with countless exceptions to any grammatical "rules" in it!

I think you'll also find its only in Ireland and certain places in the UK that people are highly tolerant of spoken grammatical errors also! Grammar nazis on boards are like that in real life I bet too

It's very easy in terms of its tenses. Nor are the irregular verbs difficult to learn. Spelling is odd but that's it, and no – perfect English doesn't matter or very few non English speakers would he employed.

Malcolm600f

Funnily enough when people are looking for loop holes to get away with drink driving or similar they dont be long pointing out stuff not wrote in Irish..

Eugene Norman

darkpagandeath wrote: »

My experience of people who rave about the language also have this misty eyed notion of pale skinned red haired celts speaking Irish.

So a strawman.

Unfortunately red hair came from Norway just like in Scotland.

Almost everything you say is utter bollocks. There is big all genetic influence on Ireland from the Vikings and the Norwegians were flaxen haired.

Berserker

TallGlass wrote: »

My question is. How come the majority of Irish people cannot grasp a second language. I would love to speak Irish, German or French but I just can't do it. Is it because its just too easy most of the time other people speak English. I don't know but would love to speak another.

The prominence of English in the modern world is a problem without doubt. If French, for example, was the official language of business in the world, we would put a greater focus on learning a second language.

josephryan1989 wrote: »

We have a shortage of coders. We need to teach kids science and technology and business entrepreneurship rather than wasting their time on worthless relics of a bygone dead culture.

The skills required for that line of work are completely different. Those skills could be developed in junction with the skills needed to learn a second, third etc language. Sadly, no political party has the desire to allow any parent/child to choose the language they wish to learn from a young age. The desire to give people the chance to learn computer programming in school is non-existent also, which is remarkable when you consider how prominent the sector is here. I perform interviews for software engineering roles, at all levels, on a very regular basis and a significant percentage of candidates are not Irish.

josephryan1989

Dughorm wrote: »

Oooohh.... this all sounds like a dastardly plot by one of these litigious "raving mad Gaelic Irish ultra nationalist" elites.... i'm intrigued.... tell me more!

I know for a fact that well known cranks have been known to visit public buildings or make calls to deliberately speak in Irish to catch staff out and then make complaints to their superiors and to politicians and the press and got people in trouble.

LordSutch

masti123 wrote: »

Actually, in the 2011 census, 1.77 million people declared they could speak Irish.

And that statistic is part of the whole problem with Irish and trying to maintain it. There have been many discussions in the media about this mythical 1.77 million Irish speaking people, and it transpires that many of us/them can only speak the cupla focal, yet many people still ticked the (Yes I can speak Irish box) on the census form

So then you have to ask, in who's interest is it in to have a high proportion of Irish speakers ticked on the census form? and why do so many Irish people feel the need to tick it? and finally, what does "speaking Irish" actually mean?

Rhetorical questions.

LeinsterDub

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why would you learn a language with zero benefit. Those 50k people you can communicate with better be extremely interesting. And in before Language is culture … It's not.

It's a language you can use regularly (more so than French in Ireland for example) and knowing 2 languages makes the 3 a hell of a lot easier

Eugene Norman

FURET wrote: »

I'm from south Tipp and my fifth great grandfather (1725-1792) - who was a tenant farmer - had an anglicized name (minus the "O", which his grandson had reinstated by 1850). I've seen headstones from the late 1600s with anglicized Catholic Irish names as well.

The townland names and the names that are mentioned in the 1641 Depositions for my area in south Tipp are all anglicized as well and have not changed between then and now.

I'm a dub but one of my parents is from there. Anything I've read indicates that the around that era the larger towns were English speaking (and of English descent – Clonmel's Irishtown is outside the gates) the lowlands bilingual, and he mountainy men, from north Waterford really, were Irish speakers. Waterford surprisingly had a far number of Irish speakers.

Dughorm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's very easy in terms of its tenses. Nor are the irregular verbs difficult to learn. Spelling is odd but that's it, and no – perfect English doesn't matter or very few non English speakers would he employed.

I hear ya

Interesting website: http://reallifeglobal.com/is-english-easy-to-learn/

English is certainly easier to learn than Dublin if the Foil, Arms and Hog video is to be believed

Eugene Norman

LordSutch wrote: »

And that statistic is part of the whole problem with Irish and trying to maintain it. There have been many discussions in the media about this mythical 1.77 million Irish speaking people, and it transpires that many of us/them can only speak the cupla focal, yet many people still ticked the (Yes I can speak Irish box) on the census form

So then you have to ask, in who's interest is it in to have a high proportion of Irish speakers ticked on the census form? and why do so many Irish people feel the need to tick it? and finally, what does "speaking Irish" actually mean?

Rhetorical questions.

Apparantly they would like to see themselves are Irish speaking. The hostility to the language isn't as universal as you think.

This thread is not about that anyway. It's a discussion on when the language declined.

Dughorm

LordSutch wrote: »

And that statistic is part of the whole problem with Irish and trying to maintain it. There have been many discussions in the media about this mythical 1.77 million Irish speaking people, and it transpires that many of us/them can only speak the cupla focal, yet many people still ticked the (Yes I can speak Irish box) on the census form

So then you have to ask, in who's interest is it in to have a high proportion of Irish speakers ticked on the census form? and why do so many Irish people feel the need to tick it? and finally, what does "speaking Irish" actually mean?

Rhetorical questions.

All great questions! Some real answers to these and we might start to get a better handle on why we are where we are!

Dughorm

josephryan1989 wrote: »

I know for a fact that well known cranks have been known to visit public buildings or make calls to deliberately speak in Irish to catch staff out and then make complaints to their superiors and to politicians and the press and got people in trouble.

So we're talking about a few cranks! Didn't think cranks held the power in Ireland... although... thinking of the Joe Duffy show.... hmm....

FloatingVoter

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Application forms still ask if candidates can speak Irish. The hints are very clear that you need Irish to get a job in the public service.

They also ask if you have any disabilities and request a date of birth. My advice to any fluent Irish speakers would be tick no on that one. You run the risk otherwise of ending up in some call centre ghetto speaking to numpties who insist on ringing up government departments looking for something to give out about.
Both myself and the thousands of other civil servants need somewhere to transfer them to.