A question about America's gun culture

Billy86 · 29-12-2015 04:08PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

Someone throwing bricks/rocks can put you in grave danger.

So shoot them in the arm or leg, if you must. There is absolutely no need to shoot-to-kill someone in that situation. As the article says, US police kill nearly 200 times (per capita) the number of citizens as in England & Wales. There is no way to try and say that is anything but disturbing.

Billy86 · 29-12-2015 04:25PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

I doubt criminals would hand in their guns.

Australia's buyback policy after the Port Arthur shootings led to a 42% drop in homicide rates, and a 57% drop in suicide rates, within seven years of being implemented. The initial two years in which it was implemented saw the biggest drop in Australian homicide rates in over 80 years.

Much harsher sentencing for illegally owned and unregistered firearms would be a great start. And putting an end to those gun fairs where people can basically buy and sell guns without any background or licence checks whatsoever.

Potatoeman · 29-12-2015 04:35PM

Billy86 wrote: »

So shoot them in the arm or leg, if you must. There is absolutely no need to shoot-to-kill someone in that situation. As the article says, US police kill nearly 200 times (per capita) the number of citizens as in England & Wales. There is no way to try and say that is anything but disturbing.

England and Wales don't have the same crime or gun ownership levels. The center mass is the easiest target to hit. Leg and arm shots dont always effectivley disable the target. I'm not saying it the best course of action but there are reasons for it.

recipio · 29-12-2015 08:40PM

Who are we to interfere in another country's culture ? We should look to our own repressive laws where even airguns need a licence, the only EU country to do so.

Sheeps · 29-12-2015 08:43PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

I doubt criminals would hand in their guns.

All the more reason for everyone else to have guns.

Eugene Norman · 29-12-2015 08:49PM

I don't like America but more or less it's interference in other countries rather than its gun laws.

Maybe we should all have guns. Handy for a revolution.

newacc2015 · 29-12-2015 08:50PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Australia's buyback policy after the Port Arthur shootings led to a 42% drop in homicide rates, and a 57% drop in suicide rates, within seven years of being implemented. The initial two years in which it was implemented saw the biggest drop in Australian homicide rates in over 80 years.

Much harsher sentencing for illegally owned and unregistered firearms would be a great start. And putting an end to those gun fairs where people can basically buy and sell guns without any background or licence checks whatsoever.

IMO the calibre of criminal in America is very different to ones in Australia. I seriously doubt Australia has the gang culture which is extremely common in the likes of Chicago and LA. There isnt really a comparison between the US and Australia with guns.

How effective have harsh mandatory minimums been on drugs? Extremely ineffective and costly. Harsh sentencing will disproportionately affect minorities and only worsen the problem in the long run, as more people turn to gangs as their parents are in prison. A better long term solution would be ensuring low income individuals get into higher education and away from a life of crime. A lot of people are so poor, they would rather risk being killed or end up in prison than poor. If they had a viable opportunity in life, they probably wouldnt pick crime.

The whole background check as prevention is over rated. You can on the no fly list as a potential terrorist and you can still buy a gun!

Arbiter of Good Taste · 29-12-2015 08:51PM

recipio wrote: »

Who are we to interfere in another country's culture ? We should look to our own repressive laws where even airguns need a licence, the only EU country to do so.

While we are at it we should look at our obscene national relationship with alcohol

Victor · 29-12-2015 08:55PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

I doubt criminals would hand in their guns.

Not everyone who kills someone with a gun is a career criminal.

People are mostly killed by people they know - friends and family.

Sh1tbag OToole · 29-12-2015 08:57PM

I never liked the concept of ordinary folk having to 'give up their toys' because some eejit somewhere went on a shooting spree. Next up is motorbikes, cars, laser pointers, anything that could cause another person harm. Eventually we end up in this highly compartmentalised fluffy cotton-wool based world where nobody is allowed to do anything because think of the children. We spend enough time being punished for another's sins as it is.

steddyeddy · 29-12-2015 09:03PM

Lets be honest guys, excuses like:

We couldn't do that
Criminals wouldn't go for that
It would be unworkable

Are poor excuses. Let's be honest people who say that just are afraid of loosing their weapons. I get that guns can be fun if used for fun but I think that the risk outweighs the benefits. Nothing's unworkable. Do you realise people are working on curing cancer at the moment? People don't give up because something's hard.

As regards the political attainability of such a feat, it would undoubtably be a hard sell to the American public but then again so was teaching evolution in schools, the end of segregation laws and Obama care. Sometimes the public needs to be told what's good for it.

osarusan · 29-12-2015 09:16PM

recipio wrote: »

Who are we to interfere in another country's culture ?

It's ok, we won't actually be setting policy or making law in another country, just discussing the issue of gun violence.

recipio · 29-12-2015 09:48PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

While we are at it we should look at our obscene national relationship with alcohol

By all means look at it - not just jack up the price to suit the vintner's agenda.
A more liberal attitude to licencing where beer and food are served together is the sensible way to go imho.

Cienciano · 29-12-2015 09:52PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

How can they 'give up' the hundreds of millions of guns that are already owned privately? It won't happen

This. The horse has already bolted in regards to gun control in america. Every cop has to assume that everyone is armed, and every move the have to think they are possibly going for a gun. The country is fúcked up.
I'm interested in guns and love following /r/guns on reddit, but really glad we don't have a gun culture like some states here in ireland.

KingBrian2 · 29-12-2015 10:05PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Australia's buyback policy after the Port Arthur shootings led to a 42% drop in homicide rates, and a 57% drop in suicide rates, within seven years of being implemented. The initial two years in which it was implemented saw the biggest drop in Australian homicide rates in over 80 years.

Much harsher sentencing for illegally owned and unregistered firearms would be a great start. And putting an end to those gun fairs where people can basically buy and sell guns without any background or licence checks whatsoever.

American gun culture is interwoven into their society and myths. As far back as the first gun shot that started the war of independence guns and America go hand in hand. Sarah Palin was eulogising Davy Crocket and famous battles are lauded over in red states. America is such a harsh climate for most Arizonans, Texans, Californians and North Carolinians controlling gun sells would just irritate small business owners that depend on selling much needed ammo to millions of clients.

29-12-2015 11:55PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Every year in America there are mass shootings and hundreds of deaths a year from gun violence. Then there are countless debates on the role of gun culture in these deaths. My question is this: If giving up guns saved even ten lives a year would it not be worth it?

America would be among the youngest nation in the democratic countries in the world and the reason why was help by the gun, movies like How the West Was Won and Dances with Wolves among many would probably explain the true reason why, America still lives in that culture except now they have a fear if they change their second amendment they lose their country.

Billy86 · 30-12-2015 12:03AM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

American gun culture is interwoven into their society and myths. As far back as the first gun shot that started the war of independence guns and America go hand in hand. Sarah Palin was eulogising Davy Crocket and famous battles are lauded over in red states. America is such a harsh climate for most Arizonans, Texans, Californians and North Carolinians controlling gun sells would just irritate small business owners that depend on selling much needed ammo to millions of clients.

To be fair, this is Davy Crockett... and this is Ned Kelly.

Billy86 · 30-12-2015 12:03AM

newacc2015 wrote: »

IMO the calibre of criminal in America is very different to ones in Australia. I seriously doubt Australia has the gang culture which is extremely common in the likes of Chicago and LA. There isnt really a comparison between the US and Australia with guns.

How effective have harsh mandatory minimums been on drugs? Extremely ineffective and costly. Harsh sentencing will disproportionately affect minorities and only worsen the problem in the long run, as more people turn to gangs as their parents are in prison. A better long term solution would be ensuring low income individuals get into higher education and away from a life of crime. A lot of people are so poor, they would rather risk being killed or end up in prison than poor. If they had a viable opportunity in life, they probably wouldnt pick crime.

The whole background check as prevention is over rated. You can on the no fly list as a potential terrorist and you can still buy a gun!

I do fully agree with a lot of what you have said, and even moreso than strict laws it is hugely important to also put concerted efforts into societal upheaval in many respects. But being able to just waltz up to a gun show a few days after getting out for murder, repeated armed robberies, etc, and buy a rake of guns without even an attempt from them to check your background or ask if you even have a licence is a pretty scary thought.

Australia was traumatised by Port Arthur (people from Tassie don't even like talking about it almost 20 years later) and that made a huge difference. The social issues outside of guns in the US has led them to a point where the majority of people simply didn't give a sh*t about Sandy Hook, or any of the other shootings. And I agree that until they fix that, the place will continue to go further and further down the toilet in many regards.

mzungu · 30-12-2015 12:14AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Every year in America there are mass shootings and hundreds of deaths a year from gun violence. Then there are countless debates on the role of gun culture in these deaths. My question is this: If giving up guns saved even ten lives a year would it not be worth it?

If it saved one life it would be worth it. Part of the problem is the power of the lobbyists and the other is the general apathy for change among the public. Gun crime has become so commonplace now, people are used to it. Shootings will continue unfortunately. I doubt that any shooting spree can shock the nation now.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-12-2015 12:39AM

Del2005 wrote: »

Banning cars or smoking would save more lives. Neither of them have constitutional protection, especially in the USA, so could be easily banned. Would it not be worth it?

Guns kill roughly the same

Firearm homicides Number of deaths: 11,208
[URL="number as cars. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm"]Firearm suicides Number of deaths: 21,175[/URL]
and then add in the accidental deaths

Motor vehicle traffic deaths Number of deaths: 33,804

wakka12 · 30-12-2015 12:43AM

Whether its worth it or not is irrelevant as it will never change. If all the pictures of the cute little innocent Sandy Hook children who got gunned down at school didnt change the minds of the american population about gun control then I don't think there is anything that will

Capt'n Midnight · 30-12-2015 01:59AM

mzungu wrote: »

If it saved one life it would be worth it.

In 2013 there were 2,596,993 deaths in the USA.

To save lives you could ban cycle helmets for children unless they are actually in traffic or doing off-road downhill descents.

CINCLANTFLT · 30-12-2015 02:26AM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Something, something..Bear Arms!!

I should have the freedom to be able to defend myself from roaming bands of redcoats!

Victor · 30-12-2015 02:41AM

Kace Wailing Sprinter wrote: »

America would be among the youngest nation in the democratic countries in the world

Really?

30-12-2015 03:13AM

Victor wrote: »

Really?

No reality

Capt'n Midnight · 30-12-2015 12:44PM

Kace Wailing Sprinter wrote: »

America would be among the youngest nation in the democratic countries in the world and the reason why was help by the gun, movies like How the West Was Won and Dances with Wolves among many would probably explain the true reason why, America still lives in that culture except now they have a fear if they change their second amendment they lose their country.

By 1942 there were only a handful of democracies left. Pretty much down just some English speaking countries, Switzerland and Scandinavia.

The rest was various forms of dictatorships , colonies and kleptocracies without true democracy. eg. Mexico was under one party rule from 1929 to 2000m. Sweden's SAP was in power from 1932 to 1976. A lot of people were pleasantly surprised that we had peaceful transfer of power in 1932 and Dev didn't become a dictator. We did suspended a lot of freedoms during "the emergency".

All the other democracies are younger.
Technically France's Fifth Republic only goes back to 1958.

Gbear · 30-12-2015 01:07PM

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Is the kind of mantra the US has tended to go for.

"If it would save even ten lives" is the kind of utilitarianism one would expect the US to reject.

Granted, they've quite happily gone for that sort of waffle with regards to their anti-terrorism measures, as Komrade Bishop pointed out, but it's easier to pull the wool over people's eyes over some rights than others.

Regardless, while stricter gun laws might save some lives, that the stats are bloated mostly by inner city violence would indicate that the are bigger issues at play - inequality, poor education, other cultural problems (like the one that develops when you have too many poor, uneducated young men around with nothing to do all day except piss in each others cornflakes), the drug war and so on.

If you look at states like Vermont or that kind of thing the death toll from guns, while still higher than Europe, is nothing like the apparent epidemic in the country as a whole.

Mesrine65 · 30-12-2015 02:39PM

Why are we so pre-occupied with America's gun culture?

Their country, their legislation...their problem!

PS...I wouldn't give up my guns if the Irish government suddenly decided 'no firearms for civilians'.

Sh1tbag OToole · 30-12-2015 03:03PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Why are we so pre-occupied with America's gun culture?

Their country, their legislation...their problem!

PS...I wouldn't give up my guns if the Irish government suddenly decided 'no firearms for civilians'.

It makes no sense. Each time some fool in the states decides to empty the contents of an AR-15 on a bunch of school children there are calls to bring in laws in Ireland that would make farmers give up their single barrel shotguns

darkpagandeath · 30-12-2015 03:14PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Why are we so pre-occupied with America's gun culture?

Their country, their legislation...their problem!

PS...I wouldn't give up my guns if the Irish government suddenly decided 'no firearms for civilians'.

Yes you would that's what reasonable people do.... The Government makes laws citizens follow them. :pac:

A question about America's gun culture

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