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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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Comments

  • #212
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    For non-unique addresses, I do not believe it is possible to look up the Eircode, as the property must be identified on an Ordnance Survey map, and if you do not know the area (all you have is the person's names and address) then that is impossible. It is bad design as well as bad implementation. Unique addresses should have been sorted, or at least an implementation plan to do so.

    Leaving aside the issue of eliminating non-unique addresses, how does people not being able to identify properties in an area they don't know make a postcode badly designed?


  • #213
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Leaving aside the issue of eliminating non-unique addresses, how does people not being able to identify properties in an area they don't know make a postcode badly designed?

    The post code design does not allow any kind of lookup for non-unique addresses unless one knows its location on an ordnance survey map. That is bad design in my book.

    If I know someone lives in 23, the Avenue, Sometown, then I can get the Eircode from the finder - no problem. If I know Jim Murphy lives in Ballymorebeg, Ballygobackwards, I have no chance of getting the Eircode, but I can send him a letter asking him to send me his Eircode and being very certain that my letter will get to him without the Eircode. That is bad design, not just bad implementation.


  • #214
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The post code design does not allow any kind of lookup for non-unique addresses unless one knows its location on an ordnance survey map. That is bad design in my book.
    It seems like the only solution to that design requirement is to forget about postcodes altogether and give everyone unique addresses. A postcode design requirement that makes postcodes redundant?


  • #215
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    TheChizler wrote: »
    It seems like the only solution to that design requirement is to forget about postcodes altogether and give everyone unique addresses. A postcode design requirement that makes postcodes redundant?

    But sure the Eircodes are unique to each house anyway. I live in Donegal and have been able to match houses to Eircodes off the map.


  • #216
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    But sure the Eircodes are unique to each house anyway. I live in Donegal and have been able to match houses to Eircodes off the map.

    You can only match the property off the map if you already know where the property is on the map. If you only know the address, you cannot, but the postie can - but then he does not use Eircode.


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  • #217
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    You can only match the property off the map if you already know where the property is on the map. If you only know the address, you cannot, but the postie can - but then he does not use Eircode.

    The few people that definitely use Eircode are those that have to make the final delivery to the door. My postman looks up the Eircode on his own smart phone when he gets the none unique address senario. It seems that people in this position are keen to get their own mail and could be some of the few that are using eircodes. If the postman is using Eircode then I'm sure couriers in the same situation are using them.


  • #218
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The post code design does not allow any kind of lookup for non-unique addresses unless one knows its location on an ordnance survey map. That is bad design in my book.
    It's amazing how often this bizarre trope comes up: that the only way anyone in the world anyone ever discovers another person's postcode is through some convoluted database lookup process. You'd swear nobody ever told another person their postcode as part of their address in the history of the world ever.

    In the real world, people don't have to look up each other's postcodes. I know my brother's UK postcode, because when he moved into his house, he told me his address including his postcode. When Irish people get over their reluctance to accept that, y'know, we have postcodes now, we'll start telling each other what our address is, including the postcode, just like everybody in every other country does.

    I know that's a difficult concept for people to accept who think that Eircodes are somehow the worst thing that's ever happened ever, but the rest of us will just get on with it and use them, what with us being grownups and all.


  • #219
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's amazing how often this bizarre trope comes up: that the only way anyone in the world anyone ever discovers another person's postcode is through some convoluted database lookup process. You'd swear nobody ever told another person their postcode as part of their address in the history of the world ever.

    In the real world, people don't have to look up each other's postcodes. I know my brother's UK postcode, because when he moved into his house, he told me his address including his postcode. When Irish people get over their reluctance to accept that, y'know, we have postcodes now, we'll start telling each other what our address is, including the postcode, just like everybody in every other country does.

    I know that's a difficult concept for people to accept who think that Eircodes are somehow the worst thing that's ever happened ever, but the rest of us will just get on with it and use them, what with us being grownups and all.

    That is precisely my point. The only sure way to get an Eircode for someone who lives in a non-unique address is to write to them at that address and ask them to send it to you. The Eircode look up service cannot do it unless you can find the address on an OS map (which requires you to know where the address actually is).

    It is like trying to find someone's mobile number. There is no directory for mobiles.


  • #220
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I know that's a difficult concept for people to accept who think that Eircodes are somehow the worst thing that's ever happened ever, but the rest of us will just get on with it and use them, what with us being grownups and all.

    I don't think Eircodes are the worst thing ever - I do think they're a very poor implementation of a postcode system, which as we've seen cost more than double the budgeted amount, for fairly doubtful benefit.

    And as for using them, since for all the difference it makes to An Post you might as well be writing the 25th Psalm on a letter as an Eircode, I don't think I'll bother. Maybe that's childish of me . . .


  • #221
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    That is precisely my point. The only sure way to get an Eircode for someone who lives in a non-unique address is to write to them at that address and ask them to send it to you.
    Are you seriously, honestly, hand-on-heart telling me that you genuinely can't think of any way of asking someone for their Eircode other than to write them a letter?
    It is like trying to find someone's mobile number. There is no directory for mobiles.

    I guess that's why mobile phones never caught on.


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  • #222
    anothernight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    In the real world, people don't have to look up each other's postcodes. I know my brother's UK postcode, because when he moved into his house, he told me his address including his postcode. When Irish people get over their reluctance to accept that, y'know, we have postcodes now, we'll start telling each other what our address is, including the postcode, just like everybody in every other country does.

    ...which is why Eircode should've been made a compulsory part of the address, just as in other countries, and not an optional thing that must be looked up, making people see it as just extra effort for no benefit. Again, bad implementation.

    If Eircode was part of the address, I would guess most people would know their own Eircode off by heart by now. I've said it before and I'll said it again: to me, as a non-business user, having to look up my postcode is the same as having to look up my street name or my house number.

    Judging by the grand total of zero Eircodes I got when updating my Christmas address list this year (for Christmas cards, you see), I'm gonna take a guess that none of the people who got a Christmas card from me actually knows their own Eircode yet. Every time I've moved (outside of Ireland, and there's been a few times), it took me less than a day to know my postcode, because I had to know my own address to do pretty much anything. Making Eircode an optional parameter is what's making people take so long to know theirs. Bad design, bad implementation.


    I was really looking forward to having a proper postcode in Ireland, ever since I moved there back in 2004. Didn't happen while I was still there. It's downright shameful that it took so long to get one, at such a large expense, and yet it was so badly done.


  • #223
    anothernight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    My fiancé runs the IT delivery systems for a bunch of takeaways and food chains all over the country. Addresses are stored on each of the systems to make deliveries quicker for repeat customers. I asked him whether people are putting in their Eircodes. "No, not really. Why would they?" was the answer. Some of the systems don't even have Eircode slots in the new user pages because the businesses that commissioned the systems didn't want to have to pay for an update, since they saw no benefit.

    My fiancé says it makes no difference to the delivery drivers because Eircode doesn't work on their satnavs anyway.


  • #224
    blade1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    anothernight wrote: »
    My fiancé runs the IT delivery systems for a bunch of takeaways and food chains all over the country. Addresses are stored on each of the systems to make deliveries quicker for repeat customers. I asked him whether people are putting in their Eircodes. "No, not really. Why would they?" was the answer. Some of the systems don't even have Eircode slots in the new user pages because the businesses that commissioned the systems didn't want to have to pay for an update, since they saw no benefit.

    My fiancé says it makes no difference to the delivery drivers because Eircode doesn't work on their satnavs anyway.

    Anyone with a smart phone can just use that for the eircode.

    I got a delivery from Tesco's last week and even though I live 35 miles from where the driver came he found me because I provided my eircode which he told me he used.


  • #225
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    anothernight wrote: »
    ...which is why Eircode should've been made a compulsory part of the address, just as in other countries, and not an optional thing that must be looked up, making people see it as just extra effort for no benefit. Again, bad implementation.

    How do you make it compulsory? Bin all envelopes without one?


  • #226
    anothernight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    blade1 wrote: »
    Anyone with a smart phone can just use that for the eircode.

    I got a delivery from Tesco's last week and even though I live 35 miles from where the driver came he found me because I provided my eircode which he told me he used.

    I pointed that out to him and he said they don't do that because it doesn't save them any time, making it pointless. Bear in mind that these shops don't service a very large area so on the rare occasions that they need to get directions, using their sat nav with the long address is faster than opening a website on their phone and letting it redirect to google maps (as Eircode.ie does), especially when most customers aren't providing Eircodes anyway. (In the systems that do allow that option. As I mentioned, not all of them do as some of the businesses involved didn't want to pay for a system update that they deemed of no benefit to their business)


  • #227
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Are you seriously, honestly, hand-on-heart telling me that you genuinely can't think of any way of asking someone for their Eircode other than to write them a letter?

    If I have their non-unique address, the postal service delivers the letter. If I do not have their Eircode, the letter gets delivered anyway. If I have their phone number, I could call them and ask them for their Eircode but it would make no difference to the delivery of the letter so why would I do that?

    But what if I do not have their number? Well, I write to them in the certain knowledge that the letter will be delivered.

    But I only wanted to send them a Christmas Card - so why would I do any of that? Just send the card and leave it up to postie.

    But I am serious in that if you know someone's address but not the location of their property on an OS map then it is not possible to find their Eircode without asking them or writing to them. Perhaps someone could answer this.


  • #228
    blade1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If I have their non-unique address, the postal service delivers the letter. If I do not have their Eircode, the letter gets delivered anyway. If I have their phone number, I could call them and ask them for their Eircode but it would make no difference to the delivery of the letter so why would I do that?

    But what if I do not have their number? Well, I write to them in the certain knowledge that the letter will be delivered.

    But I only wanted to send them a Christmas Card - so why would I do any of that? Just send the card and leave it up to postie.

    But I am serious in that if you know someone's address but not the location of their property on an OS map then it is not possible to find their Eircode without asking them or writing to them. Perhaps someone could answer this.
    If I'm picking you up right, you can get someone's eircode by their address.


  • #229
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    blade1 wrote: »
    If I'm picking you up right, you can get someone's eircode by their address.

    Only by writing to them and asking for it.


  • #230
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Only by writing to them and asking for it.

    or phone them and ask

    or email them and ask

    you only have to ask it once, then you will know their Eircode for ever and ever and ever


    a bit like you do with mobile phone numbers
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    It is like trying to find someone's mobile number. There is no directory for mobiles.


  • #231
    blade1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    Just say your address is 17 Patrick Street Cork.
    Are ye saying I can't get the eircode for there without asking?


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  • #232
    MBSnr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    blade1 wrote: »
    Just say your address is 17 Patrick Street Cork.
    Are ye saying I can't get the eircode for there without asking?

    No. Any numbered addresses you can find out the Eircode via
    https://finder.eircode.ie/#/
    and now
    http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

    However I live in the townland Ballymiddleofnowhere in Mayo. What's my Eircode? Only Eircode and I know, unless I share it. Only those who know where my house is on an OSI map can look it up.

    I see what Sam is saying. There is an issue which won't go away unless Eircodes become more widely used (and supported on Google maps and Sat Navs) or we remove the non unique rural addresses, which can't help in looking up the Eircode. At present I use my Eircode but it's not much use giving it to anyone at present. They'd prefer I give directions over the phone...


  • #233
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TheChizler wrote: »
    How do you make it compulsory? Bin all envelopes without one?
    It's very simple to make its adoption widespread, whenever new customers sign up for anything that requires a name & address, just be sure to make providing the postcode mandatory as part of the registration process.

    The main reason users are slow to adopt the postcodes is simply down to businesses not being proactive in using them. Just because the systems are not currently in place to make full use of them, it shouldn't prevent organisations from adding the customer's postcodes to their records now, rather than trying to get them later.


  • #234
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    MBSnr wrote: »
    No. Any numbered addresses you can find out the Eircode via
    https://finder.eircode.ie/#/
    and now
    http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

    However I live in the townland Ballymiddleofnowhere in Mayo. What's my Eircode? Only Eircode and I know, unless I share it. Only those who know where my house is on an OSI map can look it up.

    I see what Sam is saying. There is an issue which won't go away unless Eircodes become more widely used (and supported on Google maps and Sat Navs) or we remove the non unique rural addresses, which can't help in looking up the Eircode. At present I use my Eircode but it's not much use giving it to anyone at present. They'd prefer I give directions over the phone...

    At last, someone who is not a blind fanboy of Eircode.

    If you have a non-unique address and you do not know where the property is on an OS map, it is not possible to find the Eircode except by asking the addressee - which is not much use if you do not know them.


  • #235
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    MBSnr wrote: »
    However I live in the townland Ballymiddleofnowhere in Mayo. What's my Eircode? Only Eircode and I know, unless I share it.

    Only those who know where my house is on an OSI map can look it up.
    ....

    and what reason would anyone who you have not shared your Eircode with need to send you something ?


  • #236
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    At last, someone who is not a blind fanboy of Eircode.

    If you have a non-unique address and you do not know where the property is on an OS map, it is not possible to find the Eircode except by asking the addressee - which is not much use if you do not know them.

    But why would you want to?

    If I want a delivery made to me at a non unique address with no excuses about not being able to find me I include my Eircode. If someone doesn't bother using their Eircode then that's their loss.


  • #237
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    At last, someone who is not a blind fanboy of Eircode....

    You could paste in your Eircode in your next post and someone could drive straight to your house.

    what more do you need ?


  • #238
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    I'm certainly not a fanboy of Eircode but now that every house has an Eircode (OK I bet their are still the odd exceptions) why not use it.

    Why not give An Post the finger by putting your Eircode on all your correspondence and see how long before they get the message rather than saying lets do the minimum necessary and not bother because someone else isn't bothering - there's an Irish motto in there somewhere.


  • #239
    blade1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    my3cents wrote: »
    I'm certainly not a fanboy of Eircode but now that every house has an Eircode (OK I bet their are still the odd exceptions) why not use it.

    Why not give An Post the finger by putting your Eircode on all your correspondence and see how long before they get the message rather than saying lets do the minimum necessary and not bother because someone else isn't bothering - there's an Irish motto in there somewhere.
    Just curious,
    What are the reasons you think an post need it for?


  • #240
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    my3cents wrote: »
    I'm certainly not a fanboy of Eircode but now that every house has an Eircode (OK I bet their are still the odd exceptions) why not use it.

    Why not give An Post the finger by putting your Eircode on all your correspondence and see how long before they get the message rather than saying lets do the minimum necessary and not bother because someone else isn't bothering - there's an Irish motto in there somewhere.
    And some people get very hostile towards foreigners who make up Irish jokes, while not realising that we hand it to them on a plate.:rolleyes:


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  • #241
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    blade1 wrote: »
    Just curious,
    What are the reasons you think an post need it for?
    From what I have been reading here and elsewhere, they'd rather not have it at all as it undermines their monopoly.


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