Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

mf240 · 09-12-2015 11:12AM

Nothing like the cow type debate to get lads rilled up.

I enjoy the banter.

mf240 · 09-12-2015 11:13AM

stanflt wrote: »

Lads give it a rest- both slides speak for them selves

The problem with humans is that we interpret things the way we want to

Stop fighting
It's Christmas after all- time for peace and goodwill

Its christmas every day in your world:D:D

mahoney_j · 09-12-2015 11:16AM

stanflt wrote: »

Lads give it a rest- both slides speak for them selves

The problem with humans is that we interpret things the way we want to

Stop fighting
It's Christmas after all- time for peace and goodwill

Yep agree not at conference so can't elaborate further but there appears to be a contradiction there .all this je and jex stuff been pumped out at various events needs to be scrutinised,everything needs to be questioned to find a balance for ones own farm .i see and hear a lot of lads following stuff dished out at these things fairly blindely and take it as given without stepping back and thinking things out as to how it will effect them long term

mahoney_j · 09-12-2015 11:18AM

mf240 wrote: »

Nothing like the cow type debate to get lads rilled up.

I enjoy the banter.

Sure I love them too ,puts down the day sure!!!!!,life would be boring if we all agreed or followed the same path

keep going · 09-12-2015 11:36AM

planning for a few extra calves next year and im thinking of throwin down wood mulch in the corner of a yard with a good slope away from it and putting 3 calf hutches with pens in front of them on it.it would hold somewhere between 24 and 30 calves and take alot of pressure off the houses.its convient to parlour and i have them already but use them when the calves go to grass normally.just wondering should i put all the heifer calves in there from the start
or should i move them there after a month.my preference is to start them there

Timmaay · 09-12-2015 12:35PM

Keep going I'd put the calves out from the start, just because I hate moving them around, huge disease risk! I kept all the calves in the same location until put out to grass (at I think 7 or 8weeks old) last year, haven't lost one calf aside from stillborn all year.

Anyways protein crashing through the ground here, back to 3.34 from close on 4 with all the spring milkers in. Still 60 milking and only 9 are autumn calving, rest late spring, so obviously the diet still not cutting it which is frustrating, they are getting at least 1/2 maize on a DM bases, most cows on 3.5kg nuts in the parlour. Dietary protein is probably still to low but the low bulk tank protein and milk urea more suggests lacking energy right?

Midfield9 · 09-12-2015 12:45PM

Whats your recent urea results like? Is it batch feeders you have. You using 20/24% nut?

whelan2 · 09-12-2015 12:45PM

Just let aa bull in with cows to clean up, 30 ai'd in 17 days. No estrumate etc just served as seen on heat. Will leave him in for 4 weeks and thats the autumn breeding done.

mahoney_j · 09-12-2015 12:51PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Keep going I'd put the calves out from the start, just because I hate moving them around, huge disease risk! I kept all the calves in the same location until put out to grass (at I think 7 or 8weeks old) last year, haven't lost one calf aside from stillborn all year.

Anyways protein crashing through the ground here, back to 3.34 from close on 4 with all the spring milkers in. Still 60 milking and only 9 are autumn calving, rest late spring, so obviously the diet still not cutting it which is frustrating, they are getting at least 1/2 maize on a DM bases, most cows on 3.5kg nuts in the parlour. Dietary protein is probably still to low but the low bulk tank protein and milk urea more suggests lacking energy right?

Both energy and protein lacking I'd say Tim ,surprising with maize in

stanflt · 09-12-2015 01:38PM

I feel I have missed out on the hols vs x bred debate

I for one love x breeds and the simplicity of the system which allows for more time off farm for family and social and sport-the only down side is that I would require more land

Don't get me wrong I love the Holstein cow 2

This is a heifer that will calve within 360days interval and is still pumping out 23litres- within 7 years I hope to have a herd of cows(250) better than her and it's down to genomics

Comments please

mahoney_j · 09-12-2015 02:00PM

stanflt wrote: »

I feel I have missed out on the hols vs x bred debate

I for one love x breeds and the simplicity of the system which allows for more time off farm for family and social and sport-the only down side is that I would require more land

Don't get me wrong I love the Holstein cow 2

This is a heifer that will calve within 360days interval and is still pumping out 23litres- within 7 years I hope to have a herd of cows(250) better than her and it's down to genomics

Comments please

Without been controversial why x breed when you have that??,super ainmal ,super genetics combined with an equally good nut behind the wheel !!!!,
I'm in same predicament but al level or 2 below you ,don't have the land base to simplify the system and x breed but luckily have the genetics to go route I've chosen

keep going · 09-12-2015 02:25PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Keep going I'd put the calves out from the start, just because I hate moving them around, huge disease risk! I kept all the calves in the same location until put out to grass (at I think 7 or 8weeks old) last year, haven't lost one calf aside from stillborn all year.

Anyways protein crashing through the ground here, back to 3.34 from close on 4 with all the spring milkers in. Still 60 milking and only 9 are autumn calving, rest late spring, so obviously the diet still not cutting it which is frustrating, they are getting at least 1/2 maize on a DM bases, most cows on 3.5kg nuts in the parlour. Dietary protein is probably still to low but the low bulk tank protein and milk urea more suggests lacking energy right?

thats the way im thinking,with this it will be possible to put calves into pen only once and not use it again at least this year anyway plus i wont have calves 8 weeks old sharing the same air space as young ones.it will be a leap of faith though tostart sticking my new born heifers outside in febuary.how good is the maize this year

mf240 · 09-12-2015 02:38PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Keep going I'd put the calves out from the start, just because I hate moving them around, huge disease risk! I kept all the calves in the same location until put out to grass (at I think 7 or 8weeks old) last year, haven't lost one calf aside from stillborn all year.

Anyways protein crashing through the ground here, back to 3.34 from close on 4 with all the spring milkers in. Still 60 milking and only 9 are autumn calving, rest late spring, so obviously the diet still not cutting it which is frustrating, they are getting at least 1/2 maize on a DM bases, most cows on 3.5kg nuts in the parlour. Dietary protein is probably still to low but the low bulk tank protein and milk urea more suggests lacking energy right?

Id say low protien in diet. Are there bits of maize grain passing undigested and are dungs very solid.

Milked out · 09-12-2015 02:44PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Keep going I'd put the calves out from the start, just because I hate moving them around, huge disease risk! I kept all the calves in the same location until put out to grass (at I think 7 or 8weeks old) last year, haven't lost one calf aside from stillborn all year.

Anyways protein crashing through the ground here, back to 3.34 from close on 4 with all the spring milkers in. Still 60 milking and only 9 are autumn calving, rest late spring, so obviously the diet still not cutting it which is frustrating, they are getting at least 1/2 maize on a DM bases, most cows on 3.5kg nuts in the parlour. Dietary protein is probably still to low but the low bulk tank protein and milk urea more suggests lacking energy right?

Are u in teagasc Timmaay? If do get your advisor out give him the silage and maize analysis and get him to do up a diet for you. If he can't there is surely a nutritionist in teagasc he can send it on to. Have u space to keep autumn calvers and high yielding late spring seperate in the shed? Could throw a mix of maize barley soya on top of the silage for them. What nut you feeding? How long are spring girls off grass? Have you just gone into a different batch of bales?

Timmaay · 09-12-2015 03:12PM

mf240 wrote: »

Id say low protien in diet. Are there bits of maize grain passing undigested and are dungs very solid.

Hmmm yep there is definitely some maize passing through undigested. Cows still on a 18% nut, most the herd on 3.5kg as I said, but I do actually give as many of the high yielding autumn calvers an extra pull, usually get 3 or 4 of them in the front of the 1st row so easy to give extra even with the batch feeders, the 2 highest yielding get drafted back around into the final row if they aren't part of the 1st group. Next load of nuts will be a 23%. However I thought low dietary P would more result in a lower milk volume, but low energy in the diet would cause the low milk P?

Timmaay · 09-12-2015 03:19PM

Milked out wrote: »

Are u in teagasc Timmaay? If do get your advisor out give him the silage and maize analysis and get him to do up a diet for you. If he can't there is surely a nutritionist in teagasc he can send it on to. Have u space to keep autumn calvers and high yielding late spring seperate in the shed? Could throw a mix of maize barley soya on top of the silage for them. What nut you feeding? How long are spring girls off grass? Have you just gone into a different batch of bales?

Working with a decent chap from my local mill, he tested the maize which is only 5.5%p, but he didn't test the silage (I assumed he would ugh). Separating the milkers isn't really an option, juggling the shed with drys also. However getting afew bags of soya and throwing it onto of the maize for all the milkers is an option, certainly until I get the 23% nut. On the bales, this isn't ideal but I'm rationing out what leafy bales I got, about 30 of them, and they get one every 2nd day at the sec to help boost the dietary protien, They have the bale finished in a few hrs then nothing until 2days later, should I be splitting the bale, athlo that's more messing 2bh.

I shoulda sold the 9 autumn calvers lol, and bought in some Feb heifers to replace them ha.

freedominacup · 09-12-2015 03:32PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Working with a decent chap from my local mill, he tested the maize which is only 5.5%p, but he didn't test the silage (I assumed he would ugh). Separating the milkers isn't really an option, juggling the shed with drys also. However getting afew bags of soya and throwing it onto of the maize for all the milkers is an option, certainly until I get the 23% nut. On the bales, this isn't ideal but I'm rationing out what leafy bales I got, about 30 of them, and they get one every 2nd day at the sec to help boost the dietary protien, They have the bale finished in a few hrs then nothing until 2days later, should I be splitting the bale, athlo that's more messing 2bh.

I shoulda sold the 9 autumn calvers lol, and bought in some Feb heifers to replace them ha.

Tim you're short of energy simple as. Your problem is probably in your grass silage. Pr here which I thought was poor is running just over 3.5 indoors full time for a month on grass silage only. Meal overall running around 4kg between fresh and spring calvers. 25% autumn calvers here.

Brown Podzol · 09-12-2015 03:57PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Keep going I'd put the calves out from the start, just because I hate moving them around, huge disease risk! I kept all the calves in the same location until put out to grass (at I think 7 or 8weeks old) last year, haven't lost one calf aside from stillborn all year.

Anyways protein crashing through the ground here, back to 3.34 from close on 4 with all the spring milkers in. Still 60 milking and only 9 are autumn calving, rest late spring, so obviously the diet still not cutting it which is frustrating, they are getting at least 1/2 maize on a DM bases, most cows on 3.5kg nuts in the parlour. Dietary protein is probably still to low but the low bulk tank protein and milk urea more suggests lacking energy right?

One sure sign of low protein in the diet is solid dungs but I'd suspect low energy is your problem. You could go to two thirds maize silage if you think the grass silage is your problem.

Milked out · 09-12-2015 04:00PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Working with a decent chap from my local mill, he tested the maize which is only 5.5%p, but he didn't test the silage (I assumed he would ugh). Separating the milkers isn't really an option, juggling the shed with drys also. However getting afew bags of soya and throwing it onto of the maize for all the milkers is an option, certainly until I get the 23% nut. On the bales, this isn't ideal but I'm rationing out what leafy bales I got, about 30 of them, and they get one every 2nd day at the sec to help boost the dietary protien, They have the bale finished in a few hrs then nothing until 2days later, should I be splitting the bale, athlo that's more messing 2bh.

I shoulda sold the 9 autumn calvers lol, and bought in some Feb heifers to replace them ha.

Get the silage tested would be a start anyway. P here in silage ranged from 9.2 to 18% with a diference of 2 in me also. Testing bales that look good here at the min but came from old grass so be interesting to see how they go. Last collection result here was 3.65p and 4.2 bf but had no spring girls dried so was about 25% aut calvers. Awaiting to see results of last collection here since 40 spring girls dried off will bring aut % up to 45% roughly. If the other silage your feeding is low in energy it may need something extra regardless of maize

Timmaay · 09-12-2015 04:20PM

OK useful suggestions, and agreed that the pit grass silage probably not up to scratch (it never tests well in protien, at a guess from most other late may 1st cuts near here it's about 69dmd.) Bumping up the maize will push it above 50% of the DM in the diet, is that not a rule of thumb limit? Alternative energy sources might be likes of beet, even potatoes maybe which can be sourced locally , however don't really have any way of feeding them. Just working out if all this helps get say 3l/day on the 40 cows I'll milk until end of Jan it will bring in maybe 2kl in extra milk sales, I might not be long spending a decent chunk of that out again in feed 2bh.

whelan2 · 09-12-2015 04:21PM

whats your milk urea?

Brown Podzol · 09-12-2015 04:27PM

Timmaay wrote: »

OK useful suggestions, and agreed that the pit grass silage probably not up to scratch (it never tests well in protien, at a guess from most other late may 1st cuts near here it's about 69dmd.) Bumping up the maize will push it above 50% of the DM in the diet, is that not a rule of thumb limit? Alternative energy sources might be likes of beet, even potatoes maybe which can be sourced locally , however don't really have any way of feeding them. Just working out if all this helps get say 3l/day on the 40 cows I'll milk until end of Jan it will bring in maybe 2kl in extra milk sales, I might not be long spending a decent chunk of that out again in feed 2bh.

Bit of reading here but it details maize silage trials carried out by Teagasc on dairy cows at various inclusions.

http://www.teagasc.ie/research/reports/dairyproduction/4184-1/eopr-4184-1.pdf

C0N0R · 09-12-2015 04:28PM

What's your bf? I was always taught if you divide your pr by your bf and if you get under .8 your lacking energy in the diet.

Timmaay · 09-12-2015 04:45PM

Bf steady around 4.3, urea hovering at 14/15.

Greengrass1 · 09-12-2015 04:53PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

Without been controversial why x breed when you have that??,super ainmal ,super genetics combined with an equally good nut behind the wheel !!!!,
I'm in same predicament but al level or 2 below you ,don't have the land base to simplify the system and x breed but luckily have the genetics to go route I've chosen

She is prob getting near 1500 kgs nuts Stan?
You could get 2 xbreds yielding 450 kgs ms each and feed 500 kgs each.

Less vulnerable system imo. That cow must eat 22/23 kgs dm at peak? Where a xbred will be 17/18 kgs ms.

mahoney_j · 09-12-2015 05:07PM

Greengrass1 wrote: »

She is prob getting near 1500 kgs nuts Stan?
You could get 2 xbreds yielding 450 kgs ms each and feed 500 kgs each.

Less vulnerable system imo. That cow must eat 22/23 kgs dm at peak? Where a xbred will be 17/18 kgs ms.

But then you've 2 cows instead of one eating 36/40 kg fm grass and realistically 800 kg plus meal each = 1600 kg meal .heifer wouldn't fetch stans 2 k at sale time and bull calf wouldn't command same chance of been Ai standard

RobertKK · 09-12-2015 05:20PM

€1350 for every dairy farmer, extra €800 if a young farmer, will be paid in the new year.

Timmaay · 09-12-2015 06:13PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

But then you've 2 cows instead of one eating 36/40 kg fm grass and realistically 800 kg plus meal each = 1600 kg meal .heifer wouldn't fetch stans 2 k at sale time and bull calf wouldn't command same chance of been Ai standard

It's not about the fact that a HO will do say a 3rd more output, it's about how much profit the cow will leave at the end of the year. Also sales of heifers/AI or breeding bulls let's face it is a limited market, Stan is in the top 1% in terms of many elements with a fantastic herd of cows behind him, I'd consider myself not the worst nut behind the wheel here on our farm, and everything tells me that using JE will help hugely speed up the transition from what was an AYR calving herd of HOs with average solids and very average output to a compact calving spring herd with good solids and in a simple system that doesn't require a huge amount of meal etc. I for one am very happy that the option of JE is there, and has been well proven in an Irish setup, and that reasonable research has been done on it. Like all research there will be an element of bias towards it, but it's up to me to pick and choose what I want to take from it. What I think will be the ideal cow for me will be a 1/4 JE 3/4s HO, decent boost in durability and solids from the JE, while retaining the milk, size and beef of the HO. That's what I'm trying to bred in here for now.

WheatenBriar · 09-12-2015 06:21PM

RobertKK wrote: »

€1350 for every dairy farmer, extra €800 if a young farmer, will be paid in the new year.

Who sent that text?

stanflt · 09-12-2015 06:23PM

Greengrass1 wrote: »

She is prob getting near 1500 kgs nuts Stan?
You could get 2 xbreds yielding 450 kgs ms each and feed 500 kgs each.

Less vulnerable system imo. That cow must eat 22/23 kgs dm at peak? Where a xbred will be 17/18 kgs ms.

1180kg meal