Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

gandalf · 24-11-2015 03:14PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I think it's fairly obvious that they knew it was a Russian jet. They have warned them in the past week, Russia didn't heed, and now they shot one down.
I doubt even Turkey will pretend they thought it was someone elses jet.

No it could have been a Syrian Regime jet as well. They could have assumed it was a Russian jet but everyone knows that assumptions are the mother of all ****ups!

I reckon the Russians assumed that Turkey wouldn't shoot down one of their planes....

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 03:15PM

keithclancy wrote: »

Doesn't work like that, it's RADAR not GPS, they only get an indication of it's course and bearing with each radar sweep.

All they knew was it was heading for Turkish Airspace and then was in Turkish airspace after repeated warnings.

Also there was no way to tell what nationality the Aircraft was as they don't have Transponders that are turned on so how could you declare war on a country if you had no clue what country the plane was from.

Already happened with Syrian Jets.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-syria-crisis-airplane-idUSBREA2M09X20140324

No nation behaves in this way, what happens if a NATO jet flys over Russian territory? They are escorted out, same thing happens all over the world, you dont just shoot first and ask questions later. Also, they shot it down over Syrian Territory, not Turkish, so the whole "territorial integrity defense doesnt wash.

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 03:16PM

Royal Irish wrote: »

A video has already shown up online showing one of the pilots dead. If the other one is in "moderate" rebels hands the world will finally get to see how moderate they really are.

Listen, if some foreign airforce was bombing you while yer fighting a civil war(all the while claiming to be targeting a different force) and one of these pilots drop into your lap, how moderate would you expect your forces to greet him?

They are moderate compared to assads regime in they eyes of the West who "back" them, that frankly means **** all. Civil wars are by their nature brutally bloody and divisive. Two Russian pilots get killed compared to how many Syrians? Rebels(whom they claim not to target, they're allegdy going for isis) and innocent civilians who nearly always suffer most) It's very naive to expect much respect for the Geneva convention and the like in this situation. It's a dirty, brutal conflict, unfortunately with no much hope of it ending anytime soon.

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 03:18PM

gandalf wrote: »

No it could have been a Syrian Regime jet as well. They could have assumed it was a Russian jet but everyone knows that assumptions are the mother of all ****ups!

I reckon the Russians assumed that Turkey wouldn't shoot down one of their planes....

Agreed that the Russians are surprised by it, but I think the Turks are a little more sophisticated than to just spot that jet as it flew by their window. I would be surprised if they aren't tracking all aircraft in the region from a long way off. Meaning they knew exactly where this jet took off from.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 03:19PM

Yakkyda wrote: »

Listen, if some foreign airforce was bombing you while yer fighting a civil war(all the while claiming to be targeting a different force) and one of these pilots drop into your lap, how moderate would you expect your forces to greet him?

They are moderate compared to assads regime in they eyes of the West who "back" them, that frankly means **** all. Civil wars are by their nature brutally bloody and divisive. Two Russian pilots get killed compared to how many Syrians? Rebels(whom they claim not to target, they're allegdy going for isis) and innocent civilians who nearly always suffer most) It's very naive to expect much respect for the Geneva convention and the like in this situation. It's a dirty, brutal conflict, unfortunately with no much hope of it ending anytime soon.

The "rebels" are all Islamist scum at this point, lets not pretend this is a civil war. Its Islamism backed by the Gulf states and the US/Turkey vs Assad/Russia.

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 03:22PM

keithclancy wrote: »

Explain how please.

I have a free app on my phone called planefinder, it identifies all the planes flying around the skies near me.

I suspect the Turkish airforce, which is no small outfit, has a much better app.

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 03:24PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

No nation behaves in this way, what happens if a NATO jet flys over Russian territory? They are escorted out, same thing happens all over the world, you dont just shoot first and ask questions later. Also, they shot it down over Syrian Territory, not Turkish, so the whole "territorial integrity defense doesnt wash.

Ugh ... Syria ???

http://www.timesofisrael.com/sources-russia-helped-shoot-down-turkish-plane/

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I have a free app on my phone called planefinder, it identifies all the planes flying around the skies near me.

I suspect the Turkish airforce, which is no small outfit, has a much better app.

Nice one, and if you had any clue how that data is gathered you would have seen the Dutch Military plane disappearing when it turned off its transponder after taking off from Eindhoven Military base to go pickup bodies in Ukraine.

Without a transponder you can only guess what it is by guess it's speed etc, you have no idea who it is unless they identify themselves or you get close enough for visual identification.

jmayo · 24-11-2015 03:25PM

StudentDad wrote: »

Okay, you seem to have a bit of an axe to grind on this one. That aside, whether you like it or not, Syria is in Turkeys back yard and they are acting as they see fit. You don't have to like the way they are playing the game. The bald truth is that they are acting in their best interests. If it isn't in their interest to support the US or any other foreign power that is their choice. We don't have to live there, they do. As regards Russia sticking their oar in. They are in Syria at the request of the govt. of Syria, for good or ill. Again this is just background stuff, it provides a context. Brutal and inhuman context but that's war.

At the end of the day, Russian war planes engaged in conflict in Syria wandered into the sovereign airspace of Turkey, failed to heed warnings given and were shot down. Was it a good idea? That remains to be seen. Were they within their rights? It would appear so.

SD

My axe grinding is about the fact that you tried to play this down as result of fact Russia is stirring up a hornets nest in Turkey's backyard.

I am trying to make sure people really know the sh** that Turkey has been up to.

In fact I forgot to say that they have been bombing Kurds who are the ones really fighting ISIS.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/turkey-attacks-kurdish-fighters-syria-151027082432729.html

They may be acting in their interests, but that is not really in the interest of the rest of us.
In fact they are allowing refugees flood across into Greece.
And some of those refugees can include returning ISIS members.

By all accounts one of the reasons the Turks have been getting uppidty about the Russians is that the Russians have been bombing Turkmen rebels in Syria.

The real interesting thing is what happens the next time a Turkish aircraft tries to bomb a Kurdish position.
Expect either a few ground to air missiles or a missile from a Mig or Sukhoi to go up it's ass.

gandalf · 24-11-2015 03:27PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I have a free app on my phone called planefinder, it identifies all the planes flying around the skies near me.

I suspect the Turkish airforce, which is no small outfit, has a much better app.

Yeah it uses the transponder information from the planes. It's useless if the transponder is turned off which it would be on military planes on a bombing mission.

24-11-2015 03:28PM

Putin has spoken out. Wouldn't often agree with him but he's hit the nail on the head.

This event is beyond the normal framework of fighting against terrorism. Of course our military is doing heroic work against terrorism... But the loss today is a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way. Our aircraft was downed over the territory of Syria, using air-to-air missile from a Turkish F-16. It fell on the Syrian territory 4km from Turkey.

Neither our pilots nor our jet threatened the territory of Turkey. This is obvious. They are fighting terrorists in the northern areas around Latakia, where militants are located, mainly people who originated in Russia, and they were pursuing their direct duty, to make sure these people do not return to Russia. These are people who are clearly international terrorists.
Taking into account that we signed an agreement on deconflicting with the US, and as we know Turkey was among the ones that has joined the US coalition. Since Isis has such huge resources of hundreds of millions and billions of dollars coming from illicit oil sales, and they are protected by the armed forces of other states, then it’s clear why they are so brazen, why they are killing people, why they are carrying out terrorist attacks throughout the world including in the heart of Europe.

We will analyse everything, and today’s tragic event will have significant consequences, including for Russia-Turkish relations. We have always treated Turkey as a friendly state. I don’t know who was interested in what happened today, certainly not us. And instead of immediately getting in contact with us, as far as we know, the Turkish side immediately turned to their partners from Nato to discuss this incident, as if we shot down their plane and not they ours.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates?CMP=twt_gu):

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-11-2015 03:29PM

bear1 wrote: »

this type of joke has been done to death at this stage.

Or has it just flown the coop?

/ gets coat

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 03:29PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7343nXyGS0s

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 03:30PM

keithclancy wrote: »

Ugh ... Syria ???

http://www.timesofisrael.com/sources-russia-helped-shoot-down-turkish-plane/

Nice one, and if you had any clue how that data is gathered you would have seen the Dutch Military plane disappearing when it turned off its transponder after taking off from Eindhoven Military base to go pickup bodies in Ukraine.

Without a transponder you can only guess what it is by guess it's speed etc, you have no idea who it is unless they identify themselves or you get close enough for visual identification.

Do you seriously believe that military-grade scanning stations are blind regarding the identity of an aircraft until it identifies itself?

gandalf · 24-11-2015 03:31PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that military-grade scanning stations are blind regarding the identity of an aircraft until it identifies itself?

Can you show they can?

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 03:32PM

gandalf wrote: »

Can you show they can?

Who do you think I am, Edward Snowden?

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 03:34PM

keithclancy wrote: »

Ugh ... Syria ???

http://www.timesofisrael.com/sources-russia-helped-shoot-down-turkish-plane/

Nice one, and if you had any clue how that data is gathered you would have seen the Dutch Military plane disappearing when it turned off its transponder after taking off from Eindhoven Military base to go pickup bodies in Ukraine.

Without a transponder you can only guess what it is by guess it's speed etc, you have no idea who it is unless they identify themselves or you get close enough for visual identification.

It crossed into Turkey for less then ten seconds, that is the issue, it wasnt doing loops in Turkey airspace, it briefly entered a piece of Turkey that juts into Syria, obviously being tracked the whole time(otherwise the Turks wouldnt have hit it) and then was shot down 3km later over Syria by a Turkish jet in Syria.

gandalf · 24-11-2015 03:34PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Who do you think I am, Edward Snowden?

Your stating it like it's a fact so I assume that you know what you are talking about?

Or are you plucking that statement from the ether?

In other news I see the Telegraph are reporting that both pilots have been killed by Turkman rebels.

jmayo · 24-11-2015 03:35PM

This is supposed plot of Russian aircraft in red.

http://s30.postimg.org/7100m3p2p/turkey.jpg

This was a very stupid move by Turkey because there is no way in hell the incursion was anywhere near minutes unless the Russians have suddenly managed to get Su-24s Fencers to fly the cobra like their bigger brothers the SU-27 and SU-35 flankers.

It was probably only in Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds maybe 30 at most.

bear1 · 24-11-2015 03:36PM

They should establish a buffer zone along the border so that this doesn't happen again, where both armies announce that they may stray into either airspace for a brief moment in time.
Could be an idea?
It would also be interesting to see if Turkish jets crossed into Syria after the Russian jet.. doubt it though.

Wurzelbert · 24-11-2015 03:36PM

could it be the turks are just a tad too trigger happy here? wouldn’t warning them off be a better solution? after all the russians are not out to bomb turkey…though i reckon intercepting those russian jets that stray into turkish airspace (if that’s what happened) and escorting them out may well be beyond the turkish airforce’s capabilities…

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 03:36PM

gandalf wrote: »

Your stating it like it's a fact so I assume that you know what you are talking about?

Here we agree again. Your assumption is correct.:)

gandalf · 24-11-2015 03:37PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Here we agree again. You're assumption is correct.:)

Well then back it up Sherlock

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 03:37PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

by a Turkish jet in Syria.

Do you have anything on that?

I've read that weapons release was from within Turkey.

jmayo · 24-11-2015 03:43PM

I would bet the ones that will gain most from this in short term are Kurds who may suddenly find a benefactor has dropped them a load of surface to air missiles.

Putin is not stupid.
He may not do anything rash right now, but he will get even.

In fact he seems to be playing this as we are the victims of Turkey who are backing terrorists.
And who know what he is kinda of on the money.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 03:43PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Do you have anything on that?

I've read that weapons release was from within Turkey.

Ah, its unverified in retrospect, read it on zero hedge and twitter at lunch

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 03:44PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

It crossed into Turkey for less then ten seconds, that is the issue, it wasnt doing loops in Turkey airspace, it briefly entered a piece of Turkey that juts into Syria, obviously being tracked the whole time(otherwise the Turks wouldnt have hit it) and then was shot down 3km later over Syria by a Turkish jet in Syria.

Turkey have extended their airspace 5 miles into Syria in 2012 with NATO backing, Russia is aware of this too, think of it as a buffer zone.

So if it's true that the plane was in that area or even in actual Turkish airspace, didn't respond to warnings then Turkey was technically allowed to shoot it down, even if it may be a bit extreme.

But Turkey has warned Russia (and Syria) on several occassions not to take the piss by trying to enter their airspace and that if it happens they will respond with force (they have already downed several Syrian aircrafts down the years after a Turkish jet was shot down by Syrians a few years back).

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 03:45PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

read it on zero hedge

You mean, Tyler Durden may have been incorrect! :eek:

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 03:45PM

gandalf wrote: »

Well then back it up Sherlock

I haven't the time at the moment. You're a Wizard, look it up.

And while I have you here, any chance you could get a gang together to sort out the dark shadow that's forming in the East?

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 03:47PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Turkey have extended their airspace 5 miles into Syria in 2012 with NATO backing, Russia is aware of this too, think of it as a buffer zone.

So if it's true that the plane was in that area or even in actual Turkish airspace, didn't respond to warnings then Turkey was technically allowed to shoot it down, even if it may be a bit extreme.

But Turkey has warned Russia (and Syria) on several occassions not to take the piss by trying to enter their airspace and that if it happens they will respond with force (they have already downed several Syrian aircrafts down the years after a Turkish jet was shot down by Syrians a few years back).

^the US(and allies) and Russia also signed a memorandum to stop air to air "incidents" from happening this year. So Turkey can claim a five mile buffer zone in syria from 2012 all they want, its irrelevant.

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 03:49PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that military-grade scanning stations are blind regarding the identity of an aircraft until it identifies itself?

Scottie ... Sensors on full sweep....

Captain .. I'm picking up traces of Vodka and Russian... must be Ruskies ...

No, if you don't broadcast anything then you're just a flying object in the air.

Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

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