Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Somewhat recently, IS had attacked Assad's forces when Assad launched the Aleppo offensive, though Russian airpower and Assad's forces eventually forced them back and retook control of a highway.

I shouldn't laugh but that is such a brilliantly succinct comment.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Which is why my place of work in London used to be full of second generation Muslims hiding from their mammies while they had a cigarette, a sandwich and a cup of coffee at lunchtime during Ramadam - these were adults not kids.

TBH - they were not dissimilar to the Irish 'Catholics' who used contraception, only went to Mass when the Mammy was visiting and made a big dealt about giving something up for Lent but ate meat on Good Friday.

Both groups responded the same when asked why they went through this pretense of following 'their' religion 'Mammy would kill me and it's not worth the hassle sure what harm like.'

I never suggested they are 100% Islamic drones. but by definition you met the ones that are cultural Muslims, the ones that are devout werent having that smoke.

silverharp wrote: »

I never suggested they are 100% Islamic drones. but by definition you met the ones that are cultural Muslims, the ones that are devout werent having that smoke.

I met them too. I was a Community Worker in the East End of London so I met all types and I was very much struck by the fact that 2nd generation Muslims were very like second generation Irish Catholics - the more traditional their family combined with proximity of said family the more likely they were to be (outwardly) observant.

You did make a generalisation about Muslims and I merely said that was not my experience of living and working in a community that contained a lot of Muslims. Most of the Muslims I met were less than strict, same as the Jews and Catholics. A la Carte applied to them too.
As far as 'nationality' went the most observant Roman Catholics I met were Jamaican. While for Muslims it was Bengalis.

I did find that when the mother was a house wife and the family less affluent the more conservative they tended to be - that went for Irish Catholics too.

I also found there were huge cultural difference between the various nationalities who were Muslim - Turkish women rarely covered their heads, Pakistani women tended to just do the headscarf, Moroccan women wore the hajib as did Indonesian, Bengali women wore traditional Sari with hajib but to see the full kit burqua was rare unless one went up the West End where Saudi women staying in 5* hotels and shopping in Harrods were found.
East End Muslim women tend to work outside the home - hard to do that in a fill kit Burqua.

My point is that a lot of what we think of as 'Muslim' is actually cultural - there is, for example, a world of difference between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia when it comes to the status of women. The Saudis would have more in common with Hasidim Jews than Turks when it comes to how women are viewed and this makes a nonsense of saying all 'Muslims do/don't x,y,z' because they are as broad a collection of people culturally speaking as Roman Catholics.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Who began 'patrolling' first is like asking was it chicken or egg first. But, I would say 'Paki Bashing' began long before any 'Sharia Patrols' so it could be argued they grew out of a response to racially motivated attacks.

Well, not really, because they had nothing to do with Pakistani people who at last count made up only 1% of the population of a borough which is overwhelmingly Bangladeshi. There are literally more Irish people in the East End than Pakistani. They seemed pretty motivated by the Sharia thing, they were fairly clear on that principle.

Oh, I meant to add; I don't doubt what you say about 'cultural muslims', not at all. However personally I noticed a surprising trend in the opposite direction among a lot of the younger generation - traditional dress, hardline islamic views and vocal with it.

DubVelo wrote: »

Well, not really, because they had nothing to do with Pakistani people who at last count made up only 1% of the population of a borough which is overwhelmingly Bangladeshi. There are literally more Irish people in the East End than Pakistani. They seemed pretty motivated by the Sharia thing, they were fairly clear on that principle.

Oh, I meant to add; I don't doubt what you say about 'cultural muslims', not at all. However personally I noticed a surprising trend in the opposite direction among a lot of the younger generation - traditional dress, hardline islamic views and vocal with it.

Until 1971 Bangladesh was East Pakistan. From the 1950s there was a growing 'Bangladeshi' (who were officially Pakistani) community in the Brick Lane/Commercial Rd area of Whitechapel. This is when the term 'Paki bashing' was coined by racists who were not interested in the geo-political dynamics on the Indian sub-continent but were perfectly happy to label anyone who looked like they came from the region a 'paki' and beat the living daylights out of them.

You see that 'traditional' thing among other immigrant groups too - including the Irish - look at Shane McGowan and his whole Oirish schtick. You don't notice the amount who have integrated because they have integrated as so look just like 'everyone' else.