Why should a man offer a seat to a woman on train/bus?

colossus-x · 21-11-2015 02:20PM

The question is why would and able bodied man give up a seat to an able bodied woman. An example of that might me a 40yo 20 a day overweight smoker male and a 30yo marathon runner female.

So there's noting wrong with it per se. Scenario: 40yo chef on his feet for 10 hours without a break at work plonks his weary ass down - bus fills up, lady on her way home too after having lunch with a friend - left standing. The OP hops on and feels 'irked' as he put it at that inconsiderate male not giving up his seat and thus thinks badly of the male. If I was the chef and could read the OP's mind I'd be seriously pissed off.

I think the reason some men do it for that momentary sense of perceived respect they get from the female and the many onlookers. The cost for that feeling is just to stand for a while so the cost is low. If the same person were on a packed train journey from Dublin to Cork on a Friday evening would he give up his seat to a female standing between the carriages? I doubt it - because the cost to him is high and the payoff is low in comparison: ie possibly have to stand for a few hours for a fleeting moment of perceived respect.

Btw, manners are expected. Courtesy is discretionary.

One eyed Jack · 21-11-2015 02:47PM

colossus-x wrote: »

The question is why would and able bodied man give up a seat to an able bodied woman. An example of that might me a 40yo 20 a day overweight smoker male and a 30yo marathon runner female.

So there's noting wrong with it per se. Scenario: 40yo chef on his feet for 10 hours without a break at work plonks his weary ass down - bus fills up, lady on her way home too after having lunch with a friend - left standing. The OP hops on and feels 'irked' as he put it at that inconsiderate male not giving up his seat and thus thinks badly of the male. If I was the chef and could read the OP's mind I'd be seriously pissed off.

The OP is a woman. You may need to re-think your whole point on that basis.

Awkward, isn't it? :pac:

I think the reason some men do it for that momentary sense of perceived respect they get from the female and the many onlookers. The cost for that feeling is just to stand for a while so the cost is low. If the same person were on a packed train journey from Dublin to Cork on a Friday evening would he give up his seat to a female standing between the carriages? I doubt it - because the cost to him is high and the payoff is low in comparison: ie possibly have to stand for a few hours for a fleeting moment of perceived respect.

Btw, manners are expected. Courtesy is discretionary.

You're not going to make any great payoff in the mind reading business either. Your semantics about manners and courtesy are neither here nor there either. I treat everyone with respect by default. If they expect respect, then it's always a good starter to show some in social situations.

I've only once offered to give up my seat for a woman on the train from Dublin to Limerick and stood between the carriages. It was easier for me to do that than look at her standing for the next three hours. She was glad of the seat and I was glad to offer it. It wasn't any big deal. It wasn't at all about getting respect or validation from complete strangers. It was because I could do something for someone else to make their life easier. That's all.

Less of the silly nonsense about reading into other people's motives. I'm inherently more cynical than a lot of people, but some people in this thread make me look positively naive by comparison! :pac:

RDM_83 again · 21-11-2015 02:59PM

Wow for once I am in agreement that this isn't something to be blamed on modern feminism (and I love a good gender war

)

I don't give up my seat for woman that are younger than me, I do offer it for older woman, parents with kids and those in difficulties from either sex. Another poster mentioned older men and I agree thats a bit of a grey area because it can come across as a bit emasculating.
Realistically this situation barely ever happens, sit on the top floor or back of the bus and leave the front seats to those who need them.
Very little thought is needed about this
The only thing that annoys me is that it seems that its guys that give up seats way more likely to see a young guy give up a seat than some girl (talking teenagers here).

Giving a hand heavy stuff is something I do offer, I work in a pretty physical job with women and under no assumption than woman are weak and I expect either gender to put their back into doing the job, but if somebody is struggling with something they are struggling. I've noticed some girls try push themselves themselves too hard, I get the thought process but its stupid to risk injury to prove a point, if I've got 20 kilo on somebody they just aren't going to be as physically able the same way a guy thats 20 kilo heavier than me is going to be more able.

whatismyname · 21-11-2015 03:00PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The OP is a woman. You may need to re-think your whole point on that basis.

Awkward, isn't it? :pac:

You're not going to make any great payoff in the mind reading business either. Your semantics about manners and courtesy are neither here nor there either. I treat everyone with respect by default. If they expect respect, then it's always a good starter to show some in social situations.

I've only once offered to give up my seat for a woman on the train from Dublin to Limerick and stood between the carriages. It was easier for me to do that than look at her standing for the next three hours. She was glad of the seat and I was glad to offer it. It wasn't any big deal. It wasn't at all about getting respect or validation from complete strangers. It was because I could do something for someone else to make their life easier. That's all.

Less of the silly nonsense about reading into other people's motives. I'm inherently more cynical than a lot of people, but some people in this thread make me look positively naive by comparison! :pac:

They did say they think 'some men...'?

py2006 · 21-11-2015 03:04PM

I usually find its the women in their 50s + that seem to think men owe them their seat.

Younger women (even the scary feminist types) generally don't give me that impression. Except, when in a pub and there is minimal seats for a group arriving, all the girls will be seated while their male friends stand next to them. Its just a given as opposed to a demand.

I do recall a situation where a pregnant women was standing in the middle of the bus at the door. Nobody close to her were offering a seat, including two able bodied (in their fifties) women at the seat behind the stairs. Eventually a guy from the very back got up and walked down to offer his seat. The two hags sitting next to her said "About time" and gave him dirty looks.

21-11-2015 03:07PM

py2006 wrote: »

I usually find its the women in their 50s + that seem to think men owe them their seat.

Younger women (even the scary feminist types) generally don't give me that impression. Except, when in a pub and there is minimal seats for a group arriving, all the girls will be seated while their male friends stand next to them. Its just a given as opposed to a demand.

I do recall a situation where a pregnant women was standing in the middle of the bus at the door. Nobody close to her were offering a seat, including two able bodied (in their fifties) women at the seat behind the stairs. Eventually a guy from the very back got up and walked down to offer his seat. The two hags sitting neat to her said "About time" and gave him dirty looks.

You can spot scary feminists? Must be great being psychic.

Hags and scary feminists, what a way to see the world.

py2006 · 21-11-2015 03:10PM

Candie wrote: »

Hags and scary feminists, what a way to see the world.

Under the circumstances, yes.

OwaynOTT · 21-11-2015 03:10PM

Don't know if it has been touched upon but, if there was only one seat left would people give it to their girlfriend/wife?

21-11-2015 03:12PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Another poster mentioned older men and I agree thats a bit of a grey area because it can come across as a bit emasculating.

If I think an older man needs a seat, I always mention that I need to stretch my legs when I offer, so this doesn't arise.

I don't think anyone should feel emasculated by being offered a seat by a woman, but I'm aware that not all our feelings are rational so I try spare them.

I've never heard anyone pass a remark at someone else not giving up a seat, people either step up or shut up in my experience.

Azalea · 21-11-2015 03:13PM

Candie wrote: »

You can spot scary feminists? Must be great being psychic.

Hags and scary feminists, what a way to see the world.

And why is it so unexpected for "scary feminist" types not to feel entitled to a man's seat, seeing as chivalry is something they'd hate I thought?

21-11-2015 03:14PM

You know. Women, eh?

One eyed Jack · 21-11-2015 03:23PM

Azalea wrote: »

And why is it so unexpected for "scary feminist" types not to feel entitled to a man's seat, seeing as chivalry is something they'd hate I thought?

I'd take py's efforts with a pinch of salt tbh, it seems in his world, every woman he lays eyes on is a 'scary feminist', hags, etc, etc...

A pattern of behaviour emerges from his stories where it's really not them, it's him.

La Fenetre · 21-11-2015 03:24PM

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Don't know if it has been touched upon but, if there was only one seat left would people give it to their girlfriend/wife?

According to people on the internet you can't, that's sexist and patronising them apparently.

ThinkProgress · 21-11-2015 03:36PM

sup_dude wrote: »

But as I said earlier, this argument makes absolutely no sense in this thread. There is no difference between men and women with regard to their ability to stand or sit.

And as I already explained, I think you are naively assuming that it's just about a seat.

It's often part of a wider consideration that men try to make - usually with genuinely decent intentions.

But what is/isn't considered sexist is somewhat of a moving target in this modern world. Getting heavily criticized for these behaviors is a huge overreaction - and arguably quite damaging to gender relations! (ironically)

Candie wrote: »

You can spot scary feminists?

The hairy one's are pretty easy to spot.

py2006 · 21-11-2015 03:41PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd take py's efforts with a pinch of salt tbh, it seems in his world, every woman he lays eyes on is a 'scary feminist', hags, etc, etc...

A pattern of behaviour emerges from his stories where it's really not them, it's him.

Wow, I guess the two ladies who didn't offer their seat to the pregnant lady next to them and who scolded the man who had to come from the back the bus are not hags. My apologies.

NachoBusiness · 21-11-2015 03:47PM

py2006 wrote: »

I do recall a situation where a pregnant women was standing in the middle of the bus at the door. Nobody close to her were offering a seat, including two able bodied (in their fifties) women at the seat behind the stairs. Eventually a guy from the very back got up and walked down to offer his seat. The two hags sitting next to her said "About time" and gave him dirty looks.

Sadly, have witnessed similar many many times..

Have seen women, usually when with another woman, get offered seats by a couple of younger lads, accept them and not even acknowledge what the lads have just done. Have seen eyes being rolled at men for offering seats also. Far and away though, the most common ignorant behavior I see women engage in on public transport is harrumphing. Guy tries to sit down beside a woman and her body language screams how dare he, that he is unwelcome and that she is above being sat beside by a man. It'll be denied, but it's sooo bloody common and it's not just some young roughian, that you'd understand, but it can be a guy in a suit. Never understood it. Some people, and it tends to be women, and so uppity. Get over yerselves.

Now, I'm not saying men don't come with their own set of annoying behaviors on public transport, they undoubtedly do. Leg spreading does my head in for example. I have called many guys on it and they all have responded well but it's fcuking annoying that they do it in the first place but I never seen men harrumphing other men, or women. It's public transport ffs, people are going to sit beside you. They haven't selected you.

Have to say I find it funny for some users to be saying there is no issue but yet at the same time saying they don't mind some chivalry in this context. That's a contradiction, as the fact that you are saying you don't mind chivalrously being offered a seat on a thread where it's quite clear that some have said they do mind and indeed, see such actions as being sexist and patronizing.. is acknowledging the issue.

colossus-x · 21-11-2015 04:17PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The OP is a woman. You may need to re-think your whole point on that basis.

Awkward, isn't it? :pac:

I have re-thought the fictitious but plausible scenario I gave replacing the word he with she or anyone in an attempt to understand why you think I should feel awkward and I don't see it makes a jot of difference to my point. Feeling awkward not. Since you seem to derive such glee at my awkwardness which hasn't materialised I'm sure you'll be more than happy to come back and explain to us what y'all taking about.

Your semantics about manners and courtesy are neither here nor there either.

They are here and there. Manners in respect of this issue is to suggest as you stated earlier one should give up their seat. Courtesy suggests it's optional and there is no should about it at all which is precisely what we're arguing about !

I treat everyone with respect by default. If they expect respect, then it's always a good starter to show some in social situations.

I don't think you treated my point with any respect at all in the way you worded your post.

I've only once offered to give up my seat for a woman on the train from Dublin to Limerick and stood between the carriages. It was easier for me to do that than look at her standing for the next three hours. She was glad of the seat and I was glad to offer it. It wasn't any big deal.

It was no big deal for you to stand but it was for her? How so? Reminder we're talking about able-bodied people here.

It wasn't at all about getting respect or validation from complete strangers. It was because I could do something for someone else to make their life easier. That's all.

You said you ( at least partially ) did it for yourself because you would have felt awkward otherwise.

Less of the silly nonsense about reading into other people's motives.

I just demonstrated in my last point that you did have other motives and therefore it is plausible that people do have other motives. Not so silly after all.

Azalea · 21-11-2015 04:26PM

py2006 wrote: »

Wow, I guess the two ladies who didn't offer their seat to the pregnant lady next to them and who scolded the man who had to come from the back the bus are not hags. My apologies.

Fair enough, they were being hags. How do you know who's a scary feminist though?

py2006 · 21-11-2015 04:37PM

Azalea wrote: »

Fair enough, they were being hags. How do you know who's a scary feminist though?

Aren't they all scary? :P

In fairness, I don't believe I have heard/read any self proclaimed feminist go on about seating on public transport.

One eyed Jack · 21-11-2015 05:09PM

colossus-x wrote: »

I have re-thought the fictitious but plausible scenario I gave replacing the word he with she or anyone in an attempt to understand why you think I should feel awkward and I don't see it makes a jot of difference to my point. Feeling awkward not. Since you seem to derive such glee at my awkwardness which hasn't materialised I'm sure you'll be more than happy to come back and explain to us what y'all taking about.

I didn't derive any glee at all from anything, jesus, do you read (or indeed misread) and interpret everything so literally? You seem to think you have an uncanny ability to put yourself in other people's shoes in made-up scenarios and take offence on their behalf.

They are here and there. Manners in respect of this issue is to suggest as you stated earlier one should give up their seat. Courtesy suggests it's optional and there is no should about it at all which is precisely what we're arguing about !

Like I said - semantics.

I don't think you treated my point with any respect at all in the way you worded your post.

I said I treat all people with respect by default. I don't see how treating you with respect means I have to respect any points that you make. I can still respect you as a person, and tell you that you're talking shyte at the same time.

If you don't see the difference there, then you shouldn't expect I should see what you see as tbe difference between manners and courtesy.

It was no big deal for you to stand but it was for her? How so? Reminder we're talking about able-bodied people here.

Because five minutes after the train leaving the station, she was still looking for a seat and she was visibly uncomfortable. We're not talking about able bodied people here either, I have a physical disability which means that standing for any length of time is incredibly uncomfortable. I didn't give the woman a physical assessment, I only offered her my seat when I had determined that she was visibly uncomfortable.

You said you ( at least partially ) did it for yourself because you would have felt awkward otherwise.

Spare me the first year "when is a selfish act not a selfish act?" philosophy - I determined that her need was greater than mine and I knew I could stand, whereas she was already uncomfortable. I would have felt awkward if I hadn't at least offered, because I would think it was bad form on my part. Like I said from my very first post in this thread - I do it because I want to, not because I feel obligated to, because I have no qualms about being seen as "sexist" by other people.

I just demonstrated in my last point that you did have other motives and therefore it is plausible that people do have other motives. Not so silly after all.

You didn't demonstrate fcukall tbh. You dragged up a stupid philosophical point argument and tried to apply it to an everyday common interaction where it really has no place. That's why it appears pointless to you that I would offer my seat to someone based on their gender, and why you would ascribe ulterior motives to my actions, because of your own perceptive bias, not mine.

Rough Sleeper · 21-11-2015 05:21PM

Candie wrote: »

If I think an older man needs a seat, I always mention that I need to stretch my legs when I offer, so this doesn't arise.

I suppose being treated like a complete imbecile is probably worse than being figuratively emasculated, so your hideously transparent ruse might work, in that way.

One eyed Jack · 21-11-2015 05:26PM

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

I suppose being treated like a complete imbecile is probably worse than being figuratively emasculated, so your hideously transparent ruse might work, in that way.

Wow! Some people's perceptive compass is really calibrated to point to the negative in every scenario!

(or to try and paint it as a negative at least!)

21-11-2015 05:33PM

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

I suppose being treated like a complete imbecile is probably worse than being figuratively emasculated, so your hideously transparent ruse might work, in that way.

Luckily, on the few occasions I've made the offer, it's been graciously received in the spirit it was intended.

You're choosing to see it another way.

We don’t see things as they are; we see them as we are.

Anais Nin.

kfallon · 21-11-2015 05:36PM

Tend to stand on bus/Dart/Luas anyway to leave the seats for older folk or people who need to sit down.

LDN_Irish · 21-11-2015 05:38PM

Candie wrote: »

If I think an older man needs a seat, I always mention that I need to stretch my legs when I offer, so this doesn't arise.

You know who else told white lies? Hitler.

*whispers*
You f**king Nazi!

Sorry. I just wanted to find out if the negativity Jack pointed out made one feel good. I feel great but it's Saturday so I'll try it out again on Monday to make the research foolproof.

triple nipple · 21-11-2015 05:43PM

Buona Fortuna wrote:

Supposing she's just carrying a bit of weight - your gallantry could backfire

This is why i always stand

NachoBusiness · 21-11-2015 05:44PM

Okay, I'm on the Luas, sitting in a nice warm seat..

Two women are standing right in front of me weighed down by shopping. What should I do??

Apart from stop taking pictures of their feet.

LDN_Irish · 21-11-2015 05:51PM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Okay, I'm on the Luas, sitting in a nice warm seat..

Two women are standing right in front of me weighed down by shopping. What should I do??

Apart from stop taking pictures of their feet.

Past them with bliss?

Deffo stop taking pics of their feet.

One eyed Jack · 21-11-2015 05:52PM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Okay, I'm on the Luas, sitting in a nice warm seat..

Two women are standing right in front of me weighed down by shopping. What should I do??

Apart from stop taking pictures of their feet.

I was wondering what was going on there :pac:

Use your best judgement

py2006 · 21-11-2015 05:57PM

Whats an uppie?

Why should a man offer a seat to a woman on train/bus?

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