Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

darkpagandeath · 15-11-2015 01:05AM

Gbear wrote: »

Will we?

If there are no more terrorist attacks but we've provided refuge for a million desperate people is that a success?

Or if there's one, but nobody was killed?

Or 3000 people are killed in 50 seperate attacks?

What's the calculation going on here? How much good do we have to do to make up for the loss of life we're going to face?

The issue is that I don't think anyone is actually considering this problem with the refugees in this context.

Whether they're ignoring the social issues that might be raised by bringing this number of foreign and quite alien people into our society and branding any dissent as racist, or they've already made up their mind that it shouldn't be allowed and then pretend like it's really a security issue - a disingenuous argument to be making when they don't accept the humanitarian justification in the first place ("if only they weren't bombing us we'd take them in a heartbeat!").

They already have Refuge in Turkey. Getting in a boat and moving through Europe till they get to where they want is not the same as fleeting a war zone. Is there no issue with people deliberately putting their own children's lives at risk to get to Germany.

The Rape of Lucretia · 15-11-2015 01:06AM

Voltex wrote: »

A complete summary in 500 words..priceless!!

Toyota Production System has the answers to every problem !

JamboMac · 15-11-2015 01:06AM

Depp wrote: »

Isis are not at war with the sovereign states of europe, they are at war with all non muslims untill they are the only faith and rule the world

Really coz they only seem to attack certain countries, their are many countries in Europe that haven't been attacked, but the same ones tend to be targets.

Depp · 15-11-2015 01:07AM

Gbear wrote: »

Will we?

If there are no more terrorist attacks but we've provided refuge for a million desperate people is that a success?

Or if there's one, but nobody was killed?

Or 3000 people are killed in 50 seperate attacks?

What's the calculation going on here? How much good do we have to do to make up for the loss of life we're going to face?

The issue is that I don't think anyone is actually considering this problem with the refugees in this context.

Whether they're ignoring the social issues that might be raised by bringing this number of foreign and quite alien people into our society and branding any dissent as racist, or they've already made up their mind that it shouldn't be allowed and then pretend like it's really a security issue - a disingenuous argument to be making when they don't accept the humanitarian justification in the first place ("if only they weren't bombing us we'd take them in a heartbeat!").

have you read isis' aims of domination and how they plan on achieving it, maybe there wont be another life lost but how would you feel if they succeeded in their aims that they publicly and proudly profess and your mother or partner or sister were stoned to death by a sharia court for not wearing a burkha or for having sex outside of marriage, not insulting your family by any means here want to clarify that but im just trying to relate their aims, isis needs to be stopped however possible, and say what you like about unbrainwashing them but in the majority of cases this wont be possible unfortunately, in an ideal world these people could be reasoned with in a peaceful manner but sadly isis and their sympathisers are so deeply entrenched in their delusion this is impossible, in no way do i want to see further deaths of innocent civilians but i do believe that the only way isis can be stopped is through force. also there needs to be more condemnation from non radical muslims as anyone who does not fervently condemn these animals, be they muslim christian jewish atheist or even buddhist, is supporting it, the world needs to be together against isis and radical islam, we need to stand together as a species and show them they will not win.

Junkyard Tom · 15-11-2015 01:08AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

A. That culture has its roots in a part of the world that was historically very poor and without natural resources for its general population to have the resources to be educated beyond superstition

Without natural resources? It's awash with black gold.

As one US official said the [Persian] gulf has long been seen as "a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history."

Elements within Saudi Arabia export Wahabbism (Islamofascist doctrine) across the middle east and further and fund some of the most murderous groups in the region and get away with it. Why? Because we get to guzzle their sweet lite crude, they buy billions of dollars worth of western weaponry and they help maintain the US's/Israel's theatre dominance in the middle east.

ihatemyfish · 15-11-2015 01:10AM

threeball wrote: »

Just wait two years, then you'll see what the risk was and if it was worth it.

We will have let in a couple of million more by that stage. The damage could already be done.

The Rape of Lucretia · 15-11-2015 01:11AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Without natural resources? It's awash with black gold.

As one US official said the [Persian] gulf has long been seen as "a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history."

Check out the word 'historically' above. Thats when the nonsense took hold.

Depp · 15-11-2015 01:11AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Without natural resources? It's awash with black gold.

As one US official said the [Persian] gulf has long been seen as "a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history."

oil was of little to no value in the days when the quran was written and the islamic faith was born and grew

fyfe79 · 15-11-2015 01:12AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Toyota Production System has the answers to every problem !

Ha, the '5 Why's' indeed - they love that stuff in the Pharma industry too.

Boskowski · 15-11-2015 01:17AM

The only thing these threads are good for is getting some measure on the collective web mass idiocy.

fyfe79 · 15-11-2015 01:18AM

bb12 wrote: »

what still doesn't make sense to me in all this refugee crisis over the past year and particularly over the summer months is how european leaders just let their borders fall without any debate. it just doesn't make any logical sense to me at all. for the past 20 years we were all led to believe we lived in "fortress europe", impossible to get into to and even difficult when you had a valid work visa. for the past 15 years we have all been subject to excruciating airport checks and intrusive airport scanners as we were all viewed as potential threats at borders of each country. any irish who ever travelled from london to dublin through heathrow were often treated more harshly than normal.

now people try to convince me that european leaders, led by merkel, suddenly woke up one spring morning earlier this year and had a sudden attack of conscience and decided it was their moral duty to let all and sundry in without any checks whatsoever?? i watched all summer in disbelief as these roaming bands of unknowns just walked across borders all over the continent without every really being challenged.

ok so, let the leaders have moral consciences if they want but let them do it in a controlled manner. pump money into the proper refugee camps in lebanon and jordan to keep them open and then take the proper time to investigate every claim of asylum before deciding to admit them into a western country.

now i know our leaders are not stupid which is what the baying crowd seem to be roaring, so this leads me to wonder what the hell is really going on and what is the real agenda behind these days events? the only logical arguments i've seen on this so far that i can relate to is that it's a ploy to introduce civil unrest here in the west and undermine our societal democratic rights as they stand today. people will now easily accept more military intervention on the streets of europe, i already here calls for internment, if some politician suggests bugging of all phones and internet from now on in, they will have public support because people now have fear in their hearts...but what happens in a few years when that fear dies down but we're still left with big brother watching and listening to our every move? what will happen with our free speech...what will happen when we start to criticise our leaders in the future?

Totally agreed. Angela Merkel cannot be an idiot to reach the level of power she has, yet makes a seemingly idiotic decision to open the borders to all and sundry? Nobody should buy that. There is an agenda here by logic of pure deduction, but what is it? To create such a poisonous atmosphere throughout Europe that the public back our glorious leaders in any and all aggression against the Middle East for their own gain under the guise of democracy?

ihatemyfish · 15-11-2015 01:20AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah but the reality is Ireland does not have much of a Muslim community. France has atagonised muslims to various degrees. Giving fuel to the extremusts.Also Ireland does not set out to piss off Muslims.

There are 30-40 Irish based jihadists fighting in Iraq and Syria. It is very naive to think that we are not a potential target.

Gbear · 15-11-2015 01:21AM

Depp wrote: »

have you read isis' aims of domination and how they plan on achieving it, maybe there wont be another life lost but how would you feel if they succeeded in their aims that they publicly and proudly profess and your mother or partner or sister were stoned to death by a sharia court for not wearing a burkha or for having sex outside of marriage, not insulting your family by any means here want to clarify that but im just trying to relate their aims, isis needs to be stopped however possible, and say what you like about unbrainwashing them but in the majority of cases this wont be possible unfortunately, in an ideal world these people could be reasoned with in a peaceful manner but sadly isis and their sympathisers are so deeply entrenched in their delusion this is impossible, in no way do i want to see further deaths of innocent civilians but i do believe that the only way isis can be stopped is through force. also there needs to be more condemnation from non radical muslims as anyone who does not fervently condemn these animals, be they muslim christian jewish atheist or even buddhist, is supporting it, the world needs to be together against isis and radical islam, we need to stand together as a species and show them they will not win.

Right.

But it would appear that the overwhelming majority of people legging it from their terroitory would feel the same as you - otherwise you'd expect them to stay in this new glorious Caliphate being built on murder, slavery and ignorance.

If they're living as if it's the end times, or believe that they must live in a holy Islamic paradise, or that the West is a hellhole of sin and villainy, then why are they taking the reasonable person route of running away from devastated countries?

What else are we doing other than showing IS they won't win by taking in those of their countrymen they've driven away from their homes because of the scale of their barbarity?
Carrying on as before and showing them up for the impotent losers they are isn't something they have an answer for.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They already have Refuge in Turkey. Getting in a boat and moving through Europe till they get to where they want is not the same as fleeting a war zone. Is there no issue with people deliberately putting their own children's lives at risk to get to Germany.

You could be right but that's not really the point I'm making.
If that's your justification for opposing the immigration go ahead.

But it makes the threat of terrorism a moot point because you've already decided that allowing this immigration is a non-runner.

namloc1980 · 15-11-2015 01:23AM

ihatemyfish wrote: »

There are 30-40 Irish based jihadists fighting in Iraq and Syria. It is very naive to think that we are not a potential target.

If they ever return they should be locked up for life for treason.

ComfortKid · 15-11-2015 01:24AM

wp_rathead wrote:

where was it said the terrorists were refugees?

The terrorists passports that were found proved they were "refugees" who arrived by boat in Greece recently.

the evasion_kid · 15-11-2015 01:26AM

fyfe79 wrote: »

Totally agreed. Angela Merkel cannot be an idiot to reach the level of power she has, yet makes a seemingly idiotic decision to open the borders to all and sundry? Nobody should buy that. There is an agenda here by logic of pure deduction, but what is it? To create such a poisonous atmosphere throughout Europe that the public back our glorious leaders in any and all aggression against the Middle East for their own gain under the guise of democracy?

I don't even know how anybody listens to these so called leaders today and takes them seriously,I see they were all rolled out today with little speeches that all sounded the same..."solidarity" "support" "humanity" all the usual buzzwords thrown in.at the end of the day it's the public like we seen last night who end up the victims

Depp · 15-11-2015 01:31AM

Gbear wrote: »

Right.

But it would appear that the overwhelming majority of people legging it from their terroitory would feel the same as you - otherwise you'd expect them to stay in this new glorious Caliphate being built on murder, slavery and ignorance.

If they're living as if it's the end times, or believe that they must live in a holy Islamic paradise, or that the West is a hellhole of sin and villainy, then why are they taking the reasonable person route of running away from devastated countries?

What else are we doing other than showing IS they won't win by taking in those of their countrymen they've driven away from their homes because of the scale of their barbarity?
Carrying on as before and showing them up for the impotent losers they are isn't something they have an answer for.

Ive never identified as anti immigration, my problem is how it was went about and that anyone that raised legitimate concerns with the process were branded as racists, xenophobes and islamophobes, granted there were people who were racists who jumped on it but when isis bragged that they were using these means to infiltrate it was confirmed to be a legitimate concerns. there needs to be more scrutiny on those taken in and not just an open door policy, like it or not actual hate filled evil murderous terrorist criminals have come through under the guise of innocent refugees and have been applauded in cases

Christy42 · 15-11-2015 01:32AM

ComfortKid wrote: »

The terrorists passports that were found proved they were "refugees" who arrived by boat in Greece recently.

I only remember one passport being found. A good few are nationals in france or belgium. Then you also have to say you think closing the border would have stopped the one that came with the refugees couldn't have found a different route. That question keeps getting ignored.

bb12 · 15-11-2015 01:32AM

the evasion_kid wrote: »

I don't even know how anybody listens to these so called leaders today and takes them seriously,I see they were all rolled out today with little speeches that all sounded the same..."solidarity" "support" "humanity" all the usual buzzwords thrown in.at the end of the day it's the public like we seen last night who end up the victims

which is precisely the point. they're manipulating us.

the media spent all summer showing us the sob stories of the refugees so you'd think they should now be rushing to show us stories where muslims are showing support for france. the bbc interviewed one muslim woman in trafalgar sq earlier today who was out to support paris and they literally cut her off mid-stream after 10 seconds. it's like the media are now showing all stories which will lead to anti-muslim sentiments in the west...

we're being played like puppets

Superhorse · 15-11-2015 01:35AM

namloc1980 wrote: »

If they ever return they should be locked up for life for treason.

Well they where cheer lead over to Syria by the champagne socialist on RTE Joe Duffy to go fight the good fight. Wonder will he welcome them back on the show now?

moneymad · 15-11-2015 01:39AM

fyfe79 wrote: »

Totally agreed. Angela Merkel cannot be an idiot to reach the level of power she has, yet makes a seemingly idiotic decision to open the borders to all and sundry? Nobody should buy that. There is an agenda here by logic of pure deduction, but what is it? To create such a poisonous atmosphere throughout Europe that the public back our glorious leaders in any and all aggression against the Middle East for their own gain under the guise of democracy?

Death rate is higher than birth rate? Who pays taxes? Who pays for medical bills? etc. It's all about money.

bb12 · 15-11-2015 01:48AM

moneymad wrote: »

Death rate is higher than birth rate? Who pays taxes? Who pays for medical bills? etc. It's all about money.

so why didn't the germans encourage the 25% unemployed youth throughout the EU to move to germany for well paying jobs? they have millions of young educated workforces already just sitting idle at their doorsteps

Junkyard Tom · 15-11-2015 01:54AM

Attacks like the one tonight in Paris are committed to purposefully trigger an Islamophobic backlash. That backlash is not an unintended consequence of such attacks, it is part of their logic. Isis types want an Islamophobic backlash because it lends credence to their narrative that there is a war between the West and Islam. By strengthening and emboldening the xenophobic right-wing in Europe, they strengthen their own world-view as well.

Nader Atassi

Don't be a useful idiot and play into the hands of these bastards.

Duggy747 · 15-11-2015 02:24AM

Photo of the aftermath from inside the theater has surfaced showing the stage and main floor, it's heavily pixelated but the sheer amount of blood is incredible.

Depp · 15-11-2015 02:32AM

yeah its horrifying and the stains on streets outdoors are supposed to be horrible too, we truly have witnessed one of the great tragedies of our time, may they rest in peace

moneymad · 15-11-2015 02:45AM

bb12 wrote: »

so why didn't the germans encourage the 25% unemployed youth throughout the EU to move to germany for well paying jobs? they have millions of young educated workforces already just sitting idle at their doorsteps

Many have moved. However, not everyone wants to move to Germany? What's Ireland's youth unemployment rate? Why haven't everyone of those people moved to Germany? Your argument is stupid.

ihatemyfish · 15-11-2015 03:11AM

moneymad wrote: »

Many have moved. However, not everyone wants to move to Germany? What's Ireland's youth unemployment rate? Why haven't everyone of those people moved to Germany? Your argument is stupid.

So is yours when you look up the proposed costs involved for Germany in hosting these "refugees". The German labour minister estimated that only 10% will enter the labour market within the first twelve months. The rest will require education, language classes, accommodation, welfare payments etc.

ihatemyfish · 15-11-2015 03:14AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Don't be a useful idiot and play into the hands of these bastards.

The useful idiots were the ones calling for open borders and sneering at those of us who correctly predicted terrorist attacks. They have a lot of blood on their hands.

bb12 · 15-11-2015 03:15AM

moneymad wrote: »

Your argument is stupid.

i think someone is up past their bedtime

anyhow i never heard any panic about germany's so called population crisis until the refugee crisis had hit its peak a few weeks ago and europeans started grumbling.

anybody else remember an influx of german jobs advertised here in ireland during the past 5 years?

i'm sure there are plenty of irish diaspora who have been scattered to the four winds during this recession, who will not be able to make it home this christmas or perhaps even the next, who would have gladly taken up jobs in germany where they could have flown home to family and friends every weekend or two.

Isaiah · 15-11-2015 03:16AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

It doesn't matter what he was killing in the name of, the fact is he was carrying out a terrorist attack.

So the motive doesn't matter? You would make a terrible detective.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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