Garda hits man with baton NAMA

KwackerJack · 13-11-2015 02:16PM

Postman delivers a letter..........................

All these videos that come out only show 1 side! for all we know that man could have grabbed a guards baton or spray or a guard by the neck but I bet you wont see that on video.

RustyNut · 13-11-2015 02:17PM

KwackerJack wrote: »

for all we know that man could have grabbed a guards baton or spray or a guard by the neck but I bet you wont see that on video.

Especially if it never happened.

NomadicGray · 13-11-2015 02:21PM

_davidsmith_ wrote: »

I would have 100% taken the swinging wildly with the biggest thing i could find approach, starting with the women and the elderly, but then again im not a guard

I remember when trolls would at least try

Mesrine65 · 13-11-2015 02:23PM

Fair size lump of a Garda, I'm sure he could have dealt with the man in a less aggressive manner regardless.

corner of hells · 13-11-2015 02:31PM

Fair size Garda indeed , if he did land that baton anywhere on that mans head I'd have thought he would have split him open.

Surely then any protester with any cop on would've appeared with images of any injuries .

Or maybe he hit him on the shoulder and possibly the legs.

Muahahaha · 13-11-2015 02:36PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

How is that relevant to this story ? Tomlinson didn't die because he was hit on the legs with a batton.

Yep it was his head smashing the concrete after the cop struck his legs with a baton that killed him. So it shows a baton to the legs can result in death, which therefore means their use needs to be justified.

Would it have killed the Garda to draw his baton and warn whoever the problem was that he was willing to use it? I don't think it would but this Garda seems to have got a fit of red mist and just lashed out. I doubt they're trained in baton use that way is all I'm saying.

smash · 13-11-2015 02:40PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yep it was his head smashing the concrete after the cop struck his legs with a baton that killed him. So it shows a baton to the legs can result in death, which therefore means their use needs to be justified.

Would it have killed the Garda to draw his baton and warn whoever the problem was that he was willing to use it? I don't think it would but this Garda seems to have got a fit of red mist and just lashed out. I doubt they're trained in baton use that way is all I'm saying.

Great username for this thread

http://s8.postimg.org/lyl63ap91/image.jpg

questionmark? · 13-11-2015 02:43PM

One part of me says this was wrong by the Guard the other part says that crowd was lucky it was Ireland. Could you imagine trying that **** in Spain or the US. They would have all got arrested and a fair few got a good hiding.

AudreyHepburn · 13-11-2015 02:44PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm so utterly sick of this argument. What happened beforehand is irrelevant - assault isn't ok period.

Of course it's not, who's saying otherwise.

But assault is not what happened here.

Etnies · 13-11-2015 02:49PM

Karsini wrote: »

These videos tend to only show one side of the story and are often uploaded to fuel a specific belief. You don't know what happened before the filming began.

You can make that point about any video posted on the internet, it's irrelevant, the people that were there back up the side of the story shown in the video what more do you need? An impartial judge for you to deciede if it's legit or not.

If the guy did something so wrong, why didn't he arrest him? He walked away, then turned around and smashed him behind the ear, that can be fatal, that's a fact.

Even if he was provoked, if I was provoked on a night out in town and pulled out a baton and smashed someone over the head, what would happen me? They can't be above the law.

To Elland Back · 13-11-2015 02:51PM

It is up to the genuine protesters to weed out or manager the skangers who have tagged on to their legitimate dispute. Failing that, suffer the consequences of being in the line of fire when Gardaí go about their extremely difficult jubs

corner of hells · 13-11-2015 02:51PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yep it was his head smashing the concrete after the cop struck his legs with a baton that killed him. So it shows a baton to the legs can result in death, which therefore means their use needs to be justified.

Would it have killed the Garda to draw his baton and warn whoever the problem was that he was willing to use it? I don't think it would but this Garda seems to have got a fit of red mist and just lashed out. I doubt they're trained in baton use that way is all I'm saying.

I thought he died from injuries indirectly related to underlying health issues ,,chronic alcoholism and other related issues.

gctest50 · 13-11-2015 02:54PM

questionmark? wrote: »

One part of me says this was wrong by the Guard the other part says that crowd was lucky it was Ireland. Could you imagine trying that **** in Spain or the US. They would have all got arrested and a fair few got a good hiding.

no it wasn't - some of them would just be waiting for a bit of hassle to start

cython · 13-11-2015 02:54PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yep it was his head smashing the concrete after the cop struck his legs with a baton that killed him. So it shows a baton to the legs can result in death, which therefore means their use needs to be justified.

Would it have killed the Garda to draw his baton and warn whoever the problem was that he was willing to use it? I don't think it would but this Garda seems to have got a fit of red mist and just lashed out. I doubt they're trained in baton use that way is all I'm saying.

If you're going to cite a case, at least get the specifics correct. Head injury was ruled to have had no bearing in the death of Ian Tomlinson, but rather internal bleeding in the abdomen as a result of blunt force trauma (actually inflicted by his own elbow), associated with cirrhosis of the liver. Bit of a freak set of circumstances, to be fair, but a hard push to the wrong part of the abdomen could have done the same.

That said, the Garda in this instance reacted, IMHO, with slightly too heavy a hand, and should not have drawn the baton and lashed out with it in practically one movement. Nobody in that video showered themselves in glory though, and the would-be legal counsel would want to be careful that they don't get themselves arrested under Section 19 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994:

Assault or obstruction of peace officer.

19.—(1) Any person who—

(a) assaults a peace officer acting in the execution of the peace officer's duty, knowing that he is, or being reckless as to whether he is, a peace officer acting in the execution of his duty, or

(b) assaults any other person acting in the aid of a peace officer, or

(c) assaults any other person with intent to resist or prevent the lawful apprehension or detention of himself or any other person for any offence,

shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be liable—

(a) having elected for summary disposal of the offence, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, or to both,

(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to both.

(3) Any person who resists or wilfully obstructs a peace officer acting in the execution of his duty or a person assisting a peace officer in the execution of his duty, knowing that he is or being reckless as to whether he is, a peace officer acting in the execution of his duty, shall be guilty of an offence.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (3) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

(5) The provisions of this section are in addition to and not in substitution of any provision in any other enactment relating to assault or obstruction of a peace officer.

(6) In this section—

“peace officer” means a member of the Garda Síochána, a prison officer or a member of the Defence Forces;

“prison” means any place for which rules or regulations may be made under the Prisons Acts, 1826 to 1980, section 7 of the Offences against the State (Amendment) Act, 1940 , section 233 of the Defence Act, 1954 , section 2 of the Prisoners of War and Enemy Aliens Act, 1956 , or section 13 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1960 ;

“prison officer” includes any member of the staff of a prison and any person having the custody of, or having duties in relation to the custody of, a person detained in prison.

There was definite wilful obstruction of the Garda in the first 3 mins of that video from them and others.

Etnies · 13-11-2015 02:59PM

TallGlass wrote: »

Would you calm down. 'Killed him outright', it was a slap on the leg.

That's all these boyos want is a few slaps and to get it on camera and show the Garda in a bad light. Like these Irish Water protests and NAMA protests the Garda are now the focal point not the real issue at hand.

Are you been redirected to another video or something? Or do you need the eyes checked

ThisRegard · 13-11-2015 03:00PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yep it was his head smashing the concrete after the cop struck his legs with a baton that killed him.

It wasn't, the official cause of death from the coroner was along the lines of blunt force trauma to the abdomen.

Edit; I see Cython just clarified that.

Samaris · 13-11-2015 03:22PM

I've watched the thing with pausing a few times now, and I still can't be 100% sure.

What it looked like to me was;

Man being arrested, mouthy chap being mouthy. The crowd is definitely unfriendly.

Something happens with an elderly guy over the other side of the room, it seems like they try to remove the stick from him, and he falls over. There's cries of "A man with Parkinsons, for shame!" Cut back to the other side of the room, it seems to have calmed down until the officer starts to lead the man under arrest away and the crowd swarms. The elder guy was having a rant off at the Garda, and eventually gets swept back by an arm which causes him to stumble. This doesn't seem like a deliberate fall, it was tight-packed quarters. Now, the way he's positioned, it does look like he's going for the notebook, but that might be unfortunate positioning, it's a bit hard to tell.

The bald man leans over him, reaching out and apparently pushing the Garda on his shoulder. He withdraws his hand and looks down at the older man bent over and moves around him a bit, at which point the Garda, who's been taking out his baton, turns and lashes him twice without taking much time to properly assess where and who he's belting. On the second blow, the man, who is bent over, has no protection around the face and seems to take it fairly solidly in the head. He falls back and the big bald bloke lunges forward again to grab the Garda's arm.

After that it's all over bar the pushing and shoving.

I dunno. I don't agree that the Garda should have lashed out with that much force, it -did- certainly look like he really swung it in there. He's a big burly bloke too, and it seemed like he could get a fair amount of force into a wallop. The crowd were extremely provocative and the armchair solicitor of all of them mildly deserved a whack. BUT...the Garda is trained on how to handle these situations and it doesn't really look like he had suitable reason to belt him like that.

By the way, the Garda does not have to quote the full section, and he does appear to be entitled to ask for a name and address if cautioning or arresting under a specific act if he has reason to believe that an offence has been committed under it - which he did. The armchair lawyer made a twit of himself.

REXER · 13-11-2015 03:22PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Fair size lump of a Garda, I'm sure he could have dealt with the man in a less aggressive manner regardless.

More like a fat lump of a Garda, he should have to pass a fitness test! :eek: I wonder if uniforms that big cost extra? Doughnuts anyone?

esforum · 13-11-2015 03:23PM

esforum wrote: »

make me

_davidsmith_ wrote: »

HAHA keyboard warriors assemble!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just to clarify this point, I wasnt calling out David for a fight, Im not 12.

I was making an admittedly badly worded point on use of force.

namely, if someone is bold and having refused to comply with a verbal command there has to be an elevation of response and that will include force.

In this case the man attempted to intervene in an arrest and was

A, warned to get back verbally then
b, pushed rather weakly by the Garda
c, hit with a baton AFTER continuing to interfere with the Garda and to add insult to injury, tried to steal his official Garda notebook.

The force continum was adhered to. Would the people condemning the Garda not use force if someone was trying to steal their phones (as an example?)

Muahahaha · 13-11-2015 03:26PM

corner of hells wrote: »

I thought he died from injuries indirectly related to underlying health issues ,,chronic alcoholism and other related issues.

ThisRegard wrote: »

It wasn't, the official cause of death from the coroner was along the lines of blunt force trauma to the abdomen.

Edit; I see Cython just clarified that.

Fair enough. My point still stands that the use of batons can be fatal- West Yorkshire Police show the areas on the body where death by baton can occur here on page 5 of their manual.
http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/sites/default/files/files/disclosure-logs/2014_218_foi2014514185_use_of_force_policy2.pdf

Regarding the Tomlinson case AFAIR the police officer concerned was eventually charged with unlawful killing and was jailed for manslaughter. There was also an initial police cover up which got blown apart by the video that later emerged.

In any case I think that Garda lost his calm momentarily and if he had to use his baton he should have drawn it first and shouted a warning GET BACK. Then if the man then came for him when he had the baton drawn then fair enough, use it on him. But it all happened a lot faster than that.

Also something I don't think has been mentioned yet- at the end of the video the picture is lost but you can hear sounds of what might be thumps being thrown before it cuts off. I think there might be more to this story yet that we haven't seen.

esforum · 13-11-2015 03:27PM

esforum wrote: »

make me

_davidsmith_ wrote: »

HAHA keyboard warriors assemble!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just to clarify this point, I wasnt calling out David for a fight, Im not 12.

I was making an admittedly badly worded point on use of force.

namely, if someone is bold and having refused to comply with a verbal command there has to be an elevation of response and that will include force.

In this case the man attempted to intervene in an arrest and was

A, warned to get back verbally then
b, pushed rather weakly by the Garda
c, hit with a baton AFTER continuing to interfere with the Garda and to add insult to injury, tried to steal his official Garda notebook.

The force continum was adhered to. Would the people condemning the Garda not use force if someone was trying to steal their phones (as an example?)

now lets just refer to post 136 shall we? Thats the people the Garda is dealing with, people who want to get a gang and attack the mans family home. Because having 20 people attack 1 Garda proves the Garda is the coward somehow

Canis Lupus · 13-11-2015 03:28PM

I'd be awful pissed off with myself losing my job over a pack of w*nkers if I was that garda. Wasn't worth it.

esforum · 13-11-2015 03:29PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

In any case I think that Garda lost his calm momentarily and if he had to use his baton he should have drawn it first and shouted a warning GET BACK. Then if the man then came for him when he had the baton drawn then fair enough, use it on him.

the man was trying to take the Gardas official issue equipment, in such a crowed area holding a baton while shouting after that will more than likely result in the baton been taken off you

mynamejeff · 13-11-2015 03:29PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm so utterly sick of this argument. What happened beforehand is irrelevant - assault isn't ok period.

i got to tell ya pal that a pretty silly thing to say,

obviously what happened before is the difference between self defense or doing his job and assault .

very very silly thing to say

bucketybuck · 13-11-2015 03:32PM

_davidsmith_ wrote: »

Many people would believe a guard isnt entitled to hit one of the "feckwits" as hard as he could twice over his prayer book being grabbed at..

Yeah, twice isn't enough actually, he should have hit him five or six times just to be sure. Might have knocked some sense into him then.

cython · 13-11-2015 03:33PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Fair enough. My point still stands that the use of batons can be fatal- West Yorkshire Police show the areas on the body where death by baton can occur here on page 5 of their manual.
http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/sites/default/files/files/disclosure-logs/2014_218_foi2014514185_use_of_force_policy2.pdf

Regarding the Tomlinson case AFAIR the police officer concerned was eventually charged with unlawful killing and was jailed for manslaughter. There was also an initial police cover up which got blown apart by the video that later emerged.

In any case I think that Garda lost his calm momentarily and if he had to use his baton he should have drawn it first and shouted a warning GET BACK. Then if the man then came for him when he had the baton drawn then fair enough, use it on him. But it all happened a lot faster than that.

Also something I don't think has been mentioned yet- at the end of the video the picture is lost but you can hear sounds of what might be thumps being thrown before it cuts off. I think there might be more to this story yet that we haven't seen.

Wrong again on the jailing issue, he was charged with manslaughter, but found not guilty. He was, however, dismissed from the service for gross misconduct a few months later.

seamus · 13-11-2015 03:34PM

Now that the idiot brigade realise they've lost the argument in regards whether the Garda had been assaulted and needed to use force, the argument now is that a big guy like him shouldn't have used a baton?

Presumably because batons are for girls and wimps, or something?

Yes, the Gardai made mistakes here - the main mistake is that when carrying out the arrest the Gardai should have group themselves together and marched him out through the crowd, pushing people out of the way. The arresting Garda left himself vulnerable when attempting to march the guy out alone through a unruly crowd. Which ultimately made it necessary to take the baton out to move the crowd back.

Superhorse · 13-11-2015 03:45PM

Just as well he didn't throw a water balloon at him instead of bashing him over the head with a baton. He'd be up in the dock in no time with our politicians comparing him to ISIS.

Clandestine · 13-11-2015 03:46PM

Provoked or not, he swung wildly and hit a bloke in the head. Hard enough, it could have caused serious damage or even death. If he cant control his emotions, he shouldn't be on the force

Also, the people backing him because they dislike the free-men group can jump in a lake. It doesn't matter who the group is, it shouldn't influence the coppers actions.

corner of hells · 13-11-2015 03:51PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Fair enough. My point still stands that the use of batons can be fatal- West Yorkshire Police show the areas on the body where death by baton can occur here on page 5 of their manual.
http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/sites/default/files/files/disclosure-logs/2014_218_foi2014514185_use_of_force_policy2.pdf

Regarding the Tomlinson case AFAIR the police officer concerned was eventually charged with unlawful killing and was jailed for manslaughter. There was also an initial police cover up which got blown apart by the video that later emerged.

In any case I think that Garda lost his calm momentarily and if he had to use his baton he should have drawn it first and shouted a warning GET BACK. Then if the man then came for him when he had the baton drawn then fair enough, use it on him. But it all happened a lot faster than that.

Also something I don't think has been mentioned yet- at the end of the video the picture is lost but you can hear sounds of what might be thumps being thrown before it cuts off. I think there might be more to this story yet that we haven't seen.

The thumps at the end ? You're just guessing , trying to anticipate something .
It could've have anything and nothing.

Garda hits man with baton NAMA

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