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Waterford University discussion

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    #1262
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    PolaroidPizza wrote: »
    what does his/her education history got to do with the facts? the fact is that 3rd level institutions currently are about 1billion euro underfunded.
    with an increasing population, that number will just increase.
    most parties think that some sort of student loan system is the only way of making up the difference without significantly raising taxes.
    so the question is....when we cannot afford the current system, how does it make sense to upgrade WIT ?

    you may agree/disagree about the quality of education currently available, but you cannot disagree with the numbers.
    ( I believe it's significantly below our competitors, having obtained a PhD here, and having work in 3rd level institutes Canada, Belgium and Austria).
    And your solution as you stated earlier is we get all of the 90,000 people who go to third level in Ireland to go abroad to get educated we close down all the colleges here and we save a couple of billion !!! And you have a PHD ???


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    #1263
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    imacman wrote: »
    And your solution as you stated earlier is we get all of the 90,000 people who go to third level in Ireland to go abroad to get educated we close down all the colleges here and we save a couple of billion !!! And you have a PHD ???

    ...not to forget, and make half the country unemployed!


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    #1264
    PolaroidPizza
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭PolaroidPizza


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...not to forget, and make half the country unemployed!

    By that logic we should keep thw hospitals open in every town in the country too.

    Ive proposed a drastic solution to a serious problem. Most people here reject the notion that 3rd level education is even in crisis...never mind try to tackle the problem


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    #1265
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PolaroidPizza wrote: »
    By that logic we should keep thw hospitals open in every town in the country too.

    Ive proposed a drastic solution to a serious problem. Most people here reject the notion that 3rd level education is even in crisis...never mind try to tackle the problem

    A drastic solution with potentially dire economic and social consequences to solve what is probably a contrived problem in the first place . Industry here would no longer have the human capital provided by the third level institutions forcing them to locate in areas where such capital exists. You're not proposing a solution as it is so costly it is tantamont to not having a tertiary education sector at all.


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    #1266
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    PolaroidPizza wrote: »
    By that logic we should keep thw hospitals open in every town in the country too.

    Ive proposed a drastic solution to a serious problem. Most people here reject the notion that 3rd level education is even in crisis...never mind try to tackle the problem

    errrr emm, how about increasing public funding!


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    #1267
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    imacman wrote: »
    And your solution as you stated earlier is we get all of the 90,000 people who go to third level in Ireland to go abroad to get educated we close down all the colleges here and we save a couple of billion !!! And you have a PHD ???

    ½ the numbers in 3rd level, send the 600 pointers abroad to the world class colleges, and close all these ****ty ITs.


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    #1268
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    The highest non-progression rate in the IT sector was at Waterford IT (21 per cent)
    http://www.thejournal.ie/hea-report-student-drop-out-rates-1241851-Dec2013/

    This is actually a good thing as it is a sign the courses provided are of substance. Courses with a low progression rate could possibly mean they are undemanding academically. That was certainly the case in places like NUI Maynooth when I moved there . There was plenty of "full time" students there in first year who at the time were barely doing more than 20 hours per week of lectures. Most full time first year courses in WIT were doing approximately 33.

    Somone who has studied in a course like fish farming where 60 points is all that was required when I left school or rec management with high progression does not mean they have acheived the same academic standard as someone who has studied Maths or Physics with low progression rates. If you read the article properly you will see it is not an indicator of standards.


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    #1269
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    It's not a good thing, it's a waste of time and money for everyone involved. These students shouldn't be allowed into college as they're unsuitable. It's this 'Education for all' nonsense that's creating a huge drop out rate. A lot of these students wouldn't have got into college a few years back. Now everyone's equal. Not good at maths or science? No problem, how about a degree in Visual Communications? Then you can complain there's no jobs in your chosen area and emigrate instead of working at something else. Complete waste of time and money. The only people who benefit from this lark are these crap colleges taking in too many students and making money.


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    #1270
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    It's not a good thing, it's a waste of time and money for everyone involved. These students shouldn't be allowed into college as they're unsuitable. It's this 'Education for all' nonsense that's creating a huge drop out rate. A lot of these students wouldn't have got into college a few years back. Now everyone's equal. Not good at maths or science? No problem, how about a degree in Visual Communications? Then you can complain there's no jobs in your chosen area and emigrate instead of working at something else. Complete waste of time and money. The only people who benefit from this lark are these crap colleges taking in too many students and making money.

    i actually think drop out rates are related to a more complicated issue of a poor educational structure prior to third level. ive had this confirmed with people working within the third level system. i think many young students are actually lacking in skills both academically and personally as they enter the third level system. im more concerned about the lack of personal skills facing young students at third level. i feel this is not being addressed in our educational system in both primary but mainly secondary level.


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    #1271
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    It's not a good thing, it's a waste of time and money for everyone involved. These students shouldn't be allowed into college as they're unsuitable. It's this 'Education for all' nonsense that's creating a huge drop out rate. A lot of these students wouldn't have got into college a few years back. Now everyone's equal. Not good at maths or science? No problem, how about a degree in Visual Communications? Then you can complain there's no jobs in your chosen area and emigrate instead of working at something else. Complete waste of time and money. The only people who benefit from this lark are these crap colleges taking in too many students and making money.

    It is a good thing from the point of WIT as it suggests that WIT is not one of the "crappy institutions" you are foaming at the mouth about.It also suggests the colleges with a higher progression rate are providing less resilient courses. You make big claims about having facts yet do not post any evidence to put up for scrutiny. You seem to think there is some delusional world where nobody complains and there are perfect universities educating people to a level where they fit seamlessly into a career sector. Their isn't! Even the Ivy league schools churn out people by the thousand who go on a completely different career path or cannot find work in their field of study. This is completely normal and is more of a hallmark of a University than an IT.Tertiary and Fourth level education is not there simply to provide for the labour force directly. If you think it is then you are badly misinformed!

    The system of admission into colleges and universities is here competitive even if it was 100 times more stringent do you think there would not be different progression rates? Grow up! You would still be on here moaning about something completely irrelevant!


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    #1272
    JaCrispy
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    It also suggests the colleges with a higher progression rate are providing less resilient courses

    Haha what a ridiculous conclusion to come to. Sure by your rationale a course with 100% dropout rate will have the highest academic merit.

    Fact is that for the population of Ireland we already have too many Universities. No point in generating another 1/2 baked one....merger or not.


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    #1273
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    JaCrispy wrote: »
    Haha what a ridiculous conclusion to come to. Sure by your rationale a course with 100% dropout rate will have the highest academic merit.

    Well what conclusion are you taking from it? That students voluntarily enroll for a sh!t course? There is no other logical conclusion. Especially as WIT is ranked higher then IT's with a higher progression rate. Riddle me that one genius.
    JaCrispy wrote: »
    Fact is that for the population of Ireland we already have too many Universities. No point in generating another 1/2 baked one....merger or not.

    Yet this is what YOU want for Carlow IT:D Who is ridiculous now? Not too mention that it is in fact an entirely subjective statement.


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    #1274
    PolaroidPizza
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭PolaroidPizza


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    errrr emm, how about increasing public funding!

    already 1 billion underfunded, so we need 1 billion euro extra just to meet current needs.
    People like yourself want to upgrade more ITs to universities, which require extra capital, infrastructure, headcount and headcount benefits...lets add a few 100 million on to the bill.
    now..the students...approximately 50% currently receive some form of grant. student numbers are increasing, so this budget needs to increase too.

    and none of these are once off....they need to be budgeted for every year. how many people want to pay for this in their taxes? your average joe & josephines aren't even willing to pay higher taxes for better primary healthcare and primary education, yet they're supposed to fork out more for 3rd level?

    then my main argument is this...current levels give students a level of education that is well below what they receive in Europe/North America, so to remain competitive we require even more investment.


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    #1275
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    Hearing strong rumours a big slice of humble pie will have to be swallowed as regards our previous much maligned Director and a very sizeable cheque will have to be written, because of an internal hatchet job ,I wonder will heads roll? not a chance ....


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    #1276
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    It is a good thing from the point of WIT as it suggests that WIT is not one of the "crappy institutions" you are foaming at the mouth about.
    It is a crappy institution because it shouldn't be taking these students in the first place. If students drop out they're either unsuited, poorly tutored, or not that bright. A college with the highest drop out rate in Ireland should never become a university. 1 in 6 students in the ITs drop out after first year. Waterford United has a better chance getting into the Premier League than WIT getting university status.


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    #1277
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    PolaroidPizza wrote: »
    already 1 billion underfunded, so we need 1 billion euro extra just to meet current needs.
    People like yourself want to upgrade more ITs to universities, which require extra capital, infrastructure, headcount and headcount benefits...lets add a few 100 million on to the bill.
    now..the students...approximately 50% currently receive some form of grant. student numbers are increasing, so this budget needs to increase too.

    and none of these are once off....they need to be budgeted for every year. how many people want to pay for this in their taxes? your average joe & josephines aren't even willing to pay higher taxes for better primary healthcare and primary education, yet they're supposed to fork out more for 3rd level?

    then my main argument is this...current levels give students a level of education that is well below what they receive in Europe/North America, so to remain competitive we require even more investment.

    check out my signature! she might just have the answers to the puzzle!

    just encase you missed it before, please read below:
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i actually think dropout rates are related to a more complicated issue of a poor educational structure prior to third level. ive had this confirmed with people working within the third level system. i think many young students are actually lacking in skills both academically and personally as they enter the third level system. im more concerned about the lack of personal skills facing young students at third level. i feel this is not being addressed in our educational system in both primary but mainly secondary level.

    ....maybe, just maybe!
    fiachr_a wrote: »
    If students drop out they're either unsuited, poorly tutored, or not that bright.

    ....jasus!

    please read above!


  • Options
    #1278
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    It is a crappy institution because it shouldn't be taking these students in the first place. If students drop out they're either unsuited, poorly tutored, or not that bright. A college with the highest drop out rate in Ireland should never become a university. 1 in 6 students in the ITs drop out after first year. Waterford United has a better chance getting into the Premier League than WIT getting university status.


    Yeah keep taking the pills for the obvious chip you have on your shoulder. The metric has nothing to do with the performance of the IT if it is even if it is a metric at all. The dropout rate has nothing to do with the quality of the course or its delivery.Nothing you have posted shows that it is. You are just reading something into it that you want to. There is no reasons stated as to why students dropout. If a student fulfills the required admission criteria then he/she is entitled to take the course if they want.There is no way of predicting if they are going to drop out or not so you're language is pure unadulterated idiocy! This is the case for all the institutions University or not. Your suggestion is just generated by a lot of bile and thankfully nobody takes people like you seriously.


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    #1279
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    Yeah keep taking the pills for the obvious chip you have on your shoulder. The metric has nothing to do with the performance of the IT if it is even if it is a metric at all. The dropout rate has nothing to do with the quality of the course or its delivery.Nothing you have posted shows that it is. You are just reading something into it that you want to. There is no reasons stated as to why students dropout. If a student fulfills the required admission criteria then he/she is entitled to take the course if they want.There is no way of predicting if they are going to drop out or not so you're language is pure unadulterated idiocy! This is the case for all the institutions University or not. Your suggestion is just generated by a lot of bile and thankfully nobody takes people like you seriously.

    What you are saying that drop rates and graduation rates are not an important metric? or even measured at all?

    Wow....


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    #1280
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    robtri wrote: »
    What you are saying that drop rates and graduation rates are not an important metric? or even measured at all?

    Wow....

    Its a third level institute not a primary school. If colleges are dumbing down to facilitate graduation rates which they have also been accused of then this is a bigger problem. Other than a couple of bitter lunatics on boards.ie nobody has given any stock to dropout rates. Why would they?Dropout rates should be relatively high in first year at least to weed out those who are not able to take the pace of the course.This is fair on the student and the institution. The article that was posted even stated it wasn't an indicator of performance. Yet some of the twisted logic on here is effectively stating that on one hand certain students should not be facilitated to third level because they are not suited and on the other hand these same students should be coddled to avoid dropping out! Pure nonsense!


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    #1281
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    Its a third level institute not a primary school. If colleges are dumbing down to facilitate graduation rates which they have also been accused of then this is a bigger problem. Other than a couple of bitter lunatics on boards.ie nobody has given any stock to dropout rates. Why would they?Dropout rates should be relatively high in first year at least to weed out those who are not able to take the pace of the course.This is fair on the student and the institution. The article that was posted even stated it wasn't an indicator of performance. Yet some of the twisted logic on here is effectively stating that on one hand certain students should not be facilitated to third level because they are not suited and on the other hand these same students should be coddled to avoid dropping out! Pure nonsense!


    The more recent arguments going on in this thread are irrelevant anyway.For fiachr_a and PolaroidPizza WIT and all of the Institutes of technology are going nowhere.Any ideas about shutting them down or sending all of out students abroad are just waffle and not realistic.This is a thread about the Future of WIT , and no amount of griping about crappy courses can deny that WIT has produced thousands of graduates who have gone on to successful careers over the last 40 years.


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    #1282
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    imacman wrote: »
    and no amount of griping about crappy courses can deny that WIT has produced thousands of graduates who have gone on to successful careers over the last 40 years.
    If they're so successful and so many then why does WIT need to become a university? Where are all these future 1st year drop outs going to go when they can't even get into Waterford University to drop out after a year? You can't argue that everyone is entitled to go to college and expect a university to allow them all in. No kid with 600 points will put down Waterford University number 1 on their CAO form instead of UCD/TCD as these will always be better universities.


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    #1283
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    If they're so successful and so many then why does WIT need to become a university? Where are all these future 1st year drop outs going to go when they can't even get into Waterford University to drop out after a year? You can't argue that everyone is entitled to go to college and expect a university to allow them all in. No kid with 600 points will put down Waterford University number 1 on their CAO form instead of UCD/TCD as these will always be better universities.

    My god, can you stop talking about the 1% of students who get 600 points please. What about the 1000s of families in the south east who have children that do good enough to warrant a place in a University but have to send their kids away (when they can probably barely afford to do so) in order to actually go to one? We are not talking about the drop outs or the geniuses but the 1000s of normal families in the South East who are being completely forgotten about when it comes to their opportunities at third level.


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    #1284
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    If they're so successful and so many then why does WIT need to become a university? Where are all these future 1st year drop outs going to go when they can't even get into Waterford University to drop out after a year? You can't argue that everyone is entitled to go to college and expect a university to allow them all in. No kid with 600 points will put down Waterford University number 1 on their CAO form instead of UCD/TCD as these will always be better universities.


    Nobody has argued that people are entiltled to go to to college or University. So this straw man arguement you are inventing has nothing to do with anything. By your logic nobody would get out of bed in the morning for fear of failure. These kids who are not suited to go to college will presumably do a PLC course, A FAS course an internship of some sort or some other career avenue which has always been the case. But there is nothing wrong with attempting a third level course and discovering its not for you....Your ridiculous arguement seems to be don't try unless your guaranteed success which is a minute step from not trying at all.


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    #1285
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    There is no consistent relationship between admission points and performance of the institution when you look at at the CAO report for 2015. Yes Universities are higher but even the top two or three have little correlation with each other. But there is a huge overlap between courses even between IT's and Uni's

    http://www2.cao.ie/points/l8.php#dn8


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    #1286
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    A Waterford University will end up like that WIT sports centre, delayed and running over budget.


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    #1287
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    A Waterford University will end up like that WIT sports centre, delayed and running over budget.


    Yeah course it will! That must be another one of those "facts" you keep posting.


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    #1288
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    yep graduation rates are not important, sure so unimportant that the Higher Education Authority woul never bother to monitor, track and report on them...

    ohhhhh wait....
    http://www.thejournal.ie/hea-report-student-drop-out-rates-1241851-Dec2013/

    just a snippet from it

    The highest non-progression rate in the IT sector was at Waterford IT (21 per cent) while the best (4 per cent) was at Letterkenny.


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    #1289
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    Good to see they've turned St John's College into a shelter for the homeless. A ready-made university if ever there was one.


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    #1290
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    It is a crappy institution because it shouldn't be taking these students in the first place. If students drop out they're either unsuited, poorly tutored, or not that bright. A college with the highest drop out rate in Ireland should never become a university. 1 in 6 students in the ITs drop out after first year. Waterford United has a better chance getting into the Premier League than WIT getting university status.

    Can I ask why exactly you are so against this? Are you involved in the educational establishment? Or from a nearby small town?


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    #1291
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    robtri wrote: »
    yep graduation rates are not important, sure so unimportant that the Higher Education Authority woul never bother to monitor, track and report on them...

    ohhhhh wait....
    http://www.thejournal.ie/hea-report-student-drop-out-rates-1241851-Dec2013/

    just a snippet from it

    The highest non-progression rate in the IT sector was at Waterford IT (21 per cent) while the best (4 per cent) was at Letterkenny.


    Graduation rates are only important if the course is worth graduating from. You could abolish all exams and course work and make graduation just dependent on turning up but the course would not be worth a p1ss. But hey, graduation rates would be 99% so it has to be the best institution in Ireland.

    And if you read the article properly is states that the graduation rating is not a ranking metric. If you read HEA document that the article is linked to it states it as well. But hey! If you want to go around thinking Letterkenny is the best tertiary education institute in the country then go ahead. As much as you want non progression rates to be a negative metric for WIT it isn't one. Students who enter third level institutes are not children anymore they have to pass course work to graduate. Its not some new age school that lets everyone win the "egg and spoon race" just for taking part.It's a competitive institution preparing people for a competitive world.


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