Waterford University discussion

PolaroidPizza · 15-10-2015 11:18pm

O Riain wrote: »

Most of what you have mentioned can be attributed to the fact that our economy has collapsed in the last few years and there just isn't much money floating around.

We've been exporting too much of our youth for too long, having some government system in place to facilitate this is moronic. You think they would all magically return after their studies are finished? Students bring a lot of life into the cities where they study, removing this alone from cities would turn Ireland into a dull boring hell hole.

hah, yes its right up there as a priority for our politicians after the health service, the guards, the looming pension crisis, the housing crisis, the water mess and the nations schools...oh, and the little bit of national debt. .once we get all that taken care of, I'm sure there'll be loads left to fix the university system.

giving our kids an education that is at a standard on par with what they'd get abroad is more important to me than keeping a sub-par college open just so we can keep a few local nightclubs open on a Tuesday and Wednesday night. sure, because of students a few local landlords make a few quid, and there's a bit of life around the town...but ultimately they'd get a better education elsewhere.

fuzzy dunlop · 15-10-2015 11:20pm

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

don't agree with that? how about the reports from multinational employers which state that an increasing number of irish graduates cannot compete with their foreign counterparts?

I call foul here. For the simple reason that I see how Irish graduates perform in an international context first hand and they are of immensely good quality. Secondly these "reports" are almost identical in conclusion to reports from the United States the Uk (Who have more "performing" according to league tables) and from what I am told by foreign co-workers in countries such as Poland and even China. These is classic race to the bottom stuff.....Its amazing that Germany relative to countries like the UK make relatively little impact in league tables with regard to there institutions and they have the most robust economy in Europe.

http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/archivestory.php/aid/2768/Breaking_ranks.html

Wanderer78 · 16-10-2015 10:50am

i find it upsetting and kinna disturbing when people say we should just close our educational facilities. id class educational matters almost as important as health care issues as education creates options for people and probably most importantly, hope for individuals. im extremely proud of the growth of wit over the years. it has become one of the finest educational institutions we have in this country. of course its not perfect and has some improvements to be made, but i find it extremely impressive how it has developed over the years.

PolaroidPizza · 16-10-2015 6:49pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i find it upsetting and kinna disturbing when people say we should just close our educational facilities. id class educational matters almost as important as health care issues as education creates options for people and probably most importantly, hope for individuals. im extremely proud of the growth of wit over the years. it has become one of the finest educational institutions we have in this country. of course its not perfect and has some improvements to be made, but i find it extremely impressive how it has developed over the years.

I agree, education is just as important as healthcare...its just not necessary that engineers, software designers, scientists, architects, healthcare professionals, economists etc get their education here in Ireland when we obviously cannot afford to give them a 1st class education.

we pay a lot of money to keep the buildings open, the staff employed and pensioned, and then we pay the majority of the student fees, and then on top of that, we pay grants to nearly 50% of the students anyway and at the end of the day, the universities here are still not near as good as those elsewhere in Europe.....at some point does someone not just ask, is it best to stop trying to catch up?
We can keep 1 or 2 institutes open to keep studies in Irish law/language/history etc alive, and maybe even keep a few research hubs going....but science is science, engineering is engineering....why not send the students to places that can afford qualified lecturers, fully equipped labs, have teaching aides, have libraries with modern facilities, etc etc etc.

Wanderer78 · 16-10-2015 9:26pm

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

I agree, education is just as important as healthcare...its just not necessary that engineers, software designers, scientists, architects, healthcare professionals, economists etc get their education here in Ireland when we obviously cannot afford to give them a 1st class education.

we pay a lot of money to keep the buildings open, the staff employed and pensioned, and then we pay the majority of the student fees, and then on top of that, we pay grants to nearly 50% of the students anyway and at the end of the day, the universities here are still not near as good as those elsewhere in Europe.....at some point does someone not just ask, is it best to stop trying to catch up?
We can keep 1 or 2 institutes open to keep studies in Irish law/language/history etc alive, and maybe even keep a few research hubs going....but science is science, engineering is engineering....why not send the students to places that can afford qualified lecturers, fully equipped labs, have teaching aides, have libraries with modern facilities, etc etc etc.

a very worrying view of our educational system. believe it or not, if you closed wit, you ll find half the town would become unemployed almost immediately. id say you d be shocked of the amount of direct and indirect employment it creates and you d end up creating a serious problem for many home owners to. so if you take that and project it to other towns and cities around the country, id say you d be creating a lot of very serious problems nationwide. i personally think all education should be free for all, always. its an investment in our society. im becoming deeply concerned of the cost of education in this country. if we keep going like this, only a certain class of people will be truly only able to gain a good level of education here. this will widen the inequality gap and subsequently widen the wealth gap to. ive only ever been educated here so i cant compare our system to other countries but i suspect we aint too bad. a cousin of mine is currently teaching in abu dhabi. said their system was very poor when he first started there but has improved a lot since. so i think we re not doing too bad here but im sure theres many improvements to be made. i am now starting to realise major failings in our system myself. its all relative i guess. i find it very strange you disregard the sciences etc. very odd indeed. like all aspects of study, all these areas evolve and require people to do so.

fiachr_a · 17-10-2015 12:52pm

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

I agree, education is just as important as healthcare...its just not necessary that engineers, software designers, scientists, architects, healthcare professionals, economists etc get their education here in Ireland when we obviously cannot afford to give them a 1st class education.

Kids with 600 LC points should not go to college in Ireland.

imacman · 18-10-2015 1:30am

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

I agree, education is just as important as healthcare...its just not necessary that engineers, software designers, scientists, architects, healthcare professionals, economists etc get their education here in Ireland when we obviously cannot afford to give them a 1st class education.

we pay a lot of money to keep the buildings open, the staff employed and pensioned, and then we pay the majority of the student fees, and then on top of that, we pay grants to nearly 50% of the students anyway and at the end of the day, the universities here are still not near as good as those elsewhere in Europe.....at some point does someone not just ask, is it best to stop trying to catch up?
We can keep 1 or 2 institutes open to keep studies in Irish law/language/history etc alive, and maybe even keep a few research hubs going....but science is science, engineering is engineering....why not send the students to places that can afford qualified lecturers, fully equipped labs, have teaching aides, have libraries with modern facilities, etc etc etc.

wow what a load of Bs , if you apply your argument what don't we send all the sick people away to other countries and close it down all of the hospital to save money.
You are embarrassing yourself with your ignorance of the role of third level education in any society, you take no account of the ancillary economy that surrounds any third level institute and how it forms part of the local community. Never mind the fact that id we couldn't provide third level education to our youth in our country it would effectively be admitting we have failed as a nation.Your argument is a classic example of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing point of view

PolaroidPizza · 18-10-2015 10:24am

imacman wrote: »

wow what a load of Bs , if you apply your argument what don't we send all the sick people away to other countries and close it down all of the hospital to save money.
You are embarrassing yourself with your ignorance of the role of third level education in any society, you take no account of the ancillary economy that surrounds any third level institute and how it forms part of the local community. Never mind the fact that id we couldn't provide third level education to our youth in our country it would effectively be admitting we have failed as a nation.Your argument is a classic example of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing point of view

we're already sending people abroad for treatment. what we are not doing is keeping local hospitals open in regions where the standard of care isn't meeting minimum standards.
theres an even bigger ancillary economy around healthcare, bit that hasn't stopped people seeing the bigger picture, making hard decisions and admitting it doesn't make sense to have so many places that providing mediocre care instead of consolidating and providing 1st class care.

the same logic should go for universities.

Steve456 · 18-10-2015 10:48am

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

we're already sending people abroad for treatment. what we are not doing is keeping local hospitals open in regions where the standard of care isn't meeting minimum standards [...] the same logic should go for universities.

Where, exactly, are you suggesting we send Irish students? Most European university systems are complaining about lack of resources just as the Irish are.

imacman · 18-10-2015 2:03pm

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

we're already sending people abroad for treatment. what we are not doing is keeping local hospitals open in regions where the standard of care isn't meeting minimum standards.
theres an even bigger ancillary economy around healthcare, bit that hasn't stopped people seeing the bigger picture, making hard decisions and admitting it doesn't make sense to have so many places that providing mediocre care instead of consolidating and providing 1st class care.

the same logic should go for universities.

The treatment abroad scheme has a 2 million budget and has sent 2000 people abroad for treatment for in the last 5 years.To compare that to the whole third level system in Ireland shows how ludicrously stupid your argument is.Toddle on and stop embarrassing yourself

PolaroidPizza · 18-10-2015 10:24pm

Steve456 wrote: »

Where, exactly, are you suggesting we send Irish students? Most European university systems are complaining about lack of resources just as the Irish are.

for a start, Germany and Netherlands have massively expanded their international student programmes due to their massive demographic programmes.

I'm not surprised its a proposal that gets peoples backs up. People haven't even accepted there's a problem with 3rd level education here, never mind come up with a different way to tackle it.

imacman · 18-10-2015 10:35pm

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

for a start, Germany and Netherlands have massively expanded their international student programmes due to their massive demographic programmes.

I'm not surprised its a proposal that gets peoples backs up. People haven't even accepted there's a problem with 3rd level education here, never mind come up with a different way to tackle it.

This whole argument is irrelevant anyway as this idea would never fly politically ,
socially or logistically for the students themselves.Its just a strawman argument , lets get back to discussing the future of a Uni for the south east

imacman · 20-10-2015 11:11am

Some more good commentary from Ferdinand von Prondzynski, ex president of DCU and now Principal and Vice-Chancellor of Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen . A real educator talking sense rather than local parish pump politicians or vested interests talking about the "region"
https://universitydiary.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/waterford-and-carlow-and-the-strange-tale-of-a-proposed-technical-university/

To quote

Secondly, and crucially, it is completely baffling why anyone would think that a merger should make two institutions more suited to be universities. The Waterford example is an instructive one. As I have suggested (and as many others have also concluded), very good arguments can be made for university status for WIT. However, the institute has been told that it can only be considered for such a status if it first merges with Carlow Institute of Technology. Carlow is a perfectly good institute, but has nowhere near the same claim for university status as Waterford. It has a much more modest research profile, and generally has a profile that is extremely valuable but not typical of a university. So how are we to make sense of the proposition that WIT is not good enough to be a university, but that if it merges with a weaker institute (and one with which it has no record of strategic collaboration) it will be more eligible? Frankly, this is totally crazy.

Finally, there is no evidence that mergers between institutions based in different locations are a good idea. Those that have been tried have more often than not failed. There is, simply, a need for Irish policy makers more generally to stop thinking of mergers as a good solution to anything. The fixation on this objective has the potential to do damage to the system

imacman · 20-10-2015 4:41pm

Bit of reading in this , the the WIT vision for the SETU
http://www.wit.ie/images/uploads/About_PDF/Vision_for_WIT_and_SETU.pdf

fiachr_a · 24-10-2015 1:33pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i find it upsetting and kinna disturbing when people say we should just close our educational facilities. id class educational matters almost as important as health care issues as education creates options for people and probably most importantly, hope for individuals.

No it doesn't. Most of these colleges are complete waste of time and money. Most students will either drop out or do something different after college and will never use their degree. This education for all nonsense is one of the biggest mistakes the country made in recent years. A generation of people going to some 3rd rate college doing crappy courses with no jobs prospect ending up too qualified for retail or manual work.

Wanderer78 · 24-10-2015 7:34pm

fiachr_a wrote: »

No it doesn't. Most of these colleges are complete waste of time and money. Most students will either drop out or do something different after college and will never use their degree. This education for all nonsense is one of the biggest mistakes the country made in recent years. A generation of people going to some 3rd rate college doing crappy courses with no jobs prospect ending up too qualified for retail or manual work.

yea your right, im wrong!

..... that was easier!

obezyana · 24-10-2015 10:18pm

fiachr_a wrote: »

No it doesn't. Most of these colleges are complete waste of time and money. Most students will either drop out or do something different after college and will never use their degree. This education for all nonsense is one of the biggest mistakes the country made in recent years. A generation of people going to some 3rd rate college doing crappy courses with no jobs prospect ending up too qualified for retail or manual work.

That is a pretty negative view you have there. Can you provide the evidence of what you claim about most students dropping out or doing something different. If some one decides to go to college for whatever reason or whatever their age etc what does it matter to you. Maybe they are driven enough to see out their degree/masters so they don't turn out as bitter towards their education or place of education you seem to come across as being, also I am pretty sure the reason why alot of folks these days are not using their degrees is because of the economy not their lack of interest in using their degree.

imacman · 25-10-2015 12:57am

fiachr_a wrote: »

No it doesn't. Most of these colleges are complete waste of time and money. Most students will either drop out or do something different after college and will never use their degree. This education for all nonsense is one of the biggest mistakes the country made in recent years. A generation of people going to some 3rd rate college doing crappy courses with no jobs prospect ending up too qualified for retail or manual work.

Most colleges are a waste of time and money hmm thats a sweeping statement and is incorrect.Fact is our move from an agriculture based poor country to what we are today was based on an increase of the level of education of our workforce.Yes there are rubbish courses and some people shouldn't really attend third level as they are not academic but that is only a small part of a system that is the foundation of our econmey

fiachr_a · 27-10-2015 6:23pm

The facts back this up. Sending your kid to a weak college dong a Mickey Mouse degree only causes debt problems and gives them a sense of entitlement to emigrate. Read the papers where some twat moved to Australia saying they won't return because the Government won't create jobs in their expertise. Even in the Celtic Tiger years there were no jobs for a lot of these graduates. This education for all is a big scam and a waste of taxpayers' money. It's going to get worse in the next few years as more as more people go to college. Our national hockey team is more world class than any Irish college.

PolaroidPizza · 27-10-2015 9:18pm

fiachr_a wrote: »

Our national hockey team is more world class than any Irish college.

well said.
the sooner we admit this as a society, the sooner we can stop these mickey mouse conversations about regional universities and start focusing on the entire 3rd level system as a whole.
Irish graduates are competing against an increasingly mobile international graduate workforce, and increasingly, irish graduates are falling behind.

imacman · 28-10-2015 10:49am

fiachr_a wrote: »

The facts back this up. Sending your kid to a weak college dong a Mickey Mouse degree only causes debt problems and gives them a sense of entitlement to emigrate. Read the papers where some twat moved to Australia saying they won't return because the Government won't create jobs in their expertise. Even in the Celtic Tiger years there were no jobs for a lot of these graduates. This education for all is a big scam and a waste of taxpayers' money. It's going to get worse in the next few years as more as more people go to college. Our national hockey team is more world class than any Irish college.

Wow sounds like a bizarre rant from some one who has had a bad experience with third level.

obezyana · 28-10-2015 12:04pm

imacman wrote: »

Wow sounds like a bizarre rant from some one who has had a bad experience with third level.

That is what it comes across as alright. Every comment is bitter.

imacman · 28-10-2015 12:24pm

fiachr_a wrote: »

The facts back this up. Sending your kid to a weak college dong a Mickey Mouse degree only causes debt problems and gives them a sense of entitlement to emigrate. Read the papers where some twat moved to Australia saying they won't return because the Government won't create jobs in their expertise. Even in the Celtic Tiger years there were no jobs for a lot of these graduates. This education for all is a big scam and a waste of taxpayers' money. It's going to get worse in the next few years as more as more people go to college. Our national hockey team is more world class than any Irish college.

Why don't you pop down to college street and tell all of the students graduating today that they have a Mickey Mouse degree and have no future.

wellboytoo · 28-10-2015 3:16pm

imacman wrote: »

Wow sounds like a bizarre rant from some one who has had a bad experience with third level.

No it's par for the course with him, he is bitter and cynical in all his comments on any subject.

fiachr_a · 28-10-2015 6:22pm

I might be but have data to back it up. Even this week's N&S, p65 shows how out of date this debate is: City states case for 36m university. That report was from 1985.

obezyana · 28-10-2015 10:51pm

fiachr_a wrote: »

I might be but have data to back it up. Even this week's N&S, p65 shows how out of date this debate is: City states case for 36m university. That report was from 1985.

Its one thing saying the debate about University status is out of date it is another thing suggesting people getting degrees are at nothing. Silly comments that make you come across as a bitter person that has a bee in his bonnet about third level education in Ireland.

Can I ask you this.

Have you attended a third level institution in Ireland and if so which one?

Have you attended a third level institution abroad and if so which one and what set it apart from one in Ireland?

Have you a degree/masters etc?

If so to question 1 then what happened that made you seem so bitter and was it that you failed so therefore did not receive a qualification?

Maybe those questions may seem intrusive to you but I am trying to guess why you are against third level institutions in Ireland whilst praising what is on offer abroad.

If you did not attended any college/uni at home or abroad then what experience have you got that qualifies you to criticise third level schools here. Of course you have a right to your opinion but I don't think its right when it is aimed at having a go at people who are trying to better themselves for whatever reason. Some people do it for a better career choice some for personal goals some do it because its what mammy and daddy want but at the end of the day it is up to the individual and any individual that choose to study in WIT is guaranteed to get a good education regardless of the level they choose. Maybe that is one of the reasons why Waterford deserves University status.

In some ways i pity that your eyes seem closed to seeing the bigger picture and that is, if the WIT was not there then Waterford would be nothing, if people did not have the option of going to get a degree/masters etc then this country would still be in the 1950s. Progression one of the things which keeps us moving maybe it is time for the WIT to progress to a University in order to keep us moving in the right way. I for one would be very proud to receive a degree in WIT and hopefully such a thing is not so far away and your ignorant comments wont keep me from getting such a thing.

PolaroidPizza · 29-10-2015 12:59pm

obezyana wrote: »

Its one thing saying the debate about University status is out of date it is another thing suggesting people getting degrees are at nothing. Silly comments that make you come across as a bitter person that has a bee in his bonnet about third level education in Ireland.

Can I ask you this.

Have you attended a third level institution in Ireland and if so which one?

Have you attended a third level institution abroad and if so which one and what set it apart from one in Ireland?

Have you a degree/masters etc?

If so to question 1 then what happened that made you seem so bitter and was it that you failed so therefore did not receive a qualification?

.

what does his/her education history got to do with the facts? the fact is that 3rd level institutions currently are about 1billion euro underfunded.
with an increasing population, that number will just increase.
most parties think that some sort of student loan system is the only way of making up the difference without significantly raising taxes.
so the question is....when we cannot afford the current system, how does it make sense to upgrade WIT ?

you may agree/disagree about the quality of education currently available, but you cannot disagree with the numbers.
( I believe it's significantly below our competitors, having obtained a PhD here, and having work in 3rd level institutes Canada, Belgium and Austria).

Max Powers · 29-10-2015 2:28pm

fiachr_a wrote: »

The facts back this up. Sending your kid to a weak college dong a Mickey Mouse degree only causes debt problems and gives them a sense of entitlement to emigrate. Read the papers where some twat moved to Australia saying they won't return because the Government won't create jobs in their expertise. Even in the Celtic Tiger years there were no jobs for a lot of these graduates. This education for all is a big scam and a waste of taxpayers' money. It's going to get worse in the next few years as more as more people go to college. Our national hockey team is more world class than any Irish college.

Agree with previous poster, these posts just sound bitter, overly cynical, etc. I wonder what you mean by all these mickey mouse colleges and courses, to be fair there aren't many mickey mouse courses out there when compared with the vast majority who do stuff that is connected to the jobs out there. Sure, what job can you get with a degree from trinity in Latin but those things are a tiny percentage. As for world class Universities, we don't need them, we cant afford them, we are a tiny country and are never gonna have a MIT, Cambridge etc,, we dont have the population, money etc. What we need is good degrees from good colleges, that's achievable.

obezyana · 29-10-2015 6:03pm

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

what does his/her education history got to do with the facts? the fact is that 3rd level institutions currently are about 1billion euro underfunded.
with an increasing population, that number will just increase.
most parties think that some sort of student loan system is the only way of making up the difference without significantly raising taxes.
so the question is....when we cannot afford the current system, how does it make sense to upgrade WIT ?

you may agree/disagree about the quality of education currently available, but you cannot disagree with the numbers.
( I believe it's significantly below our competitors, having obtained a PhD here, and having work in 3rd level institutes Canada, Belgium and Austria).

He seems very bitter towards third level in Ireland and I am just wondering why he seems that way. Surely he must have some experience or maybe he didnt manage to receive a mickey mouse degree.

There is obviously better places to go to college but WIT isnt a bad place and of one gets an education there then it is going to be good enough to gain employment and recognition throughout the world.

fiachr_a · 29-10-2015 6:36pm

obezyana wrote: »

That is a pretty negative view you have there. Can you provide the evidence of what you claim about most students dropping out or doing something different.

The highest non-progression rate in the IT sector was at Waterford IT (21 per cent)
http://www.thejournal.ie/hea-report-student-drop-out-rates-1241851-Dec2013/

Waterford University discussion

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