Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

RWC'15 Pool D: Ireland vs Italy, RWC. KO Sunday 4:45PM TV3/ITV1

Options
1…2930323435…40

Comments

  • Options
    #932
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,079 ✭✭✭techdiver


    noway12345 wrote: »
    We kicked the ball all day, he wasn't given a chance. None of the back line were. However in his limited attacking opportunities Earls scored a try and made two half breaks with attempted offloads, one where Kearney should have collected and he was clean through. I don't see how you can claim he was poorer in defence either. Italy never got through midfield and they were held to 3 penalties. I'd have Earls on the wing but I wouldn't have Payne in the centre, the problem is we don't have a choice now if he's fit.

    That's what we always do though, so why doesn't Payne get the same consideration about his attacking threat when that happens?


  • Options
    #933
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    This still adds up to him not being a suitable centre for Ireland.

    No, it adds up to him not being a suitable centre for Ireland under the current coach and tactics. That doesn't mean that he can't be a great centre in the future for Ireland.


  • Options
    #934
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    noway12345 wrote: »
    If we were playing the sort of game that suits Earls

    It doesn't work that way, you don't build a team around one players skill set. Sure why don't we put Toner and 13 and recruit 14 other 6"10 players so we can just repeatedly pass over everyone's head to suit his play style. Nonsense argument.

    noway12345 wrote: »
    His vision and distribution has been very good in this World Cup. Defensively I'd have Payne ahead but overall Earls has more potential to be a far better 13 than Payne.

    He absolutely doesn't. He's 28 and doesn't show any of the qualities you look for in a centre to a high level. He's a good rugby player and has buckets of skills, but he is an ordinary centre so far. Will he improve? I hope so, we need more options at both inside and outside centre. But there is nothing to suggest that he is a better centre than Payne yet. Not even close.


  • Options
    #935
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,785 ✭✭✭✭phog


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    This still adds up to him not being a suitable centre for Ireland.

    Why has Joe picked him if he's not suitable?


  • Options
    #936
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    techdiver wrote: »
    That's what we always do though, so why doesn't Payne get the same consideration about his attacking threat when that happens?

    We didn't kick all day against Romania, in fact we ran far more. Payne still couldn't make a line break!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #937
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It doesn't work that way, you don't build a team around one players skill set. Sure why don't we put Toner and 13 and recruit 14 other 6"10 players so we can just repeatedly pass over everyone's head to suit his play style. Nonsense argument.




    He absolutely doesn't. He's 28 and doesn't show any of the qualities you look for in a centre to a high level. He's a good rugby player and has buckets of skills, but he is an ordinary centre so far. Will he improve? I hope so, we need more options at both inside and outside centre. But there is nothing to suggest that he is a better centre than Payne yet. Not even close.

    Your argument is nonsense. We're playing hoof ball tactics. This doesn't suit Earls at centre, if we were playing a passing, offloading game then it would suit Earls. As it is we still have better options than Payne for outside centre.

    How old is Payne? Where has he played mostly for Ulster? Earls has far mkore potential for that position than Payne ever had. Give him a year at centre and he'd be far ahead of Payne.


  • Options
    #938
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    noway12345 wrote: »
    No, it adds up to him not being a suitable centre for Ireland under the current coach and tactics. That doesn't mean that he can't be a great centre in the future for Ireland.

    There are loads of players could be a great centre for Ireland in the future and/or under different set ups. The argument you're having is Earls vs Payne and that's got nothing to do with the future. They are playing now under Joe Schmidt and the system that he has put in place. You say IF we changed our entire style of play to suit Earls and IF all the other players were programmed to play in a way that suited him then he could be a brilliant centre. That may well be true, I doubt it, but I can't prove it wouldn't happen. It is however a ridiculous amount of hypotheticals that again have no bearing on the current discussion of Earls vs Payne.
    phog wrote: »
    Why has Joe picked him if he's not suitable?

    I'm not saying he is a bad player, I'm saying I'd prefer Payne over him all the time. Joe picked him yesterday, I assume, because he's been in good form on the wing, he obviously trusted him to do the job asked of him more than he did Cave or Fitzgerald, and obviously Payne wasn't available.


  • Options
    #939
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    noway12345 wrote: »
    Your argument is nonsense. We've won back to back six nations and reached no.2 in the world playing hoof ball tactics.

    FYP
    noway12345 wrote: »
    This doesn't suit Earls at centre, if we were playing a passing, offloading game then it would suit Earls.

    Earls butchered two offloads at the weekend. Both of which were his fault, not Kearney's knees or hands, Earls. Go back and watch it if you believe otherwise.
    noway12345 wrote: »
    How old is Payne? Where has he played mostly for Ulster? Earls has far mkore potential for that position than Payne ever had. Give him a year at centre and he'd be far ahead of Payne.

    Payne has a more natural awareness of what goes on around him and how play is flowing and he has a better distributing skill set, all of which allowed him to adapt to centre. Earls doesn't have these things or hasn't shown them.


  • Options
    #940
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    There are loads of players could be a great centre for Ireland in the future and/or under different set ups. The argument you're having is Earls vs Payne and that's got nothing to do with the future. They are playing now under Joe Schmidt and the system that he has put in place. You say IF we changed our entire style of play to suit Earls and IF all the other players were programmed to play in a way that suited him then he could be a brilliant centre. That may well be true, I doubt it, but I can't prove it wouldn't happen. It is however a ridiculous amount of hypotheticals that again have no bearing on the current discussion of Earls vs Payne.



    I'm not saying he is a bad player, I'm saying I'd prefer Payne over him all the time. Joe picked him yesterday, I assume, because he's been in good form on the wing, he obviously trusted him to do the job asked of him more than he did Cave or Fitzgerald, and obviously Payne wasn't available.

    No it's not. I think Earls should be on the wing but I think he'd be a better centre than Payne with different tactics. Even currently he offers more in attack than Payne but it's too late to be putting him there. Henshaw is our best 13 at present.


  • Options
    #941
    WarZ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 972 ✭✭✭WarZ


    Tobyglen wrote: »
    SOB & Heaslip would need to stand up, both were bang average against a poor Italian team. Stats can sway lots of things but SOB is nowhere near his top level. Favaro?? Got the better of SOB, hate to see what Hooper & Pocock could do at breakdown.

    So the two back row players who made the most gain line yards, most tackles, most rucks hit and least infringements need to stand up?

    But the player who made 3 tackles, was not even in the top 5 for gain line yards in the pack, gave away more infringements than the other two back row combined and was yellow carded is curiously not singled out.

    hmmmm


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #942
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    Deleted User wrote: »
    FYP



    Earls butchered two offloads at the weekend. Both of which were his fault, not Kearney's knees or hands, Earls. Go back and watch it if you believe otherwise.



    Payne has a more natural awareness of what goes on around him and how play is flowing and he has a better distributing skill set, all of which allowed him to adapt to centre. Earls doesn't have these things or hasn't shown them.

    You didn't fix my post, you just added on something!

    Kearney messed up the second offload chance but you miss the point. If we were playing that sort of game then the other players would be on the same wavelenght. Playing that sort of game would suit Earls and he'd be a superb centre given time. Currently Payne is ahead of him because of tactics, game plan etc.

    Payne has been very average at centre, his defence is good but he offers little in attack. Henshaw is far ahead of him.


  • Options
    #943
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    noway12345 wrote: »
    No it's not. I think Earls should be on the wing but I think he'd be a better centre than Payne with different tactics. Even currently he offers more in attack than Payne but it's too late to be putting him there. Henshaw is our best 13 at present.

    See you're having two different conversations here. I could argue the same for any number of players. Change your tactics to suit individual players and they're bound to look better than the guy who was playing there as part of a team based game plan.

    I'll admit I haven't seen that much of Earls at 13 or in a team built to suit him specifically but what I have seen is Payne play in matches against South Africa, Australia, England, France etc. etc. that we've won. Case closed.


  • Options
    #944
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    noway12345 wrote: »
    We kicked the ball all day, he wasn't given a chance. None of the back line were. However in his limited attacking opportunities Earls scored a try and made two half breaks with attempted offloads, one where Kearney should have collected and he was clean through. I don't see how you can claim he was poorer in defence either. Italy never got through midfield and they were held to 3 penalties. I'd have Earls on the wing but I wouldn't have Payne in the centre, the problem is we don't have a choice now if he's fit.

    Don't agree at all. I like Earls on the wing and think he's a talented player but I think he's very limited in the centre.

    Two attempts at offloads and neither came through. I know you've been arguing it's Kearney's fault for not taking the second one but myself and I think a few others are of the opinion that it was never going to come off. The other offload I think we can all agree was completely brainless, there was absolutely no chance that ball was ever doing anything but going in to touch.

    Defensively he was fairly weak. Running into an Italian winger(?) at pace after he'd just caught the ball and bouncing off him really stands out. He showed flashes of promise in attack but overall I'd take fitz or cave ahead of him in the centre any day.

    EDIT: Also wouldn't be lauding Earls for the try, Henshaw and Sexton(I think?) made that try if I remember correctly, Earls put a good finish on it.


  • Options
    #945
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    See you're having two different conversations here. I could argue the same for any number of players. Change your tactics to suit individual players and they're bound to look better than the guy who was playing there as part of a team based game plan.

    I'll admit I haven't seen that much of Earls at 13 or in a team built to suit him specifically but what I have seen is Payne play in matches against South Africa, Australia, England, France etc. etc. that we've won. Case closed.

    Indeed, one could very easily argue that Payne could be a better centre with different tactics suited to him.


  • Options
    #946
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    noway12345 wrote: »
    If we were playing that sort of game then the other players would be on the same wavelenght. Playing that sort of game would suit Earls and he'd be a superb centre given time. Currently Payne is ahead of him because of tactics, game plan etc.

    Payne has been very average at centre, his defence is good but he offers little in attack. Henshaw is far ahead of him.

    What you're saying there is that currently Payne is a better choice for that position than Earls. Which is what the rest of us are saying.


  • Options
    #947
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    noway12345 wrote: »
    You didn't fix my post, you just added on something!

    but you miss the point.

    I know what your point is. Let's completely change the way Ireland play to accommodate one player and make him look like a good centre. Or we could just find a good centre who can adapt to different play styl...Payne!


  • Options
    #948
    Mr Tickle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    to be honest if we wanted to change our centre partnership at the moment (We shouldn't btw) the first thing i'd like to see would be to just switch Payne and henshaw.
    It seems might it might make good use of Payne's distribution and ball security as well as Henshaw's ability to make a break given slightly more space.
    I'd just like to see it played a couple of times to see how it compares.


  • Options
    #949
    WarZ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 972 ✭✭✭WarZ


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Indeed, one could very easily argue that Payne could be a better centre with different tactics suited to him.

    Ditto Heaslip. has to do a lot more grunt work (and a lot more tackles considering our current starting blindside refuses to tackle and barely averages above 3 tackles per game....I think I remember an England game where he made literally 0 tackles!)

    Sorry to bang the same drum but I do think Ireland's biggest issue right now is Peter O'Mahony. He has unbalanced our backrow and restrains Heaslip and more important SOB. He doesn't tackle, he doesn't carry over the gainline, he gives away infringements so can someone tell me why he is still there? He was good two seasons ago, now.....distinctively poor to average. Henderson is even more of a machine at 6 lets play him there and free up Toner to improve our stuttering rolling maul and gain lineout dominance!!!


  • Options
    #950
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Bazzo wrote: »
    EDIT: Also wouldn't be lauding Earls for the try, Henshaw and Sexton(I think?) made that try if I remember correctly, Earls put a good finish on it.

    Heaslip, Henderson, Sexton and Henshaw were the main ones involved in that try. Earls, arguably, ran a line that allowed Henshaw the space but even then I'm not sure, the defender didn't look like he was following Earls at all and still got to Henshaw. Earls was in the right place at the right time, which I suppose is his job (and very nearly lost the ball ;))

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKl-p_L4xR0


  • Options
    #951
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    WarZ wrote: »
    Ditto Heaslip. has to do a lot more grunt work (and a lot more tackles considering our current starting blindside refuses to tackle and barely averages above 3 tackles per game....I think I remember an England game where he made literally 0 tackles!)

    Sorry to bang the same drum but I do think Ireland's biggest issue right now is Peter O'Mahony. He has unbalanced our backrow and restrains Heaslip and more important SOB. He doesn't tackle, he doesn't carry over the gainline, he gives away infringements so can someone tell me why he is still there? He was good two seasons ago, now.....distinctively poor to average. Henderson is even more of a machine at 6 lets play him there and free up Toner to improve our stuttering rolling maul and gain lineout dominance!!!

    Toner gives us more on our own lineout, but part of the benefit of POM being quite light for a back row is that we lift him into competitive positions to steal very quickly. So in terms of lineout dominance you would almost want both. Not debating the rest of your point, but there is a reason POM steals a good bit of lineout ball.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #952
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Toner gives us more on our own lineout, but part of the benefit of POM being quite light for a back row is that we lift him into competitive positions to steal. So in terms of lineout dominance you would almost want both. Not debating the rest of your point, but there is a reason POM steals a good bit of lineout ball.

    He stole the ball that lead to our only try yesterday.


  • Options
    #953
    WarZ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 972 ✭✭✭WarZ


    That was absolutely beautiful by Sexton to be honest.


  • Options
    #954
    WarZ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 972 ✭✭✭WarZ


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    He stole the ball that lead to our only try yesterday.

    Lets be realistic here, that lineout is a shambles. He just happened to be in the front. If Toner was there I reckon we would have stolen a lot more lineouts.

    Imagine Henderson, who actually is a second row was where POM was and then we had Toner and O'Connell as well! You'd have three second rows in a lineout!


  • Options
    #955
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    noway12345 wrote: »
    Earls offers far more in attack than Payne. Making breaks and offloading isn't encouraged though. Our game is so limited, Earls could be a great outside centre but not in the style we currently adopt.

    As has been said before the ability to break the line in midfield is not really that relevant in the modern game. Particularly at the higher levels of the game where the defences are simply too good to offer up the space required.


  • Options
    #956
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    WarZ wrote: »
    Lets be realistic here, that lineout is a shambles. He just happened to be in the front. If Toner was there I reckon we would have stolen a lot more lineouts.

    Imagine Henderson, who actually is a second row was where POM was and then we had Toner and O'Connell as well! You'd have three second rows in a lineout!

    Yeah but Henderson and Toner are both really heavy. Toner is used more to reduce options on opposition line out, he isn't lifted to steal anymore than anyone else.

    Stealing a line out is often down to quickly reading where the ball is going and getting someone up in front of the other lifter as fast as possible so the lighter player is more useful.


  • Options
    #957
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    See you're having two different conversations here. I could argue the same for any number of players. Change your tactics to suit individual players and they're bound to look better than the guy who was playing there as part of a team based game plan.

    I'll admit I haven't seen that much of Earls at 13 or in a team built to suit him specifically but what I have seen is Payne play in matches against South Africa, Australia, England, France etc. etc. that we've won. Case closed.

    I'm saying Earls for the future could be an amazing 13 but it has to be an attacking game plan to show his talents. That's one part of the conversation. Currently Payne is ahead of him because he's played there far more, it's not to say that Earls couldn't do what Payne does but you have to restrict Earls game to do that.
    The second part of the conversation is that Payne or Earls isn't our best 13 currently. Henshaw is.


  • Options
    #958
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    Bazzo wrote: »
    Don't agree at all. I like Earls on the wing and think he's a talented player but I think he's very limited in the centre.

    Two attempts at offloads and neither came through. I know you've been arguing it's Kearney's fault for not taking the second one but myself and I think a few others are of the opinion that it was never going to come off. The other offload I think we can all agree was completely brainless, there was absolutely no chance that ball was ever doing anything but going in to touch.

    Defensively he was fairly weak. Running into an Italian winger(?) at pace after he'd just caught the ball and bouncing off him really stands out. He showed flashes of promise in attack but overall I'd take fitz or cave ahead of him in the centre any day.

    EDIT: Also wouldn't be lauding Earls for the try, Henshaw and Sexton(I think?) made that try if I remember correctly, Earls put a good finish on it.

    The offloads wouldn't make a difference in the current set up. It's hoof ball only. I'm saying in the future under different tactics the offloads and general attacking game from Earls could make him a superb 13.

    It was a poor attempt at that tackle but when did Italy break through the centre? It was solid all day.


  • Options
    #959
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    What you're saying there is that currently Payne is a better choice for that position than Earls. Which is what the rest of us are saying.

    Under the current tactics and with far more game time obviously Payne is ahead of Earls. That's not what we've been discussing. We've been discussing whether Earls can make a great centre and whether he'd be better than Payne.


  • Options
    #960
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    noway12345 wrote: »
    I'm saying Earls for the future could be an amazing 13 but it has to be an attacking game plan to show his talents. That's one part of the conversation. Currently Payne is ahead of him because he's played there far more, it's not to say that Earls couldn't do what Payne does but you have to restrict Earls game to do that.
    The second part of the conversation is that Payne or Earls isn't our best 13 currently. Henshaw is.

    How many times have we seen a 13 break the line against tier 1 opposition so far?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #961
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I know what your point is. Let's completely change the way Ireland play to accommodate one player and make him look like a good centre. Or we could just find a good centre who can adapt to different play styl...Payne!

    We can't change our tactics now, it has to be Payne that starts. I'm saying in the future under different tactics Earls could be a brilliant centre playing alongside all our other attacking options. I prefer him on the wing though.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement