New SI released, changes to licencing upcoming.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:00pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

This SI only deals with short firearms. Where's the legislation that puts applying for semi auto centrefire rifles on hold until there's an authority to deal with that?

Not yet released. That'll have to be... ah. Oh crap. An actual Act.
/headdesk

Didn't think of that.

/looks for place to go hide for a year

edit: They still have a template from 2009 to use, but yeah, they'll have to pass an Act and that means the whole circus, right before an election. ****e.

Man. Finian McGrath debating with Michael Healy-Rae across the floor of the Dail about our stuff.

Can we legalise recreational narcotics first? Please? They don't make tequila strong enough to watch that kind of ****e...

BattleCorp · 18-09-2015 3:08pm

Sparks wrote: »

Not yet released. That'll have to be... ah. Oh crap. An actual Act.
/headdesk

Didn't think of that.

/looks for place to go hide for a year

edit: They still have a template from 2009 to use, but yeah, they'll have to pass an Act and that means the whole circus, right before an election. ****e.

Man. Finian McGrath debating with Michael Healy-Rae across the floor of the Dail about our stuff.

Can we legalise recreational narcotics first? Please? They don't make tequila strong enough to watch that kind of ****e...

Like was mentioned earlier, it's probably on a to-do list. Hopefully it won't be touched before the election. The government would hardly want to p1ss off any more people coming up to the election.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:09pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Like was mentioned earlier, it's probably on a to-do list. Hopefully it won't be touched before the election. The government would hardly want to p1ss off any more people coming up to the election.

Your lips to the minister's ears...

edit: Actually, that came out way more dodgy-sounding than intended, sorry!

BattleCorp · 18-09-2015 3:10pm

Sparks wrote: »

Your lips to the minister's ears...

edit: Actually, that came out way more dodgy-sounding than intended, sorry!

Hey, if I thought it would help. :pac:

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:12pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Hey, if I thought it would help. :pac:

Love how you think it was you I was apologising to

gunhappy_ie · 18-09-2015 3:12pm

Just wondering ....... how much money are the state saving by bringing in a crowd of civilians to arbitrate instead of going to the courts ?

Having only quickly read through this verall Im happy with the results achieved. If this all goes ahead as proposed we could have a modern licencing system that allows for the growth of the sport (except centerfire pistols)

yubabill1 · 18-09-2015 3:17pm

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Just wondering ....... how much money are the state saving by bringing in a crowd of civilians to arbitrate instead of going to the courts ?

Having only quickly read through this verall Im happy with the results achieved. If this all goes ahead as proposed we could have a modern licencing system that allows for the growth of the sport (except centerfire pistols)

S/A C/F rifles to be capped = effective ban.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:17pm

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Just wondering ....... how much money are the state saving by bringing in a crowd of civilians to arbitrate instead of going to the courts ?

Quite a lot, but so are we. We never had a 100% success rate there, don't forget, not to mention the unrecoverable portion of your costs as laid out in your Section 68 letter. This is a positive development, at least as laid out so far; and it doesn't take away the courts route even if you do appeal this way. It just adds another step before you have to get on the phone to a solicitor.

Having only quickly read through this verall Im happy with the results achieved. If this all goes ahead as proposed we could have a modern licencing system that allows for the growth of the sport (except centerfire pistols)

And centerfire rifles.
But yes, there does appear to be a lot of positive stuff in there. Day one only, and all the normal caveats apply, but... yeah, that was a lot more positive than it might have been.

Grizzly 45 · 18-09-2015 3:22pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

S/A C/F rifles to be capped = effective ban.

Actually,its an already outdated act before the ink is even on the paper for the proposed act and Dail debate.;):D.Technology has already moved on again to make even this reduntant.

gunhappy_ie · 18-09-2015 3:22pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

S/A C/F rifles to be capped = effective ban.

Thats jumping the gun :P

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:27pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Technology has already moved on again to make even this reduntant.

For the love of all that's safe, please tell me you're not thinking of buying a bumpfire stock? Those things are one of the stupidest ideas I've ever come across.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:29pm

BTW, another point of note - no more barrel length restriction for .22lr handguns. Good news for Walther P22 owners.

In better news for Walther P22 owners, we make better handguns now and you can buy one :P

Deaf git · 18-09-2015 3:32pm

This SI solves a problem for me and for that I'm happy.
As for the rest of the Ministers statement, that will be lost among pre electioneering and budget and Christmas and God knows what.

But will AGS administer this SI any better? Waiting 4 weeks now for a sub on a anschutz 1717 (NIB and orgasmic to look at).

Grizzly 45 · 18-09-2015 3:36pm

ROTFLMAO!!! Sparks,I might be daft but I'm not that wealthy.Full auto and those kind of yokes are rich peoples playthings .308 at 75 euros for 50!!!
Errr ....NO! Keeping in mind the famous story of Shotgun slugs here on our little group and the DOJ making them restricted after the last debacle in 08 and they had "never heard of them" and a pending Dail act on possibly CF SA.I'll refrain from mentioning what exactly is out there that makes this obsolete already,and The man" if he is reading here can go find out for himself.;)

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:37pm

Hey, if it's not bumpfire Grizz, I'm fine with it. I like my .177 :P

Deaf git · 18-09-2015 3:38pm

Sparks wrote: »

BTW, another point of note - no more barrel length restriction for .22lr handguns. Good news for Walther P22 owners.

In better news for Walther P22 owners, we make better handguns now and you can buy one :P

Have you your deposit ready?

Grizzly 45 · 18-09-2015 3:39pm

Deaf git wrote: »

This SI solves a problem for me and for that I'm happy.
As for the rest of the Ministers statement, that will be lost among pre electioneering and budget and Christmas and God knows what.

But will AGS administer this SI any better? Waiting 4 weeks now for a sub on a anschutz 1717 (NIB and orgasmic to look at).

The Minister intends asking the Garda Inspectorate to review the administration of firearms licensing by An Garda Síochána, following the establishment and operation of the Firearms and Assessment Authority for a 12 month period.

The Minister has noted the Joint Oireachtas Committee recommendation that the Garda Inspectorate carry out an independent review of the current firearms licensing regime.

Given the changes now proposed, it is deemed more appropriate to review the administration of firearms licensing by An Garda Síochána when the new arrangements are in place for a 12 month period.

Guess they mightnt have got that memo just yet!Might be why things have been done by the book at the moment.

Tea drinker · 18-09-2015 3:43pm

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

(iii) firearms which are designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle
rim fire percussion ammunition and use magazines that have
been manufactured or modified prior to use so as to
accommodate no more than five rounds of ammunition”.

The key word there would be "modified" that could cover revolvers but since it refers only to "magazines" and not cylinders you could get a snaggy cop..... !

But that doesn't say magazine and firearm modified to carry max 5 rds or whatever way you would state that.
i.e. still that old chestnut about 1 in the spout and 5 in the mag. Or is it?

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:43pm

Deaf git wrote: »

Have you your deposit ready?

I dunno Deaf, I think my little air pistol is a better .22lr pistol than the P22

But yeah... that SSP... damn, that would be tempting...

Grizzly 45 · 18-09-2015 3:43pm

Sparks wrote: »

Hey, if it's not bumpfire Grizz, I'm fine with it. I like my .177 :P

When you could use your thumb and a belt trouser loop or a boot lace and sling swivels and have the same effect.Why bother?:P

Sparks · 18-09-2015 3:44pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

But that doesn't say magazine and firearm modified to carry max 5 rds or whatever way you would state that.
i.e. still that old chestnut about 1 in the spout and 5 in the mag. Or is it?

No, it sidesteps all that and just says the magazine has to be either manufactured or modified to hold only 5 rounds.

BattleCorp · 18-09-2015 3:50pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

But that doesn't say magazine and firearm modified to carry max 5 rds or whatever way you would state that.
i.e. still that old chestnut about 1 in the spout and 5 in the mag. Or is it?

If you are shooting a string of six shots, unfortunately you will still need to have one up the spout. That hasn't changed.

It would have made things so much better if they had increased the mag capacity to six. So so much better.

Grizzly 45 · 18-09-2015 4:03pm

It could also have been a darn sight 100% worse too!!Yeah irratating alright but IF and WHEN this is all finally rolled out ,we do have the possibility of changing things around with the FCP,so long as no one throws their toys out of the pram again on both sides.In fairness,this looks like a pretty good package sofar.The Devil AFAICS is in the future details of what guns are "appropriate" to be liscensed.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 4:04pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

When you could use your thumb and a belt trouser loop or a boot lace and sling swivels and have the same effect.Why bother?:P

Well, (a) I wouldn't 'cos I like the bit where I hit the target, not the bit where I fire the rifle; (b) because if that sort of thing took off, you'd see an even sharper crackdown and we'd see it applied to any S/A firearm, whether that be rifle, pistol or shotgun...

IrishTarget · 18-09-2015 4:04pm

Will this now sort out the number of JRs and HC case to do with .22 pistols?

Or is it a case on waiting on an other SI to sort it.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 4:06pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It could also have been a darn sight 100% worse too!!Yeah irratating alright but IF and WHEN this is all finally rolled out ,we do have the possibility of changing things around with the FCP,so long as no one throws their toys out of the pram again on both sides.In fairness,this looks like a pretty good package sofar.The Devil AFAICS is in the future details of what guns are "appropriate" to be liscensed.

Yeah, I really hate being optimistic, but this actually doesn't look horrible at all. And even the bits in it that aren't all that great... well, they're pretty much solidly down to shooters rather than politicians which is a change, if not a pleasant one.

I still want to see the details, but... yeah.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 4:07pm

IrishTarget wrote: »

Will this now sort out the number of JRs and HC case to do with .22 pistols?

Yes. This should short-circuit all of those. In practice if not in law specifically, because if you dropped your application and simultaneously resubmitted exactly the same one, it would no longer be held up over mag capacity concerns.

IrishTarget · 18-09-2015 4:09pm

Sparks wrote: »

Yes. This should short-circuit all of those. In practice if not in law specifically, because if you dropped your application and simultaneously resubmitted exactly the same one, it would no longer be held up over mag capacity concerns.

So, all current JRs and HC cases should be granted in favor of the applicants then? In theory of course!!

Sparks · 18-09-2015 4:15pm

IrishTarget wrote: »

So, all current JRs and HC cases should be granted in favor of the applicants then? In theory of course!!

I am not a barrister, this is not legal advice, but I would expect those cases to be dropped one way or another, and their applicants lives should now get a lot easier.

BattleCorp · 18-09-2015 4:20pm

Sparks wrote: »

I am not a barrister, this is not legal advice, but I would expect those cases to be dropped one way or another, and their applicants lives should now get a lot easier.

You don't get to go for your costs then, do you?

Sparks · 18-09-2015 4:23pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

You don't get to go for your costs then, do you?

Depends on how it ends, but I'd imagine not.

On the other hand, your costs are lower because you didn't get into the courtroom yet, which is where the astronomical sums rack up; and you're skipping that whole bit where you could lose because of some weird sidebar.

No such thing as a sure thing in a court, it's an adversarial system run by people!

turismo2142 · 18-09-2015 4:29pm

The issue is moot but they will no doubt still have a hearing as to costs which will involve some manner of consideration of the facts.

There was the leave stage, the costs of which will at least have to be considered.

No doubt they'll all be settled in some reduced way from a costs perspective.

gunhappy_ie · 18-09-2015 4:30pm

Sparks wrote: »

I am not a barrister, this is not legal advice, but I would expect those cases to be dropped one way or another, and their applicants lives should now get a lot easier.

"But your Honor Sparks told me ......." :P

Sparks · 18-09-2015 4:31pm

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

"But your Honor Sparks told me ......." :P

You would be unpleasantly surprised at how many more people than just me worry about that not being a joke

IrishTarget · 18-09-2015 4:39pm

Sparks wrote: »

I am not a barrister, this is not legal advice, but I would expect those cases to be dropped one way or another, and their applicants lives should now get a lot easier.

Of course and thanks for info.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 5:21pm

Press release out:
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Minister_Fitzgerald_announces_changes_to_Firearms_Licensing

Minister Fitzgerald announces changes to Firearms Licensing

· Proposal to establish new Firearms Assessment and Appeals Authority
· Immediate cap on licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic
rifles
· Minister signs new Statutory Instrument re-defining non-restricted
handguns
· An Garda Síochána to establish centralised licensing system for
restricted firearms
· Garda Inspectorate to review the administration of firearms licensing
· Re-establishment of Firearms Consultative Panel
· No changes to the licensing of shotguns and the vast majority of
rifles which make up 99% of licensed firearms in Ireland.

18 September, 2015

Minister Fitzgerald determined to prevent any proliferation of handgun
availability in Ireland while ensuring that target-shooting can continue in
a regulated manner

Frances Fitzgerald TD, Minister for Justice and Equality has today
announced a series of changes to the licensing of firearms in Ireland.

This follows widespread consultation with key stakeholders and hearings by
the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality and Defence on a report
from a Joint Garda Síochána / Department of Justice and Equality Working
Group published in November 2014.

The Minister thanked the Oireachtas Committee for their detailed
deliberations on this matter and she further thanked An Garda Siochana and
stakeholders including bodies representing rural and sporting interests for
their proactive engagement during the Minister’s consultations.

Minister Fitzgerald stated: “It is clear that there are different,
genuinely held views as to the approach which should be taken to the
licensing of firearms in Ireland, particularly in relation to handguns.”

“I share the concerns of An Garda Síochána in relation to public safety and
I am determined to prevent any proliferation of handgun availability in
Ireland. However, I also acknowledge the dedication and responsibility of
the owners of legally held firearms.

“I appreciate that certain measures must be taken in the context of the
current renewal cycle for firearms. Accordingly I am today announcing a
series of proposals which will address issues in the short term but also
maps out the longer term future for a licensing system which balances the
rights of those who wish to pursue their interests with public safety,
which has to be the paramount consideration.”

Minister Fitzgerald therefore decided on the following series of measures:

Establishment of a new Firearms Assessment and Appeals Authority
The Minister intends to make fundamental long term reforms of firearms
licensing by establishing a new Firearms Assessment and Appeals Authority.

The Minister has welcomed the Joint Oireachtas Committee recommendations in relation to the establishment of a national firearms control and advisory
licensing authority and an independent appeals process in relation to
decisions of An Garda Síochána.

The primary function of the Authority will be to determine, on the basis of
an objective assessment of all the issues, with safety of the public being
paramount, whether particular forms of firearms may be licensed in the
State, whether there should be any limit on the number of such firearms and
what safety conditions might properly be applied to their licensing. The
functions of the Authority will be subject to further consultation in
advance of the preparation of the necessary enabling legislation, which
will be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by the Joint Oireachtas
Committee.

Individual licensing decisions will continue to be made by members of An
Garda Síochána in the light of the determinations made by the Authority but
it is intended that the Authority will adjudicate on appeals from decisions
by An Garda Síochána. This will offer an alternative to the current system
of court appeals.

Immediate cap on licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic rifles
The Minister intends to introduce an immediate temporary cap on the
licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic rifles pending the
establishment and determination of the Authority.

Legislation will provide for the revocation of any licenses issued between
today (18 September 2015) and the enactment of the legislation and it is intended that anyone applying for licenses of this nature will be informed of that fact.

New Statutory Instrument re-defining non-restricted handguns
The Minister has this week signed a new Statutory Instrument re-defining
what constitutes a non-restricted handgun. This takes account of the Joint
Oireachtas Committee recommendation in relation to the need to introduce
secondary legislation in advance of the renewal of many firearms at this
time.

The purpose of this legislation is to ensure that, while the Minister, of
course, cannot interfere with individual licensing decisions, persons who
currently hold licenses for handguns will be able to reapply for a license
in the current licensing round. This legislation will clarify for An Garda
Síochána what firearms may be considered by them for licensing.

The Minister intends to monitor the number of 0.22 inch rim fire calibre
handguns being licensed. In line with her commitment to prevent any
proliferation of handgun availability in Ireland, the Minister today
announced that if there is a significant increase in the number of
applications for new certificates or import licence applications for these
handguns then she will introduce priority legislation for a future cap.

The current arrangements introduced in 2008 whereby no new licences will be issued for centre fire handguns will remain in place.

Gardai to establish centralised licensing system for restricted firearms
The Minister has welcomed the Garda Commissioner's intention to establish a
centralised licensing system for restricted firearms, pending the
establishment and determination of an independent body to determine what
firearms should be licensable.

Garda Inspectorate to review the administration of firearms licensing
The Minister intends asking the Garda Inspectorate to review the
administration of firearms licensing by An Garda Síochána, following the
establishment and operation of the Firearms Assessment and Appeals
Authority.

The Minister has noted the Joint Oireachtas Committee recommendation that
the Garda Inspectorate carry out an independent review of the current
firearms licensing regime. Given the changes now proposed, it is deemed
more appropriate to review the administration of firearms licensing by An
Garda Síochána when the new arrangements are well in place i.e. 12 months
after the establishment and operation of the Authority.

Re-establishment of Firearms Consultative Panel
The Minister intends to re-establish the Firearms Consultative Panel to
examine general issues of common concern which could include issues such as
the establishment of a ballistic record of certain firearms, updated
storage conditions for firearms and the reloading of ammunition.

There will be no changes to the licensing of shotguns and rifles which make
up 99% of licensed firearms in Ireland.

Minister Fitzgerald stated: “These proposals are aimed at balancing public
safety and the interests of licensed firearms holders. The new Authority
will be best placed to make an objective and independent assessment as to
whether we continue to allow certain firearms to be licensed and result in
a more transparent licensing system. In the meantime all persons who
currently hold licences for 0.22 inch rim fire calibre handguns can apply
to have those licences renewed.”

Individual firearms licensing decisions have been and continue to be
subject to judicial review. The findings of the Courts in relation to the
law on firearms clearly can have implications for the implementation of
proposals in this area.Minister Fitzgerald announces changes to Firearms Licensing

Ends

Witcher · 18-09-2015 5:31pm

Good to see the graduated licencing crap that was put forward was canned.

Sparks · 18-09-2015 5:35pm

There's a really good open door right there for us now if we would just walk through it to doing things in a sensible manner with the DoJ & AGS instead of butting heads and pounding tables constantly. We might even be able to save/bring back S/A CF rifles and pistols, though not in the short-term.

dc99 · 18-09-2015 6:31pm

Its looks like it is a reasonable and balanced approace to 'sort' things out regarding the .22 hand guns - to me.

However, you all seem to be focusing on the 5 mag part and modified to take only -re-read the first bit, it says DESIGNED for use with .22lr ammo...(Paraphrasing a bit :-) )

I think this still means that the "olympic type" argument is not gonna be used, but the 'that was designed for 9mm combat or police work, all you've done is changed the barrell to .22lr.....' may still apply. even though the guts may be completely different.

Like the M&P 22 - would love one - and according to the bumf from the manufacture - its designed for those wanting to shoot cheaply (.22lr) or my real favorite the walther PPK that is now out in .22lr. - would love that but can I get a licence for it?

Sparks · 18-09-2015 6:39pm

Wouldn't hold up dc99, not in the case of things like the PPK in .22lr because the "designed for" applies to the kind of ammunition it is designed to take, not the use the pistol might be intended for in the mind of some random Garda Superintendent.

You might have an issue with something like a 9mm pistol with a conversion kit; except that you'd never have licenced that in the first place if it wasn't a complete replacement for internal parts (if it was just a sleeve-type kit).

It's not perfect; it could have been increased to 6, it could have been written to include revolvers more carefully, and so on; but given what we were all told to expect by the sky-is-falling mob, this is one of the best outcomes we could have hoped for for .22lr pistols. I mean, they've dropped the barrel length requirement, dropped the "designed for Olympics" stuff, and made it explicit that modifying mags is fine.

dc99 · 18-09-2015 6:47pm

So, you think (on first review) I could go and apply for - with some level of expectencey, a PPK in .22lr?

Of course my other problem is that I already have a licence for Hammerli...

Sparks · 18-09-2015 6:55pm

dc99 wrote: »

So, you think (on first review) I could go and apply for - with some level of expectencey, a PPK in .22lr?

Of course my other problem is that I already have a licence for Hammerli...

Levels of expectancy are a dangerous concept

But legally, there is no longer any difference in standing between an application for a PPK in .22lr and a Ruger MkII in .22lr. They both satisfy the SI equally, and that's now been made explicit.

gunhappy_ie · 18-09-2015 7:16pm

dc99 wrote: »

So, you think (on first review) I could go and apply for - with some level of expectencey, a PPK in .22lr?

Of course my other problem is that I already have a licence for Hammerli...

I only had a Walther PP (the .22 version) in my hands last week

Grizzly 45 · 18-09-2015 7:44pm

Should be a few of them knocking about on the intl market as they were issued up in the North a PDW to the "Green Finches".Only .22lr pistol to have a STANAG number because of it becoming then an issue firearm to the UK armed forces.

Speaking of which...this legislation would of course come out now in this form and I finally tracked down in Germany a Ruger mini14 GB that was a former RUC rifle..For handy enough money too....:mad: FECKIN typical!!!:mad::(

LATER
Y'know it is remarkeably silent on one thing I thought the would have pushed thru no matter what...GUNSAFES for all firearms,including our agricultural brethern or despite them needing inst access to them at any iven moment of the day or night.

juice1304 · 18-09-2015 7:56pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

d I finally tracked down in Germany a Ruger mini14 GB that was a former RUC rifle..For handy enough money too....:mad: FECKIN typical!!!:mad::(

Where abouts was that? :pac:

Sparks · 18-09-2015 8:05pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Y'know it is remarkeably silent on one thing I thought the would have pushed thru no matter what...GUNSAFES for all firearms,including our agricultural brethern or despite them needing inst access to them at any iven moment of the day or night.

As quiet as the original proposals really.
If, however, those proposals and the gunsafes weren't on the first page of the FCP's new agenda, I'd be surprised.

But then, the FCP was always the right place for stuff like that.

gunhappy_ie · 18-09-2015 8:47pm

Sparks wrote: »

As quiet as the original proposals really.
If, however, those proposals and the gunsafes weren't on the first page of the FCP's new agenda, I'd be surprised.

But then, the FCP was always the right place for stuff like that.

Lunacy that they dont have but proof to me on 1 of 2 things:

(i) that AGS werent really as serious about public safety as they made out

(ii) it was their intention to divide shooting factions and over time made owning a firearm more and more restrictive until few licences existed

Nekarsulm · 18-09-2015 10:09pm

Ah lads, you don't expect Minister for Cows&Guns Coveney to have the biggest glad-handing exercise in his whole year spoiled by an announcement about compulsory gun safes, do you?
Wait till after the Ploughing is over, and he gets to highlight some new EEC scheme, then he might let it be announced when the first trance of SFP money comes out.

It's not as if a farmer with a shotgun and a rifle is exempt from having a safe. Any farmer i know with more than one gun has a safe installed. The Gardai round here insist on it.

garrettod · 19-09-2015 2:13am

The farming community are far too well organised, to risk upsetting in the run up to an election...

Zxthinger · 19-09-2015 10:52am

So this new SI now makes revolvers restricted thereby banning one of the of most benign forms of pistol shooting after air powered units.
How easy would it have been to add a clause to the new SI stating that for the purposes of the subsection a magazine will also mean a cylinder.

Simple stuff really. If anything this exclusion serves to demonstrate any technical input to the process.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

New SI released, changes to licencing upcoming.

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