Laurent Benezech - "Doping in Rugby as bad as cycling" [MOD WARNING POST #1]

rrpc · 10-09-2015 01:03PM

brocbrocach wrote: »

I hope he does. The game is going nuts and something has to give. Where better to start than with an odious man like Boudjellal and his moneyball team.

I don't think he's odious. Eccentric maybe, Outrageous often, Controversial regularly but he's clearly a fan who had the money to indulge his love of rugby and is rightfully proud of his team.

Lots of people hate Toulon because of him and his money but the club itself has a proud history and very loyal fans from the area.

If there's suspicion of doping, I doubt that it's just one club. There just isn't enough of a deterrent in the current testing regime because when you look at the drug cheats that are caught, a majority of them are not caught through testing but through third party info, 'bad luck' or co-operation from other agencies like the post office, police or revenue.

Speaking to medical professionals about the situation, I have been laughed at when espousing belief in the testing system. The general consensus being that a tester might catch someone through sheer dumb luck, but that anyone with medical assistance will generally be able to waltz through testing without an issue unless they're caught on the wrong day at the wrong time.

Lance Armstrong was eventually caught through the re-testing of older samples using new techniques. Even then, testimony from people close to him was needed to finally put him out of the sport.

CatFromHue · 13-09-2015 05:36PM

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-hard-to-spot-doping-when-your-head-is-in-the-sand-31522431.html

Good article from Franno on drugs

Zzippy · 13-09-2015 06:23PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-hard-to-spot-doping-when-your-head-is-in-the-sand-31522431.html

Good article from Franno on drugs

It's a mishmash of different doping violations, none of which add up to what the subheading says about body shapes don't lie. Franno can't accept that players can look like they do nowadays because he didn't do the same training when he was playing - that subheading basically infers that they're all at it, but nothing in the article backs up his point. A rambling incoherent piece of sh1t journalism, which is what we've come to expect from Francis. I though the Toulon case only involved painkillers but he mentions anabolic steroids

The title does have some relevance in that I don't think there are half enough tests, especially out of competition tests, and positive tests aren't treated seriously enough. In other sports you don't get away with positive tests by saying it was inadvertent or morphine was naturally formed in the body from codeine. If the article went into the number of tests, or made comparisons with other sports, it might have backed up the title too. As ever with Francis, he has the seed of a good point but butchers it with a terrible article. Good article and NF don't go in the same sentence!

hans aus dtschl · 14-09-2015 11:51AM

Toulon case: Anabolics, Painkillers.
Links:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/08/toulon-investigation-doping-allegations-rugby
http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/paul-oconnells-new-club-implicated-in-doping-scandal/38878
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/paul-oconnells-new-club-toulon-hit-with-doping-allegations-694815.html

"Body Shapes Don't Lie" was a line Francis used in the article, so they presumably lifted it for the sub heading. But I agree, it doesn't tie in with the rest of the article too well. The little blurb bits don't go with the piece in general, they're just extra points really.

I'm not a cheerleader for Francis, but I thought it was a pretty good piece overall, in a relative vacuum amongst rugby journalism.

brocbrocach · 14-09-2015 12:15PM

Yeah I don't like Franno at all but to be fair to him he does consistently return to this subject. He'll never be one for hunting down a story like a Kimmage etc but he's put himself in a hard and lonely spot sometimes by pointing out the elephant in the room. Maybe it's for love of the sport or maybe it's to be sensationalist and relevant but it serves a purpose.
In general the Irish and international rugby press are cowards and are playing their part by enabling this culture. It's comical to see the pantomime gasps of outrage about this or that while at the same time they can keep a straight face about the likes of Spala and ice-baths!
It'll take a player collapsing and dying on the field to shake a few of the insiders out of this bubble.

CatFromHue · 14-09-2015 12:19PM

I found the stuff about Drostanolone interesting anyway, I know I wouldn't have a clue in how to perform an injection and wouldn't do it on the advice of a mate or the internet.

total former · 14-09-2015 12:25PM

Franno hasn't a clue. Not a clue. That has never stopped him before so I don't know why I expected it to change now, but that piece is just dripping with ignorance.

Yes, lots of rugby players dope, but Neil Francis is not the man to expose any of it, because as I mentioned above, he just doesn't know what he's talking about.

"I can't imagine a better PED than morphine"; I got a laugh out of that one.

14-09-2015 12:37PM

total former wrote: »

"I can't imagine a better PED than morphine"; I got a laugh out of that one.

Which of these two groups would be a prototype for a rugby beast?

250?cb=20111115213055

Bane, a big fan of Venom, which is a 'super steroid'

Or the lads in the opium dens? (morphine)

CatFromHue · 14-09-2015 12:43PM

total former wrote: »

"I can't imagine a better PED than morphine"; I got a laugh out of that one.

Well it is on the WADA prohibited list anyway

14-09-2015 12:44PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Well it is on the WADA prohibited list anyway

Yup, no doubt, but it's not exactly a Performance Enhancing Drug is it?

And there are certainly far, far, far more useful PEDs than Morphine available.

Zzippy · 14-09-2015 12:49PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

I found the stuff about Drostanolone interesting anyway, I know I wouldn't have a clue in how to perform an injection and wouldn't do it on the advice of a mate or the internet.

For all he knows, or we know, the drug comes in pre-packaged syringes with pre-measured doses and a schedule for injecting - he assumes in the article that it basically comes in a big bottle and you have to get your own syringes etc - or have a doctor do it for you - no accounting for other scenarios. From what I hear, bodybuilders in gyms all over the world are getting their hands on the stuff and self-administering, and it's common knowledge how to dose, micro-dose, etc. Cyclists were doing it for years with EPO, even using centrifuges to check their own blood hematocrit to make sure they were dosing properly. Why would a rugby player with that intention be any different, unless he's assuming they're all stupid?

CatFromHue · 14-09-2015 01:21PM

Armitage played 23 +6 games last season for Toulon so in the context of painkillers helping you get through the week or overcoming all those annoying knocks and bumps that don't fully injure you but make you're life that bit harder then Morphine might be seen as a handy PED.

On the drostanolone do the body builders or cyclists who take it go out on their own and figure it out from themselves/the box, or do they get shown by someone how to use it? If someone showed him how to take it then there's other in the club using it.

brocbrocach · 14-09-2015 02:41PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Armitage played 23 +6 games last season for Toulon so in the context of painkillers helping you get through the week or overcoming all those annoying knocks and bumps that don't fully injure you but make you're life that bit harder then Morphine might be seen as a handy PED.

On the drostanolone do the body builders or cyclists who take it go out on their own and figure it out from themselves/the box, or do they get shown by someone how to use it? If someone showed him how to take it then there's other in the club using it.

Don't know about the morphine's effectiveness but I'd presume it's a minor part of any programme. I'd think power/explosiveness and endurance would be the big targets for the athletes and recovery would be behind them or a byproduct of them.
I presume where Franno is going with all that stuff about how do they learn etc is that he's trying to subtly imply that clubs are running the programmes for the players. Not too subtle I know but he's a bad journalist and a former 2nd row.

hans aus dtschl · 14-09-2015 02:48PM

From the cycling perspective, few cyclists at the top level "just figured it out themselves" so to speak. Most pro level cycling teams have detailed medical plans, from the team doctor or the director sportif.
That's basically what the whole cycling/doping scandal is/was about tbh. Bad example to choose.

As for morphine not being performance enhancing, then why take it? To degrade performance? To try and fail a test? Are you saying the test itself was flawed? It either helps you or it doesn't. If it's on the banned list you must get a TUE, just like every other sport in the world, other wise you're doping.

It sort of sounds like "you don't understand the nuances of rugby" as a counter-argument to Francis' article.
Tbh, for me his article still stands up after reading the above posts: I'm all ears if people have more counterpoints.

rrpc · 14-09-2015 02:53PM

brocbrocach wrote: »

I presume where Franno is going with all that stuff about how do they learn etc is that he's trying to subtly imply that clubs are running the programmes for the players. Not too subtle I know but he's a bad journalist and a former 2nd row.

That's not such a huge leap (even for a 2nd row). Most of the major doping scandals have involved coaching staff and/or medical staff. Last year a Welsh coach was banned for eight years for supply.

It may be relatively easy to self administer drugs but that's only the tip of the doping iceberg. There's timing, dosage, masking, side effect management and system flushing plus all the performance monitoring that goes with being a drug cheat.

What worries me is how many low level players get caught and how few top level players. Maybe they all clean up and maybe pigs fly.

brocbrocach · 14-09-2015 04:11PM

rrpc wrote: »

What worries me is how many low level players get caught and how few top level players. Maybe they all clean up and maybe pigs fly.

Yeah, hit the nail on the head there. It always seems to be guys striving to be at the level below the top. Even players on development contracts are rare and if those lads aren't tempted to dope then nobody is.
We've seen from non-doping cases that players, staff and boardrooms are all no more ethical than any other sport so the numbers we're seeing don't make any sense.
In one way it's a pity as the game is on such a high but on the other hand everything is progressing at such a freakish pace that it can't be rowed back from within. It's just waiting for someone to Lance the boil at this stage.

durkadurka · 14-09-2015 04:34PM

brocbrocach wrote: »

Yeah, hit the nail on the head there. It always seems to be guys striving to be at the level below the top. Even players on development contracts are rare and if those lads aren't tempted to dope then nobody is.
We've seen from non-doping cases that players, staff and boardrooms are all no more ethical than any other sport so the numbers we're seeing don't make any sense.
In one way it's a pity as the game is on such a high but on the other hand everything is progressing at such a freakish pace that it can't be rowed back from within. It's just waiting for someone to Lance the boil at this stage.

Boom

Laurent Benezech - "Doping in Rugby as bad as cycling" [MOD WARNING POST #1]

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