Laurent Benezech - "Doping in Rugby as bad as cycling" [MOD WARNING POST #1]

specttator

Wow, I bet this post caused a spike on Google search.

the baby bull elephant

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/joe-schmidt-i-dont-see-any-abuse-of-supplements-in-my-work-30820687.html

Well if Joe says it...

SaveOurLyric

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/joe-schmidt-i-dont-see-any-abuse-of-supplements-in-my-work-30820687.html

Well if Joe says it...

Well.......he says he does see any abuse of supplements. Which could be just going heavy on the creatine or vitamin pills.
Doesnt say he doesnt see any use of banned drugs.

.ak

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Well.......he says he does see any abuse of supplements. Which could be just going heavy on the creatine or vitamin pills.
Doesnt say he doesnt see any use of banned drugs.

No but he does mention the random drug tests and their frequency.

Zzippy

.ak wrote: »

No but he does mention the random drug tests and their frequency.

But how does that (and Heaslip's quote) square with the number of drug tests on Irish rugby players as posted earlier in the thread? Think it was 19 tests on senior squad players. If true that's laughably low and a parody of a drug testing regime. I'm sure there's additional testing done by the IRB after matches, but 19 tests on what, 30 senior players... hard to reconcile the figures with the quotes from players/coaches.

.ak

Zzippy wrote: »

But how does that (and Heaslip's quote) square with the number of drug tests on Irish rugby players as posted earlier in the thread? Think it was 19 tests on senior squad players. If true that's laughably low and a parody of a drug testing regime. I'm sure there's additional testing done by the IRB after matches, but 19 tests on what, 30 senior players... hard to reconcile the figures with the quotes from players/coaches.

Is that low? I'd think that's quite high. If over 50% of the squad is randomly tested surely it means the guys are mostly on a level playing field.

TBH I really doubt there's drugs rife at the top level. I just can't see them getting through the tests, if everyone is at it.

I could be very open to the fact it's used at J1 or AIL division level, with the fact it's not as stringently tested.

Zzippy

.ak wrote: »

Is that low? I'd think that's quite high. If over 50% of the squad is randomly tested surely it means the guys are mostly on a level playing field.

TBH I really doubt there's drugs rife at the top level. I just can't see them getting through the tests, if everyone is at it.

I could be very open to the fact it's used at J1 or AIL division level, with the fact it's not as stringently tested.

Less than 1 test a year per player? The chances of getting caught if you do take PEDs are ridiculously low in that case. AFAIK most drugs have a short cycle time and are undetectable within a few days or weeks of being taken. If you know you're only going to be tested once a year, the risk-reward is much different than if you're being tested regularly. A proper testing regime is a deterrent if nothing else.

Macy0161

When I've heard Benezech on this, he's been very careful not to make it just (or even) about doping, but about supplements too. I think even Kimmage is missing this point too in his rush to wade in.

Clearlier

.ak wrote: »

Is that low? I'd think that's quite high. If over 50% of the squad is randomly tested surely it means the guys are mostly on a level playing field.

TBH I really doubt there's drugs rife at the top level. I just can't see them getting through the tests, if everyone is at it.

I could be very open to the fact it's used at J1 or AIL division level, with the fact it's not as stringently tested.

Laughably low in terms of being able to catch anybody. 19 tests per person per year would be more like what's required for confidence. The issue is cost. To do that level of testing would cost enormous amounts of money. I don't know for sure but I don't think that there is biological passport type testing in rugby - not least because the volume of testing is insufficient for it. The "in-between" option is to use intelligence for targeted testing (this for example was how Cathal Lombard was caught).

FWIW I think that Ireland has a reasonably good record of catching dopers in athletics (it's only an opinion because there's no way of reliably identifying those who doped but weren't caught). The big concern that I've got in rugby is that the volume of tests conducted is very low. I find it hard to believe that there is any kind of an organised doping programme in Ireland however there could well be a few players who do and I haven't much confidence that these would be caught given the number of tests conducted.

the baby bull elephant

Are there any additional tests carried out by competition bodies or WR rather than the IRFU?

LuckyLloyd

klairondavis wrote: »

An unwinnable war? I'm not so sure about that. It is at the moment in most sports because the testing procedures are so poor. Implementing a biological passport would be a great starting point in helping to minimise PED use but it will never happen until there is more funding made available by the sporting bodies for the anti-doping agencies.

It costs $40k to test for HGH.

twinytwo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It costs $40k to test for HGH.

thats crazy tbh

Clearlier

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It costs $40k to test for HGH.

What gave you that notion? A quick google suggests an expensive test but a small fraction of the cost that you suggest.

LuckyLloyd

Clearlier wrote: »

What gave you that notion? A quick google suggests an expensive test but a small fraction of the cost that you suggest.

The test that did Pat Mendes (American Weightlifter busted for HGH in 2013) apparently cost that much. Maybe there was additional complexity to his test, I don't know?

Clearlier

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The test that did Pat Mendes (American Weightlifter busted for HGH in 2013) apparently cost that much. Maybe there was additional complexity to his test, I don't know?

Never heard of him and a quick google didn't reveal the cost of his specific testing (perhaps you have a link?). Testing is expensive, even very expensive but it's not $40k per test expensive not even close AFAIK.

Zzippy

A quick Google found this link which suggests a cost of $2,500 per HGH test in the US. Even that sounds high to me - that could be the team owners (who pay for testing in American football) putting out an inflated figure to show that it is too expensive to test widely.

LuckyLloyd

Clearlier wrote: »

Never heard of him and a quick google didn't reveal the cost of his specific testing (perhaps you have a link?). Testing is expensive, even very expensive but it's not $40k per test expensive not even close AFAIK.

I don't have a link to anything verified - rumour and innuendo on weightlifting forums (a sport as dirty as it comes where doping is concerned).

I withdraw the assertion.

That said, if HGH is ~$2,500 to test for then - allied to all of the other testing costs and the professional labour to draw blood / take samples / maintain samples - it isn't hard to see why the IRB and associated boards may be happy to maintain a light testing regime.

mxyzptlk

Larbre34 wrote: »

Maybe they target him because he has the injury profile of a Terminator T-2000.

As an aside, this always makes me wonder: Heaslip, Israel Folau and Sonny Bill Williams are all renowned for their general indestructibility. All three have referenced some crazy stretching routines they do multiple times a day to keep them recovering at a good rate -- like an hour in the morning, and hour before bed, and before and after training. It's extras they do above their mandated training.

All of these accounts were mentioned at different times in their respective local presses, so they weren't connected (and none of the accounts mentioned any other player). And they all attributed some of their Wolverine-like recovery powers to this stretching. I wonder if they're using similar stretching methods, what they are, and if they got them from sports scientists or had to promise a first-born child to someone. Because something there is working.

Clearlier

mxyzptlk wrote: »

As an aside, this always makes me wonder: Heaslip, Israel Folau and Sonny Bill Williams are all renowned for their general indestructibility. All three have referenced some crazy stretching routines they do multiple times a day to keep them recovering at a good rate -- like an hour in the morning, and hour before bed, and before and after training. It's extras they do above their mandated training.

All of these accounts were mentioned at different times in their respective local presses, so they weren't connected (and none of the accounts mentioned any other player). And they all attributed some of their Wolverine-like recovery powers to this stretching. I wonder if they're using similar stretching methods, what they are, and if they got them from sports scientists or had to promise a first-born child to someone. Because something there is working.

You'd need to get more specific about what kind of stretching however I doubt that it has that great an impact. Some people really are just less injury prone than others. It has little reference to strength or ability and occurs at all levels of the game. You can get injured if you haven't got the appropriate range of motion for the activities that you're undertaking but the broad push of sports science at the moment is towards the idea that static stretching is more likely to cause injury than prevent it. That said I've heard lots of good things about Active Isolated Stretching.

JonnyF

Jamie swears by this guy

http://www.mobilitywod.com/about/kellystarrett/

I wouldn't put his durability down to anything other than that. He clearly works very hard on this area and is also very vocal about his diet etc.

I think other cases of players getting random injuries, or frequently injured on joints points more to abuse - i can think of some players who gained a lot of size very quickly and have subsequently had several shoulder and knees issues as the weight gain happened too quickly for these joints to adapt to the increased strain.

Important video on pros and cons of Vitamin S

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD_44xEEDjU

CatFromHue

Paul Kimmage was on The Saturday Night show, it's on the player now and he's the last guest, last night talking about his recent articles.

Interesting enough listening to him. There is the point that in France the players have different physiques (plenty of International coaches have commented on the need to tailor a conditioning program for their French players as over there they conditioned to be big) which has come up alot and when Irish teams come up against French teams the first thing that is usually said is that they've got a monster pack.

He said he's going to continue to look into the game and write articles about it.

He also mentioned that some players take pain killers before a game which is madness to me.

Either way the game will stand or fall on what it's actually doing as opposed to what we perceive it to be doing.

Edit: The supplements thing though doesn't stand up to me though as supplements are used wildly now in modern life, Vitamin C, Cod Liver Oil, Berrocca, Glucosomine, Multi Vitamin, Iron, and so on.

Has Kimmage produced anything close to evidence of doping yet?

CatFromHue

Just about the RFU failed doping tests, which were mainly at below pro level,and I think one of the Argentinian advisor's for the 07 RWC was then found to have doped players in other sports.

I don't know if he mentioned the Wada findings, that per test performed Rugby faired worse than Cycling and Athletics though the tests performed in Rugby are only a quarter or so of those in the Cycling and Athletics, or some of the results of Craven Week in SA.

Nothing concrete as such as of yet.

ThisRegard

Josie Tiny Steak wrote: »

Has Kimmage produced anything close to evidence of doping yet?

Doesn't mean it's not happening at some level. But that's missing his point and latching directly onto the doping issue. His broader point is how legal medication could be having an adverse affect on players health, such as the point already raised about taking pain killers before a game.

.ak

I really don't see how taking pain killers relates to anything.

If I only played one game of rugby a year I wouldn't take pain killers before a match. But I don't, it's a contact sport, there's always something sore or stiff, you wouldn't not take pain killers in that situation.

Mountain out of a mole hill stuff.

ThisRegard

.ak wrote: »

Mountain out of a mole hill stuff.

That was just one example, and in fairness it's ignoring anything that Laurent Benezech exposed.

irishbucsfan

I've taken painkillers before games before. I remember I did it once because I had a dental problem (which caused agony while running oddly). I had been prescribed them and took them without thinking the morning of the game.

It actually does make a big difference. I think one of the best games I ever played was on them. I could actually easily see a case where a player developed a reliance on them, even as a comfort thing.

.ak

ThisRegard wrote: »

That was just one example, and in fairness it's ignoring anything that Laurent Benezech exposed.

I know, but just a lot of noise is being made of it, when there shouldn't be.

Also, regarding Benezech, I'm really not buying the noise he makes either. He's very much going down the road of 'These guys are big. They weren't in my day. Must be steroids.'

Reminds me of this on the button satire:

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/01/28/muscular-guy-at-gym-is-probably-on-steroids-says-fat-bastard/

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've taken painkillers before games before. I remember I did it once because I had a dental problem (which caused agony while running oddly). I had been prescribed them and took them without thinking the morning of the game.

It actually does make a big difference. I think one of the best games I ever played was on them. I could actually easily see a case where a player developed a reliance on them, even as a comfort thing.

I take them before nearly every game, but that's because as some of the other lads on here will be delighted to inform you I am Mr. Glass and always carrying a niggle! It helps me forget about injury, that's it. Doesn't improve anything.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

I take them before nearly every game, but that's because as some of the other lads on here will be delighted to inform you I am Mr. Glass and always carrying a niggle! It helps me forget about injury, that's it. Doesn't improve anything.

Psychological crutch. I imagine if you used sugar pills unknowingly you'd have a similar result.