Laurent Benezech - "Doping in Rugby as bad as cycling" [MOD WARNING POST #1]

Pisco Sour

http://www.sportlive.co.za/rugby/morerugby/2013/04/06/doping-in-rugby-as-bad-as-cycling-says-ex-hooker

Serious claims.


MOD WARNING:
No speculation on specific players doping/juicing/etc.

Cork Boy

The idea that doping or some other form of cheating doesn't exist in any professional sport is naive at best.

It's really a matter of what our testing standards are like and laws regarding AUTs.

irishbucsfan

Surprised this is the first thread on this.

Supposedly rugby was the worst sport in France last year for doping abuses (according to the head of their anti-doping guys I think). Not sure if that's the same article that mentions that.

Could be a real ****storm about to hit the sport. Some of them are saying the sport is exactly where cycling was Pre-Faustina. I really really hope it isn't.

Cork Boy

And if it is though I hope it gets exposed, best to bite the bullet and clear house otherwise it becomes a bad joke.

mikehammer67

exposed yes..hopefully

peds in pro sport are here to stay though

Madworld

**mod edit: please don't make accusations without any proof

justsomebloke

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Surprised this is the first thread on this

Every year we have a couple of posts on the topic but as I already had to do below after only 6 posts generally these topics don't last long due to amount of libelous comments that are made without any back up

Madworld wrote: »

**mod edit: please don't make accusations without any proof

Buer

No surprise. Jean Pierre Ellisalde was interviewed recently and said that, when he was playing, drug taking was common practice by players and known within the game. He stated it was particularly prevalent among southern hemisphere players but it was often seen in France too.

It's a very much unspoken matter in rugby given the game has strong ties to an amateur ethos. If there was a large scale investigation, I think there would be some serious revelations. There are tell tale signs of drug taking among a number of professional players.

Sinbad_NI

Getting some info from the goings on around the cycling stuff its really concerning the lack of blood testing in all team sports.

.ak

Isn't there a lot of strict anti-doping regimes in the pro sport though? Lots of random drug testing etc., etc. Remember that Japanese player a while ago got banned for using a banned substance that was in this cream he was using to help grow a 'tache!

Mid-level I can understand players getting away with it, but at high club pro-level/international level I'd be very surprised if players were getting away with it.

Teferi

Yeah, saw this the other day. If his claims have any merit I'd love large scale testing done myself. As Cork Boy said, better to bite the bullet and get it over with.

justsomebloke

Cheating happens in every sport from Rugby and Football to chess and Tiddlywinks.

Human nature make people strive to be the best. However when genetics and luck don't make you the best it can leave people looking for 'alternatives' to make up the short comings.

So is drugs rampant in the sport? Truthfully, it's to hard to tell but I wouldn't be surprised. The one thing that would make me inclined to believe it is true is the lack of any major scandals.

As I said people cheat in every sport, so some people ARE using drugs but we don't see to be finding them.

The problem is when cheats aren't being found it forces everyone else to try and 'up' their game and sure if the other bloke isn't being caught they make use the same shortcuts to help them.

Now there will be a minority that says there is nothing wrong with taking steroids, and that all you are doing is enhancing the human body to help try and push it beyond it's natural boundaries and as someone flirted with powerlifting I myself am not fully against steroid, if that is what you do, ONCE you are doing it with within a sport that allows it. So in Powerlifting there is the drug free federations with strict anti-doping tests and then there are the ones that have no testing.

Rugby is a tested sport and now an Olympic sport so it should be a drug free sport, so I have absolutely no time what so ever for drug cheats in it. They are doing a massive disservice to the sport and they are helping make the sport a more dangerous place to be and shorting the career of players, while leaving players open to having more long term physical issues after they leave the sport.

So I really hope the sport starts to take it seriously of it's own accord because if it doesn't and a drug culture only comes to light via a scandal it could wreck the game

Teferi

justsomebloke wrote: »

Cheating happens in every sport from Rugby and Football to chess and Tiddlywinks.

Jaysus sure, the backrow in rugby actually have a mandate to cheat as much as they can get away with!

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Isn't there a lot of strict anti-doping regimes in the pro sport though? Lots of random drug testing etc., etc. Remember that Japanese player a while ago got banned for using a banned substance that was in this cream he was using to help grow a 'tache!

Mid-level I can understand players getting away with it, but at high club pro-level/international level I'd be very surprised if players were getting away with it.

There is testing and regimes. I wouldn't say they're all particularly strict. Of all people, Joey Barton spoke some sense on the issue. He revealed than in over a decade of being a professional footballer (the sport with more money and power in it than any in the world) he had never, once, in his entire career, been blood tested. He had been urine tested but that only reveals certain elements.

Why would a massive sporting body want to introduce in depth tests to their sport? They run the risk of the sport being shown up to be a sham and driving away their patrons. Cycling is a cautionary tale for the likes of FIFA and the IRB. The level of respect and interest in road cycling has fallen off a cliff.

Buer

Slightly off topic but here's a fascinating interview from Spiegel in Germany with Angel Heredia on drug taking in athletics. It's a complete eye opener. You'll need to use Chrome or Google Translate to read it in full.

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/a-571031.html

It's hard to believe that any sprinter in an Olympic final is clean after reading it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Buer wrote: »

Slightly off topic but here's a fascinating interview from Spiegel in Germany with Angel Heredia on drug taking in athletics. It's a complete eye opener. You'll need to use Chrome or Google Translate to read it in full.

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/a-571031.html

It's hard to believe that any sprinter in an Olympic final is clean after reading it.

Or you know speak german:P

Buer

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Or you know speak german:P

That's so crazy it might just work!

Macy0161

Any testing that doesn't include blood testing and long term profiling is flawed.

justsomebloke

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Or you know speak german:P

that sounds like the crazy rambling of someone who could do with a blood test :pac:

Buer

Macy0161 wrote: »

Just at a relatively low seriousness level, I'm always amazed how many athletes across all sports are apparently asthmatic.

Fighting the urge not to say what half the board are thinking and has the mods hovering over the warning button....

Cork Boy

Buer wrote: »

Fighting the urge not to say what half the board are thinking and has the mods hovering over the warning button....

Swiwi

The guy should either give proof, or shut up. I can't stand it when people make these insinuations without providing evidence. I'm not saying doping doesn't happen in rugby (I'm sure it does), but this guy has added nothing to the argument so far.

justsomebloke

Swiwi wrote: »

The guy should either give proof, or shut up. I can't stand it when people make these insinuations without providing evidence. I'm not saying doping doesn't happen in rugby (I'm sure it does), but this guy has added nothing to the argument so far.

But you yourself have highlighted the issue, you said you are sure doping happens in the sport but yet we have had hardly anyone positive test come out over the decades and those that do actually test positive are generally for 'recreational' drugs as oppose to performance enhancing drugs.

so given the sheer amount of numbers in the sport V the minimal amount of banned users it seems that the testing just isn't working. When when the testing isn't working it just leads to more people doing it, as it forces more people to do it to try and keep up with the ones getting away with it

Swiwi

justsomebloke wrote: »

But you yourself have highlighted the issue, you said you are sure doping happens in the sport but yet we have had hardly anyone positive test come out over the decades and those that do actually test positive are generally for 'recreational' drugs as oppose to performance enhancing drugs.

so given the sheer amount of numbers in the sport V the minimal amount of banned users it seems that the testing just isn't working. When when the testing isn't working it just leads to more people doing it, as it forces more people to do it to try and keep up with the ones getting away with it

Yeah, but I haven't gone to a newspaper with my unsubstantiated claims. There has been a fair number of proven recreational cases (eg Tuqiri, Stevens), and the closest I can think to performance enhancing was Cobus Visagie with nandralone IIRC.

Maybe I should take a more sanguine view, and say the testing is working, and the negative results are good news for rugby. Unlike some countries (I'm thinking former Soviet bloc here), proven doping by an AB would lead to public humiliation and ostracisation, and I'd be very surprised if top rugby players in NZ doped. I'm pretty sure there is rigorous testing in NZ. On the other hand, if I read that so-and-so Georgian player had been caught doping, sadly I wouldn't be surprised.

justsomebloke

Swiwi wrote: »

Yeah, but I haven't gone to a newspaper with my unsubstantiated claims.

Are they really unsubstantiated though when the story is comes about from a former player who is admitting to drug taking and saying the club was implicit in it and giving reference to another former player who said drugs were rampant in the sport.

Yes the claims are all from 90 and to previous decades but I would be massively surprised if the sport managed to clean itself up with any public tests.

Swiwi

justsomebloke wrote: »

Are they really unsubstantiated though when the story is comes about from a former player who is admitting to drug taking and saying the club was implicit in it and giving reference to another former player who said drugs were rampant in the sport.

Yes the claims are all from 90 and to previous decades but I would be massively surprised if the sport managed to clean itself up with any public tests.

I see your point. If he admits to drug use, that's fine. But in regards other players - not guilty in my book until positive blood test, or other irrefutable evidence. It was like the big furore in Aussie recently about their apparent systematic doping...with no specifics mentioned in the report as far as I'm aware. I take notice, but it's still a bit of a yawn until there's proof.

Buer

Swiwi wrote: »

It was like the big furore in Aussie recently about their apparent systematic doping...with no specifics mentioned in the report as far as I'm aware.

The AFL spent big money burying investigations by journalists under court orders and injunctions. The evidence is there. The authorities and governing bodies do not want it out there damaging these sports.

LuckyLloyd

A number of NFL players get bans each season under the terms of the NFL Substance abuse policy. Bans are typically short enough in duration.

Now people can believe whatever they want to believe, but I would argue that it's naive to think that players are getting through 25+ high intensity games at the top level each season without additional recovery aids. Remember, this stuff doesn't do the training or take the hits for you. It's all about recovery and maintaining consistent intensity throughout seasons that grow ever more packed.

I'll just say that I don't personally care. Choosing to pursue a professional Rugby career is a fairly unhealthy life choice as it is, and I like the increased intensity of the modern game. It would be hypocritical to love what modern rugby is while roaring for better PED testing standards.

justsomebloke

Buer wrote: »

The AFL spent big money burying investigations by journalists under court orders and injunctions. The evidence is there. The authorities and governing bodies do not want it out there damaging these sports.

Do you have any source to back this up?

Swiwi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A number of NFL players get bans each season under the terms of the NFL Substance abuse policy. Bans are typically short enough in duration.

Now people can believe whatever they want to believe, but I would argue that it's naive to think that players are getting through 25+ high intensity games at the top level each season without additional recovery aids. Remember, this stuff doesn't do the training or take the hits for you. It's all about recovery and maintaining consistent intensity throughout seasons that grow ever more packed.

I'll just say that I don't personally care. Choosing to pursue a professional Rugby career is a fairly unhealthy life choice as it is, and I like the increased intensity of the modern game. It would be hypocritical to love what modern rugby is while roaring for better PED testing standards.

I do care. Those drugs have long-term side-effects, and I want the ABs to play other teams on a level playing field from that point of view. I don't want to read Carter's or McCaw's premature obituary because of cardiac side-effects of performance enhancing drugs they felt compelled to take because it was rife & widely accepted in Europe.

Buer

justsomebloke wrote: »

Do you have any source to back this up?

Jaqueline Magnay wrote in The Guardian about it and her experiences of it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/drugsinsport/9854734/Drug-problems-in-Australian-sports-should-come-as-no-surprise-to-those-who-chose-to-ignore-the-problem.html

It was also covered in depth on Off The Ball in recent times.

LuckyLloyd

Swiwi wrote: »

I do care. Those drugs have long-term side-effects, and I want the ABs to play other teams on a level playing field from that point of view. I don't want to read Carter's or McCaw's premature obituary because of cardiac side-effects of performance enhancing drugs they felt compelled to take because it was rife & widely accepted in Europe.

A long rugby career at the highest level in the modern game will have negative long term side effects, PEDs or no PEDs. It's genuinely an unhealthy thing - really the pursuit of most professional sporting careers will tend to be. Remember that the professional game is only around 18 years now, and we've had maybe 10 - 13 years of the game at this intensity. I'd be highly surprised if we don't find out in a decade or so that guys like O' Driscoll are losing years off their life expectancy. Might take a lot longer even.

The NFL only started realising this in the recent past.

Swiwi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A long rugby career at the highest level in the modern game will have negative long term side effects, PEDs or no PEDs. It's genuinely an unhealthy thing - really the pursuit of most professional sporting careers will tend to be. Remember that the professional game is only around 18 years now, and we've had maybe 10 - 13 years of the game at this intensity. I'd be highly surprised if we don't find out in a decade or so that guys like O' Driscoll are losing years off their life expectancy. Might take a lot longer even.

The NFL only started realising this in the recent past.

Years off their joints, I'm not sure about years off their life expectancy. I guess it would make an interesting longitudinal study. I know post-career suicide apparently takes it's toll with American sports.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Isn't there a lot of strict anti-doping regimes in the pro sport though? Lots of random drug testing etc., etc. Remember that Japanese player a while ago got banned for using a banned substance that was in this cream he was using to help grow a 'tache!

Mid-level I can understand players getting away with it, but at high club pro-level/international level I'd be very surprised if players were getting away with it.

The short answer to your first question is "yes".

The long answer is that those 'strict anti-doping regimes' are comparable to the ones that failed to catch Lance Armstrong despite him completing hundreds of tests in and out of competition.

Anyone who thinks there is no doping in rugby, football and whatever sport you're having yourself should read up on exactly how the process worked in cycling, and ask themselves why in any other professional sport the temptation wouldn't be the same and the techniques also available to them.

There's a lot of circumstantial evidence of EPO in soccer and tennis and I am sure similar stuff is being used in rugby.

Sinbad_NI

Swiwi wrote: »

I see your point. If he admits to drug use, that's fine. But in regards other players - not guilty in my book until positive blood test, or other irrefutable evidence. It was like the big furore in Aussie recently about their apparent systematic doping...with no specifics mentioned in the report as far as I'm aware. I take notice, but it's still a bit of a yawn until there's proof.

Recent interview with a top WADA guy did there are no blood tests in team sports. Urine test is useless in catching stuff in comparison.
Reason for this was the cost involved but he seemed a more than a little annoyed at that state of affairs.

Draw you own conclusions, however the lack of positive tests shouldn't be a proof of clean, as Lance case has clearly shown. He just knew the rules and tests and like his peers worked within them.

Fits Morris

There were only 16 blood tests in Irish rugby last year. They'd be as well off not bothering testing at all if that's all they did.

LuckyLloyd

Swiwi wrote: »

Years off their joints, I'm not sure about years off their life expectancy. I guess it would make an interesting longitudinal study. I know post-career suicide apparently takes it's toll with American sports.

Which research is linking to too many hits in the head.

Halloween Jack

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Recent interview with a top WADA guy did there are no blood tests in team sports. Urine test is useless in catching stuff in comparison.
Reason for this was the cost involved but he seemed a more than a little annoyed at that state of affairs.

Draw you own conclusions, however the lack of positive tests shouldn't be a proof of clean, as Lance case has clearly shown. He just knew the rules and tests and like his peers worked within them.

Ben Johnson's coach wrote about doping in the 1980's. He said the 90's would usher in entirely beatable testing regimes, which allowed the governing bodies to say they were tough on drugs. While it would risk the occasional major scandal it would tacitly satisfy record driven fans. He claimed it would usher in an era where the elite who had cash and access to the best programs would exist on an altogether different plane from the rest, while having essentially carte blanch to dope away.

Liveforrugby

interesting and long article about HGH in the nfl etc

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1537041-hgh-in-the-nfl-what-it-is-why-the-nfl-isnt-testing-and-why-it-soon-will-be

iroced

The issue about doping is very complex I'd say.

First how do we / they (i.e.the competent authorities) define which products are allowed and which are banned ? Also what does the authorised limit on some "body rates" really mean (e.g. the 50% PCV) ? Why only focusing on the hematocrit? What about the hemoglobin for example ? Is it analysed the same way ? Is it just that the anti-doping authorities are not communicating about the latter?

Then we need an international consensus about it. Today, depending where you come from you can take some substances which are disallowed in other countries.


To me the only viable solution is the athlete biological passport started from a young age, e.g. entry date at the academy ? first professional contract signed ? I don't know but certainly early enough to have a detailed view of the athlete's "biological" evolution vs his performance evolution.
Cycling have started this system since 2008 with the "blood module". They reinforced it in 2011 with the "steroid module" and the "endocrine module". I guess it's still too early to see if efficient. But I think it's the only way. Though of course it all depends on the controlling method, What are they really searching for? Is it a complete blood test analysis carried over the athlete's career ? Or just a search for specific substances ?

Finally do the federations really wish to pay for implementing such a "restrictive" system? Since it can only work if done thoroughly which means "money needed"...

Oh and I was going to forget. And of course the fans... Are they prepared to watch slower games and/or performances? Because in the end doping is a global issue and it's probably everyone's mentality that needs to be changed.

LuckyLloyd

iroced wrote: »

And of course the fans... Are they prepared to watch slower games and/or performances?

I think I know the answer to that one.

Neoulous

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Supposedly rugby was the worst sport in France last year for doping abuses (according to the head of their anti-doping guys I think). Not sure if that's the same article that mentions that.

No not the same article. The big problem with the "bomb" thrown by the AFLD (French Anti-Doping Agency) is that they published a "raw" list of "abnormal results" (for example there were loads of "positive to cannabis" and it was not discussed whether it could be linked to careless personal use or will to reduce nerves before a competition. In addition the context and timing of these results was not mentioned at all, I mean being positive to cannabis during the "holidays" is not the same thing than before playing a final) and not "positive doping case" and of course everyone mixed up everything. Then they backed out trying to explain themselves but I guess it was already too late.

JRant

There's plenty of over the counter stuff available to boost anyone's workout, Jacked 3D and one more rep spring to mind (not sure if jacked isn't banned by now)
If it's a tailored PED regime then it's close on impossible to get caught out.
They're all taking something, just depends on it legality really.

.ak

Folks, speculation of specific players illegally juicing/doping is a BIG no no. Posts deleted.

desertcircus

I'm never sure what to think in cases like these. It seems naive to think there's no doping going on, but on the other hand it seems scarcely believable that it would be anywhere near as prevalent as in cycling. There simply isn't the same benefit in rugby; a cyclist riddled with EPO would absolutely destroy a clean field, but a juiced rugby player would have a marginal advantage in certain aspects of the game - rugby is immensely physical, but it's not simply a test of athletic ability. If it was, Pierre Spies would be far better than Richie McCaw. A clean cyclist in a juiced field would get absolutely nowhere, but a clean player in a juiced league could still do well if he's got a low centre of gravity, an accurate boot, or a mean step. And while difficult, it wouldn't be impossible to compete on a purely physical level with dopers, unlike cycling.

Dravokivich

I thought the appeal of doping/EPO was about recovery? Not strength gains.

Buer

EPO would improve stamina and allow the body supply more red blood cells and therefore muscles additional oxygen which in turn allow the muscles go for longer. It would be of great benefit to a rugby player in a lung bursting 80 minute match in the late stages when others are flagging.

Macy0161

desertcircus wrote: »

I'm never sure what to think in cases like these. It seems naive to think there's no doping going on, but on the other hand it seems scarcely believable that it would be anywhere near as prevalent as in cycling. There simply isn't the same benefit in rugby; a cyclist riddled with EPO would absolutely destroy a clean field, but a juiced rugby player would have a marginal advantage in certain aspects of the game - rugby is immensely physical, but it's not simply a test of athletic ability. If it was, Pierre Spies would be far better than Richie McCaw. A clean cyclist in a juiced field would get absolutely nowhere, but a clean player in a juiced league could still do well if he's got a low centre of gravity, an accurate boot, or a mean step. And while difficult, it wouldn't be impossible to compete on a purely physical level with dopers, unlike cycling.

It's all about marginal gains. How often do rugby games come down to the last few minutes? What's the benefits of faster recovery and faster return from injury over the course of a season? Just because the benefits may be less obvious, doesn't mean they're not there.

Whilst epo in cycling did/ does have the potential to turn a donkey into a racehorse, there's still very real benefits in field sports and other "games of skill". And there are doping products that enhance focus/ concentration.

Interestingly, if you went to a football forum, they would (and are) saying how they can see how it would benefit rugby players to dope due to the physicality and difference size can make, whereas there's too much skill in football for there to be the benefits.

I've no idea how prevalent it is, but without blood testing and profiling there is in effect no proper system. Even then, the general feeling is that tests are more an IQ test than a dope test, but everything that makes it harder is a good thing.

desertcircus

Not sure if I'm right, but I think I remember from reading David Millar's autobiography that EPO is catabolic in nature, so runs a high risk of reducing muscle mass. If that is the case, it would make EPO use in rugby a pretty bad idea, as you'd trade a marginal speed advantage in the last twenty minutes of four or five games a year for a significant problem with maintaining muscle mass. Steroid use would probably be more likely, as rugby isn't an endurance sport and the vast majority of EPO cases have come in endurance sports.

Sinbad_NI

What’s to say there's isn't another, as yet, undetectable drug out there that is more suited to Rugby.
PED's didn't start and won't end at EPO.

For me the farce surrounding cycling at the moment will dilute my enthusiasm for most sports for good while.
The old moto of “innocent until proved guilty” is now long gone from my head.

Slideshowbob

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/paul-kimmage-rugby-has-to-face-up-to-its-growing-pains-30766512.html

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/dangerous-obsession-with-size-creates-bigger-need-for-answers-30785080.html

..... and we are all still wondering why PK took a step back from BOD's book????