Laurent Benezech - "Doping in Rugby as bad as cycling" [MOD WARNING POST #1]

ThisRegard · 02-02-2015 12:55PM

.ak wrote: »

I take them before nearly every game, but that's because as some of the other lads on here will be delighted to inform you I am Mr. Glass and always carrying a niggle! It helps me forget about injury, that's it. Doesn't improve anything.

I find it interesting the differences in attitude to pain killers across the sporting world. For example in the A/R/T forum it's seen as a big no no to take them as they may mask more severe underlying problems, resulting in long term injury or damage.

I think this is what Kimmage is talking about.

.ak · 02-02-2015 12:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Psychological crutch. I imagine if you used sugar pills unknowingly you'd have a similar result.

How much are you willing to sell me these pills??

.ak · 02-02-2015 12:57PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

I find it interesting the differences in attitude to pain killers across the sporting world. For example in the A/R/T forum it's seen as a big no no to take them as they may mask more severe underlying problems, resulting in long term injury or damage.

I think this is what Kimmage is talking about.

Yeah that's fair enough, but I'm not sure an over the counter ibuprofen or paracetamol will have that much of an effect.

As emmet says, probably more in your head than anything else.

dregin · 02-02-2015 12:58PM

In Horgan's Irish Man Abroad interview he makes the good point that it's not about how much a guy is lifting now, it's about how much he's lifting now compared to how much he was lifting a year ago. You don't go from lifting 100KG to lifting 200KG in the space of a year without a bit of help... usually.

CatFromHue · 02-02-2015 01:04PM

His point about pain killers is that is that what you should be doing for sport?

Not that it's illegal but bad practice and I thought he made a good point about sometimes in life/sport it's the people who can absorb the pain that do well. Also if it helps you forget about injuries it is doing something and is part of what Benezech means when he talks about the medicalisation of the game.

It can be hard to differentiate between Irish rugby and World rugby when he's talking as most of the evidence, like the English drug testing failures and the WADA findings about rugby per test fairs off very badly, is from outside Ireland. I haven't read Benezech's book but I believe what caused a bit of fuss in France was that in it he says that a certain player who had to retire from a heart issue had been taking HGH.

The their big so they must be taking something doesn't mean anything to me either.

Macy0161 · 02-02-2015 01:05PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Edit: The supplements thing though doesn't stand up to me though as supplements are used wildly now in modern life, Vitamin C, Cod Liver Oil, Berrocca, Glucosomine, Multi Vitamin, Iron, and so on.

I don't know. He's hardly talking about taking a Multi Vitamin and a Whey Protein shake? Some of our star players are reps for these companies, advising all sorts of supplements (at crazy money). I'm not sure I'm comfortable if teenagers feel the need to take these rather than try and get it from natural sources/ diet changes tbh.

CatFromHue · 02-02-2015 01:14PM

Macy0161 wrote: »

I don't know. He's hardly talking about taking a Multi Vitamin and a Whey Protein shake? Some of our star players are reps for these companies, advising all sorts of supplements (at crazy money). I'm not sure I'm comfortable if teenagers feel the need to take these rather than try and get it from natural sources/ diet changes tbh.

My point was that supplements are part of everyone's, or an awful lot of people anyway, life nowadays whether they're sportsperson or not.

So saying sports people are taking supplements and supplements are bad isn't right.

The IRFU recommend that U18's don't take protein or creatine too
http://www.irishrugby.ie/playingthegame/fitness/nutrition/supplements_and_the_young_player.php

and they've a nutrition page on their website with good general information
http://www.irishrugby.ie/playingthegame/fitness/nutrition/nutrition.php

Thud · 02-02-2015 03:08PM

Rugby unlike cycling is a contact sport, bar the first week of preseason most player will be carrying some sort of injury so painkillers are much more likely to be used. The aerobic/lactic pain in cycling is a different sort of pain and I can see how using painkillers to mask that could be seen as gaining an advantage but using them for pain related to an impact injury is different.

He waffled around his point on that interview, he held back from saying they were taking anything illegal in rugby in this country but said they were overusing legal substances....which is kind of a non story.

02-02-2015 03:29PM

Thud wrote: »

Rugby unlike cycling is a contact sport, bar the first week of preseason most player will be carrying some sort of injury so painkillers are much more likely to be used. The aerobic/lactic pain in cycling is a different sort of pain and I can see how using painkillers to mask that could be seen as gaining an advantage but using them for pain related to an impact injury is different.

He waffled around his point on that interview, he held back from saying they were taking anything illegal in rugby in this country but said they were overusing legal substances....which is kind of a non story.

hmmm... even then it's a weak point. I had to take neurofen to get through a calf injury during a qualification window once and it doesn't make any difference to anything other than the specific injury (and mostly just for the warm up).

Pain related to output threshold during endurance sport is really more about managing how much you slow down. It's not an "ow this hurts" sort of pain it's more "my legs / core / chest are clearly telling me that I'm f**ked" sort of pain and you focus on the line and try not to lose splits.

CatFromHue · 02-02-2015 03:43PM

Thud wrote: »

He waffled around his point on that interview, he held back from saying they were taking anything illegal in rugby in this country but said they were overusing legal substances....which is kind of a non story.

Fitzpatrick explained what went wrong at Scotstoun.

“It was a very strange situation to be in sitting in the hospital in Glasgow especially after what I had gone through mentally up to that point.

“I was not sure after the violent concussion syndrome whether I would play again.

“I worked extremely hard mentally and physically to get myself in a position to play against Glasgow.

“I took far too much caffeine because of nerves going into the match. I was feeling tired but it was because my heart was racing too fast.

“These are the decisions you make and you have to live with them.

“It was one of those things and I have to move on, there were a lot of doubts in house how I’d come through but I had a really good training summer and I have managed to get myself on the field I just have to keep moving on week by week and that’s how I deal with it now.

“It was like caffeine chewing gum and or viper gel which is like sugar in caffeine

“I think it affected me more because I had stopped taking it because I was suffering migraines, going into the game I hadn’t any thought whether it would have any effect on me.

“I got thrown into the game and around the 28th minute I took a viper gel which gave me a bit of a boost.

I got to half time and I was feeling pretty lethargic because my heart was racing so fast, I wasn’t to know I took another on and before I went back out I put a gum in my sock incase I was feeling tired again, there are a great aid but because there was some many nerves flying about you do tend to be a bit lethargic so you need caffeine sometimes as it brightens you before a game, it wouldn’t be abuse of caffeine but I’d say that there is a pretty wide use through all sports.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/declan-fitzpatrick-reamins-in-a-positive-frame-of-mind-1-6389864

It's not illegal but it's not smart either.

Thud · 03-02-2015 12:07PM

that's just Fitzpatrick being a bit stupid he'll know not to take that much caffeine again.

You can generally get the same erect from coffee as caffeine pills it's just caffeine pills/gum are quicker and easier in pre-match situation nowadays. I'd imagine back in the day players drank coffee before games without anyone batting an eyelid

Robbo · 03-02-2015 12:16PM

Thud wrote: »

that's just Fitzpatrick being a bit stupid he'll know not to take that much caffeine again.

You can generally get the same erect from coffee as caffeine pills it's just caffeine pills/gum are quicker and easier in pre-match situation nowadays. I'd imagine back in the day players drank coffee before games without anyone batting an eyelid

I think you may have your pills confused there.

dub_skav · 03-02-2015 12:27PM

Robbo wrote: »

I think you may have your pills confused there.

He'll have no problems getting himself up for a match anyway

03-02-2015 12:32PM

dub_skav wrote: »

He'll have no problems getting himself up for a match anyway

Greater risk of being pinged for gouging though.

I kind of regret writing that.

death1234567 · 03-02-2015 02:30PM

Thud wrote: »

I'd imagine back in the day players drank coffee before games without anyone batting an eyelid

I think there's a lot more caffeine in the pills that athletes take than there is an a cup of coffee.

Thud · 03-02-2015 04:28PM

death1234567 wrote: »

I think there's a lot more caffeine in the pills that athletes take than there is an a cup of coffee.

most tablets are about 200mg
http://www.myprotein.com/sports-nutrition/caffeine-pro/10529801.html

same as an espresso
https://www.google.ie/search?q=how+much+caffeine+in+a+cup+of+coffee&gws_rd=cr&ei=dujQVOTZGIToUtWDgsAN#q=how+much+caffeine+in+a+cup+of+espresso

less that some starbucks drinks
http://www.caffeineinformer.com/the-complete-guide-to-starbucks-caffeine

caffeine gum is usually less around 50mg

Bridge93 · 04-02-2015 12:49PM

Article on the 42.ie today about a South African who has been done for steroids. 2 year ban

CatFromHue · 04-02-2015 01:07PM

Yeah, a 22 year old South African lock.

It was the same steroid that Chilliboy Ralepelle failed on

curious incident · 08-09-2015 11:54AM

Possible doping in Toulon.

They are suspected of illegally distributing players of the Toulon club substances that may be related to doping. According to our information, it would be antibiotics, analgesics, but also anabolic steroids.

Linky

rrpc · 08-09-2015 11:56AM

curious incident wrote: »

Possible doping in Toulon.

Linky

Check out the French Rugby thread. It's been dealt with there.

Not actually a Rugby story when you get into it.

brocbrocach · 08-09-2015 09:46PM

Phew nothing to see here!
That's lucky as rugby definitely doesn't have a drug problem.

RoundBox11 · 08-09-2015 09:59PM

brocbrocach wrote: »

Phew nothing to see here!
That's lucky as rugby definitely doesn't have a drug problem.

not sure if you're joking but it most definitely does! Maybe not as much as other sports but it is there

brocbrocach · 08-09-2015 10:21PM

RoundBox11 wrote: »

not sure if you're joking but it most definitely does! Maybe not as much as other sports but it is there

Ah yeah, i was being sarcastic to be honest.
All you have to do for an illustration is look at the number of doping violations UK Anti-Doping picked up last year - the majority are rugby, more than all other sports combined (league as well as Union of course).
And that's from a fairly poor testing regime.
And that's assuming that the governing bodies aren't quietly letting off the cheaters ... which is fairly likely i think given some of their previous actions.
And that's ignoring the ridiculous size, speed and recovery of the playesr nowadays.
And that's ignoring the crazy surges in "form" certain teams have. If your medical team can pile 10 kgs on a fella without losing his speed surely they can factor a planned "peak" into training...

irishbucsfan · 08-09-2015 10:31PM

How many rugby union cases were picked up last year in the UK?

rrpc · 08-09-2015 10:56PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How many rugby union cases were picked up last year in the UK?

I wasn't bored enough to read every UKAD quarterly report but the ones I did read averaged at least 2 bans per quarter. One guy got 8 years for supply. Another had multiple substances. The most common were steroids.

This from a rough average of 100 tests.

rrpc · 09-09-2015 04:08PM

Heard Benezech being interviewed at lunch time today and one of the things he said that had come out of this investigation was that the team doctor had been issuing blank prescriptions to players.

It was pointed out that the doctor had said they were so busy writing prescriptions that they had to do this from time to time.

Clearly there are issues there. The doctor concerned was being interviewed by police and this was where the admission was made.

Zzippy · 09-09-2015 05:30PM

Folks
A quick reminder that while it's OK to discuss doping in sport, including rugby, it is NOT OK to make any allegations about specific individuals, teams, players or staff without a link to back up those allegations . Unfounded speculation naming individuals or teams is NOT OK. Boards is liable for any legal action taken as a result of libellous allegations and therefore no unproven allegations will be allowed.

rrpc · 09-09-2015 07:55PM

So Mourad Boudjellal isn't taking this lying down:

http://twitter.com/RCTofficiel/status/641640346359889920?s=17

iroced · 10-09-2015 10:53AM

I hope for him (and for rugby in general) he's not gonna end the same way...

brocbrocach · 10-09-2015 10:57AM

iroced wrote: »

I hope for him (and for rugby in general) he's not gonna end the same way...

I hope he does. The game is going nuts and something has to give. Where better to start than with an odious man like Boudjellal and his moneyball team.

Laurent Benezech - "Doping in Rugby as bad as cycling" [MOD WARNING POST #1]

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