Attending a Church wedding

Stheno · 06-09-2015 7:35pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Yep she sounds exactly the same as 'Jonotti'. Two halfs of the same coin.

Ot but if you attend a wedding as a guest are you supposed to send a thank you letter?

06-09-2015 7:37pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Yep she sounds exactly the same as 'Jonotti'. Two halfs of the same coin.

Actually, she doesn't, if we're being strictly fair.

She was a nun, and her vows must therefore have been a matter of some considerable significance for her. But nonetheless she sat through our wedding, took part in it fully and enjoyed herself in the company of others. She also gave us a very nice gift. She never made any comment or criticism of us on the day, and in fact our understanding is that she never commented about the atheist and humanist nature of the event in a critical way to anyone. But she wrote to us, and said it was a pity we hadn't gotten married in a church as a one-line aside in a letter of thanks that was genuinely sincere. In that sense, it's fair to say that she stood by her beliefs and made her point, and was careful to make no kind of disruptive or public criticism of our different way of doing things.

In my view - and I suspect you'll agree - that's a whole lot more considerate, sensitive, intelligent and mature than "taking a stand".

06-09-2015 7:39pm

Stheno wrote: »

Ot but if you attend a wedding as a guest are you supposed to send a thank you letter?

We got about 3 or 4 when we got married back in the 90s. All of them were from older guests. The guest to whom I was referring was born in the 1910s.

Stheno · 06-09-2015 7:42pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We got about 3 or 4 when we got married back in the 90s. All of them were from older guests. The guest to whom I was referring was born in the 1910s.

Ah ok thanks

Lord Riverside · 06-09-2015 7:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, she doesn't, if we're being strictly fair.

She was a nun, and her vows must therefore have been a matter of some considerable significance for her. But nonetheless she sat through our wedding, took part in it fully and enjoyed herself in the company of others. She also gave us a very nice gift. She never made any comment or criticism of us on the day, and in fact our understanding is that she never commented about the atheist and humanist nature of the event in a critical way to anyone. But she wrote to us, and said it was a pity we hadn't gotten married in a church as a one-line aside in a letter of thanks that was genuinely sincere. In that sense, it's fair to say that she stood by her beliefs and made her point, and was careful to make no kind of disruptive or public criticism of our different way of doing things.

In my view - and I suspect you'll agree - that's a whole lot more considerate, sensitive, intelligent and mature than "taking a stand".

Well that begs the question why you laughed at her letter ?

Stheno · 06-09-2015 7:46pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Well that begs the question why you laughed at her letter ?

They did so privately and appreciated the thank you but laughed at it being suggested they get married in a church

I didn't see anything offensive in the post, I thought it was actually nice

06-09-2015 7:54pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Well that begs the question why you laughed at her letter ?

Because the juxtaposition of the one-liner and the rest of the letter tickled our senses of humour, I s'pose.

A few years later, the lady passed away. There was a religious funeral - a Catholic funeral. We went. We didn't mount any protests; there didn't seem to be any need. And anyway I'm an atheist, so it's not like I thought she'd notice a protest.

A few years after that, her sister passed away. Not only was that funeral religious, but it had one or two references to her beloved Celtic FC. I didn't turn my back on those - and if I can tolerate that, you can be sure I've no problem coping with someone having a ceremony in their own religious system to mark their passing or their marriage.

It's an hour (or less) out of one's life; I don't think showing respect for someone else is really that hard.

seamus · 09-09-2015 11:30am

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I have no fear of kneeling. If theres no god then whats the problem?

It is in fact the more respectful position. The purpose of kneeling is to pray, to show deference. A non-believer kneeling is in effect pretending to partake in the ceremony, which is more disrespectful than just sitting there silently.

Do beliefs themselves require respect? No, of course not. But in the interests of being a decent human being, lines need to be drawn. You're in their clubhouse by choice, celebrating a ceremony for presumably good friends in the way that they want to celebrate it. The respect you are showing is for the couple, and their choices and/or those around you. Not for the beliefs themselves.

Going out of your way to be disrespectful during a ceremony to which you voluntarily attended is like turning up to a house party as an invited guest and then complaining about it all night.

Samaris · 10-09-2015 12:24pm

To be honest, if I was invited to a religious ceremony of any stripe, be it Pagan, Catholic, Sikh, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, I would follow what the people on each side of me were doing and take part in it is as much as I could out of respect for the sincerely held beliefs of those around me. It wouldn't really bother me if I was "going against my beliefs", because, say if I was Catholic, I would hope that my God would understand that this was "love thy neighbour", and if I was atheist, I think my brain could cope with the concept of it mattering to others and I would take in the new experience and see if I could understand why others felt so strongly about it.

Wouldn't take Communion specifically, because that has very strong significance to Catholics and certain honour-bound rules about when and how you take it, but wouldn't bother me to recite prayers or to kneel and meditate/think for a few minutes. If it was a similar..oh, I dunno, everyone sips from a cup as a symbol of brotherhood and shared experience, I would, if I didn't know there was some reason I definitely shouldn't. If I'm a guest at someone else's ceremony, it's about -them- and their ceremony and I'm privileged to take part in it. I wouldn't consider myself a hypocrite for doing so.

When in Rome..

Akrasia · 10-09-2015 2:55pm

kylith wrote: »

^This.

When it comes to the shaking hands I shake hands but just smile. Or you can always just say 'Pleased to meet you'; since it sounds so similar it should pass without comment.

I don't mind saying the 'peas be with you' thing because even if you don't like them, you should still eat your vegetables.

robindch · 10-09-2015 3:04pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I don't mind saying the 'peas be with you' thing because even if you don't like them, you should still eat your vegetables.

Well, having lived in the deep countryside when this was introduced, and remembering some of the strong smells that accompanied some churchgoers, we used to use a word that sounded quite like "peace/peas" too.

Akrasia · 10-09-2015 3:06pm

Samaris wrote: »

To be honest, if I was invited to a religious ceremony of any stripe, be it Pagan, Catholic, Sikh, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, I would follow what the people on each side of me were doing and take part in it is as much as I could out of respect for the sincerely held beliefs of those around me. It wouldn't really bother me if I was "going against my beliefs", because, say if I was Catholic, I would hope that my God would understand that this was "love thy neighbour", and if I was atheist, I think my brain could cope with the concept of it mattering to others and I would take in the new experience and see if I could understand why others felt so strongly about it.

Wouldn't take Communion specifically, because that has very strong significance to Catholics and certain honour-bound rules about when and how you take it, but wouldn't bother me to recite prayers or to kneel and meditate/think for a few minutes. If it was a similar..oh, I dunno, everyone sips from a cup as a symbol of brotherhood and shared experience, I would, if I didn't know there was some reason I definitely shouldn't. If I'm a guest at someone else's ceremony, it's about -them- and their ceremony and I'm privileged to take part in it. I wouldn't consider myself a hypocrite for doing so.

When in Rome..

I'll do the standing thing and the sitting thing and the scooting forward and pretending to kneel thing, but I won't say any of the prayers (including blessing myself) because they all involve 'professing faith' which I don't have, and it would be disrespectful to lie just to fit in.

I'll attend if I'm invited out of respect for the couple but I won't participate in the religious elements that don't involve me.

I always find church wedding ceremonies long boring uncomfortable snoozefests occasionally interspersed with moments of horror at what the gospels actually say and incredulity at how anyone can take those readings seriously.

I remember being at a wedding where this was the gospel

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word I have spoken unto you. Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it remains in the vine; so neither can you, unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit: for away from me you can do nothing. If a man does not remain in me, he is thrown away as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, ask whatsoever you will, and it shall be done unto you” (John 15:1-7 )

Apart from the fact that a leaving cert student would have written a more poetic piece of prose, I was listening to a priest telling me that I was a withered branch that will be thrown into the fire and burned.

Michael OBrien · 10-09-2015 5:25pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Apart from the fact that a leaving cert student would have written a more poetic piece of prose, I was listening to a priest telling me that I was a withered branch that will be thrown into the fire and burned.

Yeah I have had that experience when forced to attend such events. I can only imagine that the other people there simply turn their minds off, or have a filter up so not to see how horrible their scriptures are.

Then they claim it is all about love. Yeah, sure. Don't believe in jesus?, wither and die, then burn. Makes my stomach turn.

J C · 11-09-2015 6:34pm

robindch wrote: »

Some people probably find it quite painful. And I'd say quite a few atheists and agnostics don't like signalling deference and respect towards an organization and a set of ideas which they feel deserves a mixture of pity, fear, ridicule and disgust.

I don't get this ... I have attended all kinds of ceremonies involving all religions and none ... and I have never felt any need to go 'grandstanding' on my own beliefs.
I respected the people involved and I therefore joined in with whatever everyone present was doing.
If I didn't want to do this, then I think a gracious non-attendance would be the way to go.
Respect for difference isn't expressed by ridicule or disgust IMO.

Michael OBrien · 12-09-2015 11:11am

J C wrote: »

I don't get this ... I have attended all kinds of ceremonies involving all religions and none ... and I have never felt any need to go 'grandstanding' on my own beliefs.
I respected the people involved and I therefore joined in with whatever everyone present was doing.
If I didn't want to do this, then I think a gracious non-attendance would be the way to go.
Respect for difference isn't expressed by ridicule or disgust IMO.

In Ireland a lot of family events orbit around religious events. You cannot exclude yourself from all of them or you basically become a pariah in both the community and your family and friends.
It is not grandstanding to find the organisation and/or certain practices unpleasant. Atheists don't turn up with the famous quote from the God Delusion on their chests, that would be grandstanding. People recognize that not everyone is catholic or christian nowadays and accept that certain practices will be ignored. Some christians are more insulted if an atheist pretends to be a christian, saying prayers they don't mean, miming actual christians, etc.

"respect for difference isn't expressed by ridicule or disgust IMO." I wish more christians took that attitude towards atheists and homosexuals. Good for you.

Jonotti · 12-09-2015 12:44pm

Michael OBrien wrote: »

In Ireland a lot of family events orbit around religious events. You cannot exclude yourself from all of them or you basically become a pariah in both the community and your family and friends.
It is not grandstanding to find the organisation and/or certain practices unpleasant. Atheists don't turn up with the famous quote from the God Delusion on their chests, that would be grandstanding. People recognize that not everyone is catholic or christian nowadays and accept that certain practices will be ignored. Some christians are more insulted if an atheist pretends to be a christian, saying prayers they don't mean, miming actual christians, etc.

"respect for difference isn't expressed by ridicule or disgust IMO." I wish more christians took that attitude towards atheists and homosexuals. Good for you.

Exactly. Turning your back is a tiny physical action that does not affect anybody else.

haveringchick · 12-09-2015 2:13pm

Jonotti wrote: »

Exactly. Turning your back is a tiny physical action that does not affect anybody else.

Believe it or not Jon it's highly likely that the other guests at the wedding are in the church to see their loved ones marry. It seems you find it difficult to grasp that it's possible that nobody else present gives a tuppeny toss wether you are an atheist or a contemplative monk.
What will happen is that if you make a huge fuss by getting up to turn around so that you've given the finger so to speak to the alter, is that it will cause some other guests to turn their attention to you. And it's the B&Gs day. Not yours. Difficult as that must be for you it remains an indisputable fact. Is it so hard for you to just not go to places where you can't control yourself?

Lord Riverside · 12-09-2015 2:22pm

It's an invitation to your friends function (or at least they're under the impression that you are their friend), you're not required to accept the invitation or be there.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-09-2015 8:46pm

Jonotti wrote: »

Exactly. Turning your back is a tiny physical action that does not affect anybody else.

I'm a harsh critic of religion of all types, but I can only describe that as dickish.

Jonotti · 12-09-2015 10:00pm

haveringchick wrote: »

Believe it or not Jon it's highly likely that the other guests at the wedding are in the church to see their loved ones marry. It seems you find it difficult to grasp that it's possible that nobody else present gives a tuppeny toss wether you are an atheist or a contemplative monk.
What will happen is that if you make a huge fuss by getting up to turn around so that you've given the finger so to speak to the alter, is that it will cause some other guests to turn their attention to you. And it's the B&Gs day. Not yours. Difficult as that must be for you it remains an indisputable fact. Is it so hard for you to just not go to places where you can't control yourself?

Maybe I will take on too much attention if I'm on my own but somebody has to make a start. Say in ten years time people might expect 10-15 people to turn their back, understand what it means and not take offence to it.

12-09-2015 10:17pm

Michael OBrien wrote: »

It is not grandstanding to find the organisation and/or certain practices unpleasant.

On the other hand, it would be grandstanding to behave in an unpleasant, rude or immature manner towards the people who have invited you.

Note that I say "would be" rather than "is", for the simple reason that nobody actually behaves that way. They might pretend to on an internet forum, but that's all it is - pretending.

robindch · 12-09-2015 10:18pm

J C wrote: »

Respect for difference isn't expressed by ridicule or disgust IMO.

I'm not quite sure what this "respect for difference" is - I suppose the top four things I "respect" must be honesty, generosity, humor and smarts - I'm not fully sure why I'd want to respect something that's the opposite of any of them.

.

J C · 12-09-2015 10:28pm

Michael OBrien wrote: »

In Ireland a lot of family events orbit around religious events. You cannot exclude yourself from all of them or you basically become a pariah in both the community and your family and friends.
It is not grandstanding to find the organisation and/or certain practices unpleasant. Atheists don't turn up with the famous quote from the God Delusion on their chests, that would be grandstanding. People recognize that not everyone is catholic or christian nowadays and accept that certain practices will be ignored. Some christians are more insulted if an atheist pretends to be a christian, saying prayers they don't mean, miming actual christians, etc.

"respect for difference isn't expressed by ridicule or disgust IMO." I wish more christians took that attitude towards atheists and homosexuals. Good for you.

I agree with practically everything you have said.
I would just add that we all shouldn't 'wear our beliefs on our sleeves' at all times and discretion can be the better part of valor.
Just like it would be churlish to attend a civil wedding, for example, and then start doing everything opposite to what is expected from winesses at such a wedding, to make some kind of point about your disagreement with the concept of civil marriage, if that were your point of view ...
... it is equally churlish IMO to do the same thing, for example, at a religious wedding service to make some kind of point about your disagreement with the concept of religious marriage, if that were your point of view.

Live and let live and respect everyone ... and if you can't do this, then graciously stay at home would be my advice.

12-09-2015 10:34pm

robindch wrote: »

I'm not fully sure why I'd want to respect something that's different from them.

My Christian (for that, read mostly Catholic) friends and workmates are smart, honest, generous and funny. They are those things to varying degrees, just as my atheist friends and colleagues are.

People of particular religions sometimes feel less than fully respectful towards people of other religions. Why? Fundamentally, because they believe they are right about something really important and the other people are wrong. When they behave badly towards people of other religions, that is (quite rightly) defined as sectarian behaviour.

It is also sectarian behaviour for people of religious faith to behave badly towards people who do not have a religious faith, and the same applies the other way round. They may not realise that, but it is. Sectarian behaviour is not just something that one lot of Christians visits on another.

It is also common for people who behave in a sectarian way to blame the people on the other side, and to excuse their own sectarian behaviour on the grounds that "they do it as well". If you are behaving in a sectarian way that is your own fault completely and unreservedly; you don't get a pass because someone else behaves poorly or because you think they do.

We don't have to agree with what other people believe, and they don't have to agree with us. But we do have to respect their right to have a belief system, and they have to respect ours. Anything else is sectarianism, plain and simple.

And bad enough as it is to pick on Protestants, Muslims, atheists or some other group as a target for sectarian behaviour, the notion that a person would accept an invitation from a friend to a religious ceremony and then use that as a form of "protest" just doesn't compute - and, let's face it, just doesn't happen in the real world.

J C · 12-09-2015 10:35pm

robindch wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what this "respect for difference" is

It is certainly a buzz-word in modern parlance.
... and I think it is actually a good thing, in any pluralist society ... and liberals (and pseudo-liberals) generally purport to espouse it.

robindch wrote: »

I suppose the top four things I "respect" must be honesty, generosity, humor and smarts - I'm not fully sure why I'd want to respect something that's different from them.

I'm talking about respecting every person.
Feel free to (diplomatically) challenge their beliefs, by all means ... but don't cry foul if they, in turn, challenge yours.

BTW, diplomatically challenging somebodies beliefs doesn't include doing so on their wedding day (it's not the time or the place). I shouldn't even have to say this ... but looking at some of the posts on this thread, I obviously have to !!!

We can have our differences and still respect each other. Indeed it is essential to respect each other, to ensure a peaceful society.
Insulting somebody is classed as behaviour likely to lead to a breach of the peace, in an inter-personal situation ... and because of this it is a criminal offence.

Indeed, I'm quite sure that gratuitously disrupting a (civil or religious) wedding ceremony or engaging in anti-social behavour at it, would also fall foul of the law ... and quite right too. At best, you could be asked to leave ... and at worst, you could find your shoulder being felt by the long arm of the law.:eek:

DK man · 12-09-2015 10:44pm

MouseTail wrote: »

What would you do if you were invited to a Muslim/Hindu/Jewish/Humanist ceremony. I assume you would follow and mimic the crowd? Just do the same out of courtesy and respect to your hosts, fellow guests, as well as the true believers there.

I went to a civil ceremony recently and even though I was tripping over cliché poetry and candles I went with the flow.

You don't have to go to the church - I would prefer a person who felt very uncomfortable at my wedding to just go to,the pub and join the party afterwards instead of feeling so out of sorts when asked to stand up and kneel down a few times etc...

This is not the right time to make big bold statements - just stay away

Jonotti · 12-09-2015 10:49pm

Would you expect muslim friends to not attend or would you expect the to follow catholic procedures during the wedding?

robindch · 12-09-2015 11:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But we do have to respect their right to have a belief system, and they have to respect ours. Anything else is sectarianism, plain and simple.

Not in the slightest. I respect entirely somebody else's right to hold a belief and expect the same in return. However, that doesn't imply that I hold any respect for the belief itself. Quite the opposite usually - somebody who bangs on that I should respect their belief has lost the battle for respect entirely.

You also have a peculiar understanding of the word "sectarian" - the word itself implies some identification with some kind of sect. Atheists don't divide themselves along sectarian lines. We tend to be more of an equal-opportunities lot - detesting all religions fairly equally.

Deleted User wrote: »

My Christian (for that, read mostly Catholic) friends and workmates are smart, honest, generous and funny. They are those things to varying degrees, just as my atheist friends and colleagues are.

Varying degrees, yes. However, whether by self-selection or some other way, I find a noticeable difference between atheists and religious on all those fronts. Your mileage may differ.

Stheno · 12-09-2015 11:07pm

Jonotti wrote: »

Maybe I will take on too much attention if I'm on my own but somebody has to make a start. Say in ten years time people might expect 10-15 people to turn their back, understand what it means and not take offence to it.

One would hope that in ten years times good manners would still prevail

Jonotti wrote: »

Would you expect muslim friends to not attend or would you expect the to follow catholic procedures during the wedding?

Muslims are under strict rules according to their faith. They may attend a wedding or funeral in a Catholic Church, but may not pray. Slightly different from your stance.

J C · 12-09-2015 11:29pm

Jonotti wrote: »

Exactly. Turning your back is a tiny physical action that does not affect anybody else.

Most serious offences are tiny physical actions ... and believe me, people (and the law) do take them very seriously indeed.

Attending a Church wedding

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