Attending a Church wedding

G Spark

Hi. First time posting in this forum.

I'm attending a church (Catholic) wedding of two friends soon. Neither of them are really devout/practicing (as far as I know) and seem to be having the ceremony in the church as it's "the done thing".

My question is; do I have to kneel and stand at all the various times throughout the mass? I'll obviously stand when the bride arrives and the couple exit but for the prayers, readings etc, am I expected to stand/kneel?

Thanks

GalwayGrrrrrl

I would kneel and stand when everyone else does. When people go for communion just sit quietly until the priest starts talking again.

Zubeneschamali

xfactorfan23 wrote: »

I would kneel and stand when everyone else does. When people go for communion just sit quietly until the priest starts talking again.

Then light some Chinese firecrackers and toot your airhorn.

(Sorry.)

No religious person is going to take it amiss if you don't kneel (as long as you aren't in the way when they try to kneel). Some very religious people might actually get offended.

Wabbit Ears

I just sit through it all. Several others usually do also.

I lean/scoot forward when kneeling bits happen as the person behind usually puts their hands on the back of the seat so it's just plain manners not to inconvenience them.

iora_rua

Speaking/typing as a 'collapsed' Catholic ... I only attend as many weddings/funerals/anniversaries as are necessary to keep the relatives happy ... just be polite. There's a fair bit of kneeling/standing/sitting etc ... think of it as a portion of your required healthy exercise for the day! Simply lag a few seconds behind what everyone else around you is doing. The bit that really annoys me is the 'shaking hands with those around you' bit, which I, personally, think is responsible for the spread of colds/flu/and whatever you're having yourself - and serves no useful purpose. Have a few euro coins in your purse/pocket for the inevitable collection, and you should then survive the experience! Enjoy the day - it's not that difficult ... at least it's not in the local mosque

GerB40

I personally do all that craic, the kneeling and standing and stuff, out of respect for whatever reason I'm in a church for. The only difference is that I don't bless myself or take communion. I've only been called out on this once. An old lady asked me why I wasn't blessing myself. I just said "I'm not a Catholic". She didn't seem to mind, I assume she thought I was church of Ireland (because there's such a huge difference).. Do whatever you think is right, as an Atheist, the only difference between you and the believers is that you don't believe in their god. What to do during mass is entirely up to you..

seamus

I stand, I don't kneel. Staying sitting when everyone else is standing makes some people very uncomfortable. In the interests of not being a dick about it, I just stand to convenience others. And scooch forward at the kneeling bit so the guy behind you isn't on top of you and again feeling uncomfortable.

If I can get away with it (i.e. I barely know the people) then I'll stand or sit in the back and you don't have to do anything then.

kylith

seamus wrote: »

I stand, I don't kneel. Staying sitting when everyone else is standing makes some people very uncomfortable. In the interests of not being a dick about it, I just stand to convenience others. And scooch forward at the kneeling bit so the guy behind you isn't on top of you and again feeling uncomfortable.

If I can get away with it (i.e. I barely know the people) then I'll stand or sit in the back and you don't have to do anything then.

^This.

When it comes to the shaking hands I shake hands but just smile. Or you can always just say 'Pleased to meet you'; since it sounds so similar it should pass without comment.

I also like to mentally convert the church into a house to pass the time. I can never decide whether to put a second floor in or to leave it open to the roof so as not to impede the windows. Granted you get fewer bedrooms doing it that way, but it's so much more dramatic. Definitely the master bedroom in the choir balcony and a library in the bell tower.

eeguy

xfactorfan23 wrote: »

I would kneel and stand when everyone else does. When people go for communion just sit quietly until the priest starts talking again.

Pretty much this.

You're going through the motions only because you respect your friends choice to have a religious wedding, not because you're religious yourself.

Don't bother with any of the responses, don't bother with the communion, maybe throw a few coppers into the basket if you feel like it.

Personally I sing songs in my head until the whole thing is over.

Cabaal

I'll stand on occasion, I'll sit but I'll never kneel in a church.... I stopped that a long time ago and nobody cares or has said anything to me.

Stand when everyone else is standing, sit when they're kneeling
Do the hand shaking bit because sure it's a nice gesture and sentiment
Don't go to communion of course

Peregrinus

Up to you. It's unlikely that anyone else in the church will pay any attention to your posture unless you go out of the way to draw attention to yourself. So, no tap-dancing.

In general the point of attending any celebration is to participate in it; if you don't want to participate, your best option is not to attend at all. So as a rough rule of thumb you should do what others are doing, unless you find it seriously inappropriate or dishonest, given your own beliefs. For most unbelievers, standing when others stand is not a problem, but kneeling is a bit more than they are comfortable with. But you have to find your own comfort level on these things.

It's not uncommon for some people to sit when most others are kneeling. This could be because they are not religious, or because they have bad knees/a bad back. Nobody around you will give it much thought.

It's generally considered polite, though, if you are sitting while others are kneeling, not to lean back, as this may inconvenience someone kneeling in the pew behind you.

If you decide to sit while others are standing, you'll stick out a little bit more but, again, people do this for reasons of comfort or because of a back problem, so it's no big deal.

Enjoy the wedding!

Shrap

bluewolf wrote: »

Stand when everyone else is standing, sit when they're kneeling
Do the hand shaking bit because sure it's a nice gesture and sentiment
Don't go to communion of course

Same as that. I don't mind standing, because it's purpose is only to mark respect or somesuch thing. Kneeling, on the other hand, is for the purpose of prayer and I don't pray. I do shuffle forward a bit, like the others said. Mostly I try to sit at the back so I don't even have to scootch forward.

MouseTail

What would you do if you were invited to a Muslim/Hindu/Jewish/Humanist ceremony. I assume you would follow and mimic the crowd? Just do the same out of courtesy and respect to your hosts, fellow guests, as well as the true believers there.

Shrap

MouseTail wrote: »

What would you do if you were invited to a Muslim/Hindu/Jewish/Humanist ceremony. I assume you would follow and mimic the crowd? Just do the same out of courtesy and respect to your hosts, fellow guests, as well as the true believers there.

Me? Not really. I wouldn't pray when told it's time to pray for example, and so I wouldn't kneel or do whatever action it is any of those religions (humanism excluded) observe in their act of prayer. If it's a simple case of turning to your neighbour, shaking their hand and saying "peace be with you", then why wouldn't I? I have to be true to myself, just like religious people are. The hosts and fellow guests would presumably extend the same courtesy and respect to my own values as I would to them, so an atheist not joining in the actions required specifically of their religious devotion is actually respectful.

johnnyskeleton

If you genuinely dont believe in god, what difference does it make if you take part in the ceremony? Millions of backpackers in India take part in religious ceremonies for "the experience" and dont have a problem with it. People go to dinner parties and compliment the host on their burnt lamb and undercooked potatoes without flinching. Parents bring their kids to one direction concerts and pretend they are enjoying the music. This is all part of social convention and politeness.

If you were of a different religion e.g. Muslim, I can see how it could offend your beliefs by taking part, but if you dont believe in God, and your only objection is a social/political objection to the catholic church, then it shouldnt be too much of an issue to just hold your tongue for the sake of your friends.

Skipping communion, as suggested, is a subtle way of not participating and avoids the most symbolically significant part of the mass.

But if you sit at the back deliberately avoiding any of the gestures, it may come accross as "look at me, Im better than all of you" or as an affront to the bride and groom. By analogy, suppose you had a secular wedding yourself and a religious pal turned up but refused to get involved in the ceremony and made it clear that they were unhappy with the ceremony. You might think they were critical of younon your wedding day, and youd probably wish they would just blend in as much as possible.

eviltwin

I don't kneel or say the words but I sit and stand on cue. I find that a good compromise, I'm there, I'm respectful, I'm not drawing attention to myself but neither am I making a mockery of the service or speaking untruths.

Shrap

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If you genuinely dont believe in god, what difference does it make if you take part in the ceremony? Millions of backpackers in India take part in religious ceremonies for "the experience" and dont have a problem with it. People go to dinner parties and compliment the host on their burnt lamb and undercooked potatoes without flinching. Parents bring their kids to one direction concerts and pretend they are enjoying the music. This is all part of social convention and politeness.

If you were of a different religion e.g. Muslim, I can see how it could offend your beliefs by taking part, but if you dont believe in God, and your only objection is a social/political objection to the catholic church, then it shouldnt be too much of an issue to just hold your tongue for the sake of your friends.

Skipping communion, as suggested, is a subtle way of not participating and avoids the most symbolically significant part of the mass.

But if you sit at the back deliberately avoiding any of the gestures, it may come accross as "look at me, Im better than all of you" or as an affront to the bride and groom. By analogy, suppose you had a secular wedding yourself and a religious pal turned up but refused to get involved in the ceremony and made it clear that they were unhappy with the ceremony. You might think they were critical of younon your wedding day, and youd probably wish they would just blend in as much as possible.

Nobody is required to perform any religious devotion OR sacrilegious action during a secular wedding, any more than they would be at a community association meeting so your last point above is not a point.

As for the bolded part, let me get this straight. Are you genuinely saying that it would be more respectful for an atheist to attend and pretend to be a believer than it would be to respect other's beliefs by not pretending to hold them?

Rubberchikken

i'm willing to bet no one will care whether you stand or kneel at any of the time. as a former church goer, i noticed that some, esp elderly or a person with a small kid on lap, would stay sitting. no one seemed to bat an eyelash.

just basic manners would dictate a person, who is physically able, should stand/kneel when others do. after all you'll probably do much the same as everyone else at the reception later - so why not in the church too? it's only one hour out of life.

enjoy the day

Shrap

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not drawing attention to myself but neither am I making a mockery of the service or speaking untruths.

That. Is the point being missed.

kylith

Or, it's more respectful to not participate because a) you'll get it wrong and b) it can be seen as a mockery; the atheist pretending like he believes - "who are you coming in here and saying my sacred words when you don't believe them".

And as others have said; I'm not going to stand there and say "I believe in one god" when I don't. I'm not going to say "I'm not worthy" when I don't believe it. I'm not going to kneel and prostrate myself to something I don't believe in.

robindch

seamus wrote: »

I stand, I don't kneel. Staying sitting when everyone else is standing makes some people very uncomfortable. In the interests of not being a dick about it, I just stand to convenience others. And scooch forward at the kneeling bit so the guy behind you isn't on top of you and again feeling uncomfortable.

That's what I do too.

Though I'd add that if you've not been to a church for a long time, you'll find the whole thing quite trippy. So remember not to giggle (seriously).

Otherwise, well, sit back and enjoy the music.

oakshade

How about skipping the church piece completely?

The bride and groom most likely won't notice (no offence meant to you, I'm sure they will be preoccupied by the ceremony) and you get some extra time before you all meet up at the hotel/reception afterwards?

MrPudding

robindch wrote: »

That's what I do too.

Though I'd add that if you've not been to a church for a long time, you'll find the whole thing quite trippy. So remember not to giggle (seriously).

Otherwise, well, sit back and enjoy the music.

I have been to two weddings in the last two weeks. The first was in a stunning church in Krakow. It was a catholic service, but thankfully it was in Polish, so I did not understand a word and therefore the risk of giggles was greatly reduced. I sat and I stood when required, but I did not kneel. I would like to say I kneel for no man (or god), but that probably isn't true, but I won't kneel for a religious service.

The second wedding was in Edinburgh Zoo. It was an actual wedding of humans in being and it was a Humanist ceremony, the first I have attended. I have to say, it really was a very pleasant ceremony. I would highly recommend it.

MrP

Mr. CooL ICE

bluewolf wrote: »

Stand when everyone else is standing, sit when they're kneeling
Do the hand shaking bit because sure it's a nice gesture and sentiment
Don't go to communion of course

This.

Mumbling "biz biz bizyoo" when shaking hands also works.

robindch

MrPudding wrote: »

It was a catholic service, but thankfully it was in Polish, so I did not understand a word and therefore the risk of giggles was greatly reduced.

Funny, I had the opposite experience a couple of years back here in Dublin where a Russian friend of mine was marrying a French guy in a catholic church only thinly occupied by the families of the two victims. I was one of the few native English speakers there and aside from the organist, I think just about the only person familiar with what happens once the church doors slam shut.

Ended up having to do an occasional ringside commentary in English, French and Russian to keep each side clued up on what was what and what the gravely-intoned, clearly-spoken, but completely alien instructions from the priest actually meant - "Yes, you have to shake hands with everybody now"; "No, kneel!!"; "Now, you can go up and have one of those biscuits which the priest is waving around."; etc, etc)

All in all, quite memorable.

G Spark

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If you genuinely dont believe in god, what difference does it make if you take part in the ceremony? Millions of backpackers in India take part in religious ceremonies for "the experience" and dont have a problem with it. People go to dinner parties and compliment the host on their burnt lamb and undercooked potatoes without flinching. Parents bring their kids to one direction concerts and pretend they are enjoying the music. This is all part of social convention and politeness.

If you were of a different religion e.g. Muslim, I can see how it could offend your beliefs by taking part, but if you dont believe in God, and your only objection is a social/political objection to the catholic church, then it shouldnt be too much of an issue to just hold your tongue for the sake of your friends.

Skipping communion, as suggested, is a subtle way of not participating and avoids the most symbolically significant part of the mass.

But if you sit at the back deliberately avoiding any of the gestures, it may come accross as "look at me, Im better than all of you" or as an affront to the bride and groom. By analogy, suppose you had a secular wedding yourself and a religious pal turned up but refused to get involved in the ceremony and made it clear that they were unhappy with the ceremony. You might think they were critical of younon your wedding day, and youd probably wish they would just blend in as much as possible.

Shrap wrote: »

Nobody is required to perform any religious devotion OR sacrilegious action during a secular wedding, any more than they would be at a community association meeting so your last point above is not a point.

As for the bolded part, let me get this straight. Are you genuinely saying that it would be more respectful for an atheist to attend and pretend to be a believer than it would be to respect other's beliefs by not pretending to hold them?

Would like clarification on that also johnnyskeleton?

Also in relation to your first paragraph, I'm not keen on being fake/a liar in the name of politeness.

I've decided I'll stand when necessary but won't utter a word throughout the ceremony or kneel and that's about it. Thanks for the opinions/advice.

MrPudding

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

By analogy, suppose you had a secular wedding yourself and a religious pal turned up but refused to get involved in the ceremony and made it clear that they were unhappy with the ceremony. You might think they were critical of younon your wedding day, and youd probably wish they would just blend in as much as possible.

Having very recently attended such a wedding, the only way one could refuse to "get involved" would be by not listening, and I am not sure how one would do that... There is no taking part, there is only being there.

MrP

Shrap

robindch wrote: »

you'll find the whole thing quite trippy. So remember not to giggle (seriously).

This is true. I was at a family wedding at the start of the summer holidays and brought my eldest, who is entirely unused to churches of any kind, shape or form. He questioned me thoroughly on etiquette beforehand (gave him the exact same advice as I said here....) but I actually had to kick him after the priest said something idiotic and sexist in the midst of the Mass (the jokey part, where he tried and failed to put my cousin and her betrothed at ease....) and eldest had an involuntary teenage eye-rolling spasm.

It can be quite weird, in that everyone around you is totally fine and cool with whatever the priest is saying. It can be difficult to hold your peace *.


*I'm contrasting this with my beloved late aunt's funeral a month later during which people literally spoke up from the floor about her addiction to internet shopping and her particular run of bad luck with shoes. That was a fun funeral.

Kivaro

robindch wrote: »

......
Otherwise, well, sit back and enjoy the music.

That's when I start to giggle.

MouseTail

MrPudding wrote: »

Having very recently attended such a wedding, the only way one could refuse to "get involved" would be by not listening, and I am not sure how one would do that... There is no taking part, there is only being there.

MrP

The bride and groom can introduce all sorts of weird stuff involved in such weddings, shaking of a sand vase, writing wishes to be put into a clay pot etc. You either partake of the ceremonial rituals or not, its a bit teenage to say I will partake in those I believe in, but not those I don't, when its a wedding, funeral , coming of age etc of a friend. You are quite priviged to be there.

ZeroThreat

I recall back in the 1980's when Ben Briscoe was Lord Mayor of Dublin he attended St. Agnes Church in Crumlin and remained sitting throughout the whole mass.

recedite

kylith wrote: »

I also like to mentally convert the church into a house to pass the time. I can never decide whether to put a second floor in or to leave it open to the roof so as not to impede the windows. Granted you get fewer bedrooms doing it that way, but it's so much more dramatic. Definitely the master bedroom in the choir balcony and a library in the bell tower.

Have you considered adding a mezzanine around the two sides?

Some churches have a mezzanine type structure at the back, always the most fun place to sit, and you can do what you like there cos people down below can't really see you. You'll have to scout around in the lobby area and look for the secret door leading to a staircase. Don't make the mistake of rushing into the main cavern, just because it looks like its about to start any second now. The show always takes ages to start.
One time I was happily ensconced up in the mezz balcony, but after about half an hour somebody was sent up and asked us to move down to the ground floor area, because apparently nobody had been up there for years. Not since it was declared an unsafe structure due to the woodworm. No warning signs on entering the staircase though.
On the rare times I go to a church, I like to get a good seat. If the mezzanine balcony is closed, there are always loads of empty seats near the front, for some reason. Probably reserved for atheists.
As a last resort, sit with the relatives :pac:

Kidchameleon

Op why not be a real hard man and throw out a few tut's / giggles / rolley eyes?

robindch

Mod:

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Op why not be a real hard man and throw out a few tut's / giggles / rolley eyes?

Kid - Not sure what has you in such a bad mood this Friday lunchtime, but if you've nothing useful to add to this conversation, then feel free to take your silly comments elsewhere.

Zillah

bluewolf wrote: »

Stand when everyone else is standing, sit when they're kneeling
Do the hand shaking bit because sure it's a nice gesture and sentiment
Don't go to communion of course

I stand when they sit, and kneel when they stand, and sit when they kneel, and I shake hands when they're all trying to listen to yer man on the stage.

JohnBee

Just make sure to avoid the holy water, it really burns.....

Hotblack Desiato

Someone here once memorably described the stand up, sit down, kneel, repeat, thing as 'catholic pilates'

haveringchick

OP you'd better take all the advice here and sit at the back giggling like an 9 year old school girl or else :
1. The focus in the church would be on the B&G and not on you
and
2. Other guests won't realise that your a cool edgy atheist. And they really really need to know that
Whatever you do don't simply sit in the church like a mature adult showing respect for your hosts and not drawing attention to yourself.

Lord Riverside

I suppose as non religion is a fairly new thing to the Irish, some people seem confused as to what to do when invited to a friend's ceremony.
I have been fortunate enough to be an invited guest to many eclectic functions and ceremonies over the years, from Hindu weddings to Sikh funerals.
As I do at any function I'm invited to, I sit when people sit, I stand when people stand, I don't join in with the prayers, but I'll join in with any non religious aspects / sentiments. Kneeling or praying is not required by any non Catholics, unless of course you simply wish to make room for the person kneeling behind you.

haveringchick

Lord Riverside wrote: »

I suppose as non religion is a fairly new thing to the Irish, some people seem confused as to what to do when invited to a friend's ceremony.
I have been fortunate enough to be an invited guest to many eclectic functions and ceremonies over the years, from Hindu weddings to Sikh funerals.
As I do at any function I'm invited to, I sit when people sit, I stand when people stand, I don't join in with the prayers, but I'll join in with any non religious aspects / sentiments. Kneeling or praying is not required by any non Catholics, unless of course you simply wish to make room for the person kneeling behind you.

It's so easy to be respectful, polite and mannerly, in other words to be a nice guest.
Unfortunately as you can see from this thread, the urge to behave like an utter d**khead overwhelms those less well reared then yourself.

OU812

To quote a movie I once saw [It may have been Superman II]:

"I kneel before neither man nor God".

I think it would be disrespectful of me to their religion to partake in it while I very obviously don't believe in it.

The more difficult part is not shaking hands.

I'd attend out of respect for the person involved rather than the event.

pconn062

Sit, never kneel. Stand if necessary. Shake hands and smile politely. Grimace at the crappy music. Try not to fall asleep when the priest is yakking on. Smile a little when the couple (who haven't been to mass since they were 15) make all sorts of promises about being a good Catholic and bringing their future kids to mass.

God, I hate weddings.

Kidchameleon

I have no fear of kneeling. If theres no god then whats the problem?

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I have no fear of kneeling. If theres no god then whats the problem?

Some people probably find it quite painful. And I'd say quite a few atheists and agnostics don't like signalling deference and respect towards an organization and a set of ideas which they feel deserves a mixture of pity, fear, ridicule and disgust.

Cabaal

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I have no fear of kneeling. If theres no god then whats the problem?

Cause it's showing an acknowledgement and respect to the very belief of a god, I wouldn't show respect for the belief of thor or oden so I wouldn't do it for a Christian God either.

I wouldn't kneel before an alter before sitting or even use a bishops title either, ill use their proper name.

Respect is earned, not just blindly given.

WheatenBriar

Shrap wrote: »

As for the bolded part, let me get this straight. Are you genuinely saying that it would be more respectful for an atheist to attend and pretend to be a believer than it would be to respect other's beliefs by not pretending to hold them?

Shur most of the other people are also pretending

Seriously though,its in my opinion daft to be fervent about non beliefs in something
What matters is the fact that you don't believe and obviously people at the wedding who know the OP know this
For an atheist There is no God after all,so standing,kneeling or even reciting the poem's or prayers is just part of the couples ceremony, nothing else
Making an issue out of it is to be angry about somebody elses beliefs
Thats fair enough, but theres a time and a place for that and I would suggest the happy couples big day isn't it

Jonotti

I'm a staunch atheist and also a campaigner against the particular evils of the catholic church. My friends know my opinions well at this stage and its usually not a problem.
I tell them that I will celebrate their marriage but I will turn my back on anything said by the priest that is generic bible stuff and not directly related to the bride and groom.

Most said fine, whatever maybe don't sit near the front. One told me not to come if that was the case but I don't really care much for her. I think we all need to take whatever stand we can and not be hypocrites in our day to day life.

Zillah

I'm sorry, do you mean you'll literally turn around during the ceremony?

Just don't go, you drama queen.

Jonotti

Zillah wrote: »

I'm sorry, do you mean you'll literally turn around during the ceremony?

Just don't go, you drama queen.

Yes, somebody has to take a stand. If all atheists did this then the godless couples of Ireland wouldn't be so quick to have their ceremonies in a church.

Stheno

robindch wrote: »

Some people probably find it quite painful.

Anyone with knee problems might. I've a damaged knee and my surgeon warned me I'd always have trouble kneeling

Was at a funeral recenttly and stopped kneeling as it was too painful