The Irish language is failing.

Paramite Pie · 10-09-2015 07:48PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hang on, then if it isn't the same language, what's all this waffle about it being our beautiful heritage etc etc? You're either aiming at re-enacting medieval Ireland or you are reviving "An Caighdeán Oifigiúil" which was pretty much invented in the 1950s.

My point was that Irish is an evolving language, we're speaking the same language but not the ancient version. It's a continuum -- ie the heritage link. Learning a language doesn't disrupt modern life but adopting archaic laws would. Not a valid comparison.

English has an official Standard that was invented too. It's was just invented earlier.

Dan_Solo · 10-09-2015 08:09PM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

My point was that Irish is an evolving language, we're speaking the same language but not the ancient version. It's a continuum -- ie the heritage link. Learning a language doesn't disrupt modern life but adopting archaic laws would. Not a valid comparison.

Which immortal people who have infinite time at their disposal are you basing this "won't disrupt" theory on? Of course learning a second language is disruptive. That's not even close to an argument.
And even if it wasn't, is that an argument anyway? "It's our heritage but it's difficult and not very PC these days so nah, forget it, we'll say it's not important"?

Gael Mire · 10-09-2015 10:29PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're counting "once a month" as Irish speakers? That's laughable. It shows yet again the absolutely desperate clutching at straws the Gailgeban will go to to pretend to everybody that Irish is in rude health.
Daily usage? Irish is third. Fact.

No, its not a fact. The census does not record the frequency of usage of Polish or any language other than Irish and English.
It records total number of speakers of languages such as Polish, Russian, French etc, regardless of frequency of use.
If you want to make a valid comparison with Irish, you have to compare like with like, ie compare the total number of speakers of one language with the total number of speakers of another, not the total number of speakers of one language with only the daily speakers of another.

Iwasfrozen · 10-09-2015 10:33PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

No, its not a fact. The census does not record the frequency of usage of Polish or any language other than Irish and English.
It records total number of speakers of languages such as Polish, Russian, French etc, regardless of frequency of use.
If you want to make a valid comparison with Irish, you have to compare like with like, ie compare the total number of speakers of one language with the total number of speakers of another, not the total number of speakers of one language with only the daily speakers of another.

Ok let's compare like for like, there are more daily speakers of Polish outside the education system than daily speakers of Irish outside the education system.

Happy now?

Gael Mire · 10-09-2015 10:36PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ok let's compare like for like, there are more daily speakers of Polish outside the education system than daily speakers of Irish outside the education system.

Happy now?

Source?

Dan_Solo · 10-09-2015 10:53PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

No, its not a fact. The census does not record the frequency of usage of Polish or any language other than Irish and English.

The census tells us how many people use Irish at least once day. It also tells us how many people use a "foreign" language as their primary language. It's actually biased by absolute miles to over-represent habitual Irish speakers, and Irish still comes second in pure numbers.

Gael Mire · 10-09-2015 10:54PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It also tells us how many people use a "foreign" language as their primary language.

Care to back up that assertion?

Dan_Solo · 10-09-2015 11:09PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

Care to back up that assertion?

Peasy.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-now-the-third-most-spoken-language-in-ireland-after-english-and-polish-145200025-237438651.html

The Census found that 82,600 in Ireland speak Irish outside of school (where it is an obligatory subject). The CSO also reported that 119,526 speak Polish at home and 56,430 speak French.

So 119,526 speak Polish at home. 82,600 speak Irish at least once a day.
How many people speak Polish at least once a day? Must be mutliples of that.

Iwasfrozen · 10-09-2015 11:10PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

Source?

Number of people above 3 years old who speak Irish daily outside the education system is 8,770.

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/saveselections.asp

There are 122,585 Polish speakers in Ireland, the majority of whom would speak Polish daily though we don't record numbers.

Gael Mire · 10-09-2015 11:27PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Peasy.
So 119,526 speak Polish at home. 82,600 speak Irish at least once a day.
How many people speak Polish at least once a day? Must be mutliples of that.

So you are unable to back up your assertion, that's grand so.
The census shows the total number of Polish speakers, not the number who use Polish as their 'primary' language as you claimed.

purplecow1977 · 10-09-2015 11:27PM

Any suggestions for television programmes suitable for 11 and 12 year olds please?

Gael Mire · 10-09-2015 11:29PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Number of people above 3 years old who speak Irish daily outside the education system is 8,770.

There are 122,585 Polish speakers in Ireland, the majority of whom would speak Polish daily though we don't record numbers.

Sorry, the link you gave does not seem to work for me, can you confirm which table you took those figures from, the first is drastically wrong.

Dan_Solo · 10-09-2015 11:38PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

So you are unable to back up your assertion, that's grand so.
The census shows the total number of Polish speakers, not the number who use Polish as their 'primary' language as you claimed.

And your evidence that anybody in Ireland uses Irish more than one word per day? Now fresh from complaining that 1% isn't none, we get that speaking a language at home doesn't make it your primary language...
Go on then, how many people utter more than one word of Irish daily?

Gael Mire · 10-09-2015 11:43PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And your evidence that anybody in Ireland uses Irish more than one word per day? Now fresh from complaining that 1% isn't none, we get that speaking a language at home doesn't make it your primary language...
Go on then, how many people utter more than one word of Irish daily?

How many Polish people utter more than one word of Polish at home?

Duckworth_Luas · 10-09-2015 11:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Number of people above 3 years old who speak Irish daily outside the education system is 8,770.

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/saveselections.asp

There are 122,585 Polish speakers in Ireland, the majority of whom would speak Polish daily though we don't record numbers.

What's the Polish for facepalm?

feargale · 11-09-2015 01:28AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're counting "once a month" as Irish speakers? That's laughable. It shows yet again the absolutely desperate clutching at straws the Gailgeban will go to to pretend to everybody that Irish is in rude health.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-now-the-third-most-spoken-language-in-ireland-after-english-and-polish-145200025-237438651.html
Daily usage? Irish is third. Fact.

I don't have a problem with the fact that you are in total disagreement with GaelMire. I'm sure I myself disagree with some of his points. I do have a problem with your constant, bigoted, gratuitous insulting of a language, a culture and a community. Could we have some manners, please?

Dan_Solo · 11-09-2015 07:12AM

feargale wrote: »

I do have a problem with your constant, bigoted, gratuitous insulting of a language, a culture and a community. Could we have some manners, please?

You could perhaps quote some of those "insults"?
Or, ya know, use the report button?
Didn't think so.

Dan_Solo · 11-09-2015 07:15AM

Gael Mire wrote: »

How many Polish people utter more than one word of Polish at home?

At a guess, at least as many as speak Polish at home, which is what the census says.
Now, how about Irish? How many people speak it at home, not just one word a day?

Gael Mire · 11-09-2015 08:40AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

At a guess, at least as many as speak Polish at home, which is what the census says.

So you think everyone with the ability to speak Polish in this country does so on a daily basis?

Dan_Solo · 11-09-2015 09:11AM

Gael Mire wrote: »

So you think everyone with the ability to speak Polish in this country does so on a daily basis?

You've got me. I only think it because the CSO said so.
http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2012pressreleases/pressreleasecensus2011profile6migrationanddiversity/

Languages spoken at home

514,068 persons spoke a language other than Irish or English at home in 2011. Of these 145,919 were Irish nationals with French (41,243 persons), German (16,160) and Spanish (12,590) being the most common languages spoken in Irish homes reflecting the most popular foreign languages taught in Irish schools.

Amongst European nationals living in Ireland in 2011, Polish was the most common language with 112,811 speakers, followed by Lithuanian, Russian, Romanian and Latvian.

I can't wait for your own research disproving this. Unless you think Polish people sleep on the side of the road so "home" doesn't apply daily?
Would you mind telling us why you are, quite deliberately obviously, interchanging "can speak" and "does speak" with regards to Polish spoken in the home when the census number is "does speak"?

Dan_Solo · 11-09-2015 09:21AM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

What's the Polish for facepalm?

Yeah, he buggered that up didn't he! It isn't 122,585 Polish speakers at all!
It's 122,585 habitual Polish speakers. More than Irish and possibly far more usage too than the Irish number which could be one word a day.

Gael Mire · 11-09-2015 11:13AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You've got me. I only think it because the CSO said so.
http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2012pressreleases/pressreleasecensus2011profile6migrationanddiversity/
I can't wait for your own research disproving this. Unless you think Polish people sleep on the side of the road so "home" doesn't apply daily?
Would you mind telling us why you are, quite deliberately obviously, interchanging "can speak" and "does speak" with regards to Polish spoken in the home when the census number is "does speak"?

I am not interchanging 'can speak' for 'does speak'. I clearly recognize that the figure for Polish speakers represents those who claim they do speak the language rather than those who claim they can speak the language.

If I was claiming that the figure for Polish represents those who claim they can speak Polish, then I would compare that with the figure for those who claim they can speak Irish, which is 1.7 million.
But I recognize that this is not the case, the figure in relation to Polish does represent those who claim they do speak Polish, but that figure does not have regard to how frequently they speak it. You will notice that the above does not say that those who claim to speak Polish are not recorded as being daily speakers of Polish or people for whom Polish is their Primary language.

That is why I compared the figure for Polish with the Irish figure for people who claim they do speak Irish without regard to frequency, which is 1.3 million.

You can't compare the figure for Polish with the figure of 'speaks daily' for Irish because that is not what the figure for Polish represents. The figure for Polish is all people who claim that they do speak that language, not those who claim to speak it on a daily basis.

How many of the people recorded in the figures for Polish speak it on a daily basis? How many speak no more than a few words of Polish or only rarely speak Polish? The answer is, we don't know, that information is not recorded in the census.

Barely There · 11-09-2015 11:35AM

Gael Mire wrote: »

I am not interchanging 'can speak' for 'does speak'. I clearly recognize that the figure for Polish speakers represents those who claim they do speak the language rather than those who claim they can speak the language.

If I was claiming that the figure for Polish represents those who claim they can speak Polish, then I would compare that with the figure for those who claim they can speak Irish, which is 1.7 million.
But I recognize that this is not the case, the figure in relation to Polish does represent those who claim they do speak Polish, but that figure does not have regard to how frequently they speak it. You will notice that the above does not say that those who claim to speak Polish are not recorded as being daily speakers of Polish or people for whom Polish is their Primary language.

That is why I compared the figure for Polish with the Irish figure for people who claim they do speak Irish without regard to frequency, which is 1.3 million.

You can't compare the figure for Polish with the figure of 'speaks daily' for Irish because that is not what the figure for Polish represents. The figure for Polish is all people who claim that they do speak that language, not those who claim to speak it on a daily basis.

How many of the people recorded in the figures for Polish speak it on a daily basis? How many speak no more than a few words of Polish or only rarely speak Polish? The answer is, we don't know, that information is not recorded in the census.

Well you've dug yourself a hole - you should probably put the shovel away now.

Gael Mire · 11-09-2015 11:50AM

Barely There wrote: »

Well you've dug yourself a hole - you should probably put the shovel away now.

Sorry, but if you are going to use data from the census, use it correctly.
The claim that the census says that more people speak Polish in Ireland is wrong, clearely many more people speak Irish according to the Census than speak Polish. The claim more people speak Polish on a daily basis or as a primary language than Irish is also wrong as the census has no data on the number of people who speak Polish on a daily basis or as a primary language.

You can disbelieve the census figures if you like, but don't misrepresent them.

Barely There · 11-09-2015 11:58AM

Gael Mire wrote: »

The claim more people speak Polish on a daily basis or as a primary language than Irish is also wrong as the census has no data on the number of people who speak Polish on a daily basis or as a primary language.

'Fraid not old chap - however much you may wish it was.

Come out from your ivory tower some time and spend some time in modern day Ireland.
You'll be surprised at what you find.

Gael Mire · 11-09-2015 12:09PM

Barely There wrote: »

'Fraid not old chap - however much you may wish it was.

Come out from your ivory tower some time and spend some time in modern day Ireland.
You'll be surprised at what you find.

'Fraid so old chap - I don't need to wish anything, simple facts suffice.
The census shows certain data. The other poster was trying to misrepresent that data to support their arguments.

The census does not tell us the number of daily speakers of Polish in Ireland.
The census does not tell us the number of people for whom Polish is their Primary language.
The census does tell us the number of people who claim that they speak Polish at home, but does not give any detail on how much Polish they speak or how often.

You can come out with any empty rhetoric you want about Ivory Towers, it does not change the facts of the data available in the census.

You may believe that more people speak Polish in Ireland than speak Irish, but the data in the census does not support that. You may believe there are more daily speakers of Polish in Ireland that daily speakers of Irish, but the data in the census does not support that either. The census contradicts the first and has no data on the second. You can believe it, you can say it, but you can't say the census supports it because it simply does not.

You can disbelieve the data in the census, but please don't misrepresent it. If we can't use simple facts like the data in the census honestly, then there is no point to this discussion.

Dan_Solo · 11-09-2015 12:29PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

The census does tell us the number of people who claim that they speak Polish at home, but does not give any detail on how much Polish they speak or how often.

Yet again though, which you will no doubt choose to continue to ignore, if they speak Polish at home they are speaking it at least as much as the "at least once a day" Irish speakers, of which there are less anyway.
Are you really claiming Polish people don't be at home daily and therefore may not speak Polish at home daily? Bizarre.

Gael Mire · 11-09-2015 12:36PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yet again though, which you will no doubt choose to continue to ignore, if they speak Polish at home they are speaking it at least as much as the "at least once a day" Irish speakers, of which there are less anyway.

That is not the case, the question on other languages such as Polish does not specify any frequency. You can't make assumptions when the data is not there.
Of course there are people included in that figure who do speak Polish every day, but then there are also people who only rarely speak Polish at home who would be included in the figure.
We don't know what the frequency breakdown is, because that information is not provided. You can claim that it is this or that, but that is just your speculation, and we really can't go around passing off your opinions as hard facts supported by the census.

Barely There · 11-09-2015 01:07PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

The census does not tell us the number of daily speakers of Polish in Ireland.
The census does not tell us the number of people for whom Polish is their Primary language.
The census does tell us the number of people who claim that they speak Polish at home, but does not give any detail on how much Polish they speak or how often.

Well if you put down the awl Seamus Heaney books of poetry for a minute and took a wander through the modern Ireland that the rest of us live in, you mightn't need census figures to tell you the reality of life here.

Gael Mire · 11-09-2015 02:13PM

Barely There wrote: »

Well if you put down the awl Seamus Heaney books of poetry for a minute and took a wander through the modern Ireland that the rest of us live in, you mightn't need census figures to tell you the reality of life here.

Because you can tell the relative proportion of Polish speakers to Irish speakers across the country as a whole just by having a wander around?

That's an oddly specific skill to have.

The Irish language is failing.

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