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The Irish language is failing.

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    #2612
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Hang on, you blast your way in here just to shout from the rooftops that you have no culture other than the Irish language?
    Am I supposed to be jealous or something?

    Am I not allowed post here just because you might not agree with me? That's a pity. Also quote where I have no other culture than the Irish language and that you should be jealous.

    Hostility isn't needed towards my post, I am not directing any towards you. Can we have a proper discussion?


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    #2613
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You might explain why we should learn Irish when it isn't the indigenous language of Ireland, it having replace some unknown Mesolithic tongue? You do know the Celts are, to borrow the word, Sassenachs themselves?

    I will no bother!

    But I won't do you the inconvience of explaing my posts before you explain your bold statements.


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    #2614
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Go ahead and actually read my posts.
    The highest daily speaker there is just over in very localised parishes. Less than 0.0001% in the whole of the UK. In Ireland some parishes have upwards of 70% spekaing Irish in some communities
    Interesting how you whine about not considering the usage of Cornish in the entirety of the UK... and then insist on giving us stats for Irish usage in individual parishes!
    It's about 1% main language nationally at most, and this percentage is falling.


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    #2615
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Interesting how you whine about not considering the usage of Cornish in the entirety of the UK... and then insist on giving us stats for Irish usage in individual parishes!
    It's about 1% main language nationally at most, and this percentage is falling.

    What?
    I was simply replying to you, I'm not insisting on anything!


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    #2616
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Am I not allowed post here just because you might not agree with me? That's a pity. Also quote where I have no other culture than the Irish language and that you should be jealous.

    Hostility isn't needed towards my post, I am not directing any towards you. Can we have a proper discussion?
    Easy. Well you claimed this country would have no culture if we lost Irish.
    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Read the first 3 pages of the fourm and I'm disgusted. -"Let it die". Why? Do we want to become an uncultured country to the extent that jts just a place where people lives out their lives until death?
    Some "clarification" will no doubt ensue...


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    #2617
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    What?
    I was simply replying to you, I'm not insisting on anything!
    You insisted we use national percentages for Cornish. But then quoted local percentages for Irish.
    Why did you do this could you tell us?


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    #2618
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    I will no bother!

    But I won't do you the inconvience of explaing my posts before you explain your bold statements.
    You could just, you know, answer the question? You do know there were people here before the Celts and therefore Irish isn't this islands original language or culture at all?


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    #2619
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You insisted we use national percentages for Cornish. But then quoted local percentages for Irish.
    Why did you do this could you tell us?

    In my OP I used the parish percentages for Cornish. You knowingly came along and posted that Irish is the same, but you knew it wasn't.

    I'm finished, this is not worth arguing with you, you have accused me of how many things and changed the meaning of what I have said how many times?

    Disgraceful.


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    #2620
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So what if they re-enact Shakespeare? Did you just invent the impression that I think that's a good way to learn English? At least it's in some way connected to something useful in life (modern English) I guess.
    So there's no connection between an aspect of Irish heritage from 150 years ago with an aspect of Irish heritage from the middle ages? You sure about that? I wonder what language they spoke in Ireland in the middle ages?
    "your rambling" indeed.

    Where on earth did I make a connected between learning English and Shakesp-- never mind I'm wasting my time. :rolleyes: You kept using the word 're-enact' over and over like it was a bad thing. I showed a positive example.

    Your having a fictional arguement with people here (well really yourself) as your reinterpreting everyone's post to make ludicrous responses. Your style of discussion is really insufferable.

    We can learn modern Irish and maybe even strengthen it in areas where it's loosing ground, without promoting medieval laws. We could develop an interest in ancient literature without adopting their values and customs. Yet you act like it's some sort of hypocrisy to do so??


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    #2621
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    fear le solas wrote: »
    If your attitude is that we are forced to learn Irish, I take it your parents were forced too. Hence the negativity towards it continues... Remember what I said earlier about taking responsibility to break the cycle?

    Remember,at one stage we were forced to NOT to speak it and this is one of the reasons I believe it will never truly die, as true Irishmen will not let this happen. The survival of our heritage and culture is surely enough of an objective?

    Hence the argument put forward by myself and others that "the force feeding" is killing the Irish language. Ergo, remove the mandatory teaching of Irish for a time, and see how the language finds its natural level in society/education! Students who have a genuine graw for Irish will be attracted to it, and study it in a more positive manner with positive feedback to their peers.

    IMO this is the only initiative that has not been tried to stabilise Irish since its introduction in the school curriculum in the 1930s, while simultaneously taking the negative connotation away from it (No compulsory Irish in school) may equal this ancient language to be seen in a more positive light.


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    #2622
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    Your having a fictional arguement with people here (well really yourself) as your reinterpreting everyone's post to make ludicrous responses. Your style of discussion is really insufferable.
    That's what people say when they're losing an argument badly though isn't it. Maybe if you had a leg to stand on you wouldn't feel so frustrated?
    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    We can learn modern Irish and maybe even strengthen it in areas where it's loosing ground, without promoting medieval laws. We could develop an interest in ancient literature without adopting their values and customs. Yet you act like it's some sort of hypocrisy to do so??
    But you've just avoided the question again. Why can't we just learn about Irish instead of learning it, as we do with other parts of Irish heritage/culture?


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    #2623
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Maybe if you had a leg to stand on you wouldn't feel so frustrated?

    So our opinions don't have any legs to stand on? Patronizing arguments on your behalf aren't legs!


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    #2624
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why can't we just learn about Irish instead of learning it, as we do with other parts of Irish heritage/culture?

    How would this work?

    Teacher: Class, now we're not going to learn Amhrán na bhFiann - if I forced you to learn it you would only grow to resent it - so let's just learn "about" it instead!


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    #2625
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why would the pro-Irish side want to bring up Sorbian in Germany if it isn't relevant then I wonder... ;)

    Was it not you or one of your kin who brought this up originally? I simply replied to the point.

    And education systems are unique to each country's particular influencing factors so it's a bit of a nonsense to try to "import" another country's approach as the "correct" approach.


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    #2626
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Nobody needs Irish to live here. That's totally imaginary.

    Who said anyone exclusive needs Irish to live here?


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    #2627
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    How would this work?

    Teacher: Class, now we're not going to learn Amhrán na bhFiann - if I forced you to learn it you would only grow to resent it - so let's just learn "about" it instead!
    Are you now saying that anyone who can sing Amhran na bhFiann is a fluent Irish speaker or that it takes 14 years of mandatory Irish to learn it?
    Most of the Irish soccer team can sing it. I guess they're all fluent Irish speakers then huh?


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    #2628
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Who said anyone exclusive needs Irish to live here?
    Nobody did. Including me.
    Well done on pretending I said something again though.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    The three R's in our national languages are compulsory - it represents the government's commitment to being able living here through the medium of both our national languages - Irish or English.
    Here's you saying you need BOTH languages to "being able living here" (sic).


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    #2629
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Yet none of these argue against the point of the Irish culture. Those languages are a result of immigration. Irish is a whole different story.

    I hate to break it to you but humans aren't native to Ireland. I think I read somewhere that the Irish language originated in Britain but then a lot of stuff they say about something that long ago is pure speculation.


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    #2630
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    psinno wrote: »
    I hate to break it to you but humans aren't native to Ireland. I think I read somewhere that the Irish language originated in Britain but then a lot of stuff they say about something that long ago is pure speculation.
    And there was me thinking Irish was an Indo-European language... did Finn McCool sit down one day and make it up over some smoked salmon sandwiches or what?


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    #2631
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Are you now saying that anyone who can sing Amhran na bhFiann is a fluent Irish speaker or that it takes 14 years of mandatory Irish to learn it?

    No... are you?
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Most of the Irish soccer team can sing it. I guess they're all fluent Irish speakers then huh?

    Are they? I would be delighted if they were. How cool would that be.


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    #2632
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Nobody did. Including me.

    Good - I'm glad we've that cleared up.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Here's you saying you need BOTH languages to "being able living here" (sic).

    Where did I say "need"?

    I was talking about the government's commitment in that sentence.


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    #2633
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You might explain why we should learn Irish when it isn't the indigenous language of Ireland, it having replace some unknown Mesolithic tongue? You do know the Celts are, to borrow the word, Sassenachs themselves?

    A Sassanach literally means a Saxon. The Celts weren't Saxons. Some of our earliest natives certainly came from Britain but also what is now North Western France, Northern Spain etc...

    There's no evidence however of a mass Celtic invasion of Ireland, only evidence of their culture spreading. It's actually a mystery as to how the Celtic culture came to dominate here.

    It doesn't matter if they weren't the first people, we know nothing of these people's language to teach in the first place.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why can't we just learn about Irish instead of learning it, as we do with other parts of Irish heritage/culture?

    I attempted to answer that with the Shakespeare analogy -- would you be content with only learning the cliff notes to Shakespeare?? And never read the play at all?

    First hand experience is generally better than second hand accounts about something. An interest in Irish could be primed by learning about the language, yes but why not teach the language itself directly? You can't directly experience Irish history without a time machine but you can experience a language first hand.

    I think bilingualism should be the goal of the Irish language movement. Kids who are bilingual experience a massive boost in learning another language in study after study. It doesn't necessarily matter what that language is in theory but in practicality we have a lot more Irish teachers here already rather than importing other teachers.

    English speaking countries fail pretty badly at bilingualism being at the top of the language food chain -- it's difficult to motivate students to learn another language. A sense of culture could cultivate an interest in learning Irish but that's far less likely to happen with Spanish or Chinese.

    I should mention I'm in favour of making it optional for Leaving Cert.


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    #2634
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    No... are you?
    Well since you are equating learning Amrhan na bhFiann (a part of Irish culture) with learning how to speak Irish (a part of Irish culture) then yes, you very much are.


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    #2635
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So what if they re-enact Shakespeare? Did you just invent the impression that I think that's a good way to learn English? At least it's in some way connected to something useful in life (modern English) I guess.
    So there's no connection between an aspect of Irish heritage from 150 years ago with an aspect of Irish heritage from the middle ages? You sure about that? I wonder what language they spoke in Ireland in the middle ages?
    "your rambling" indeed.

    The Latin speaking Romans were into all kinds of savagery, brutal games etc.. Today the Italians, speaking a colloquial, bastardised Latn, now called Italian, bear responsibility for everything Roman. Yes?


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    #2636
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if they weren't the first people, we know nothing of these people's language to teach in the first place.
    So your attitude appears to be that we must learn the language of our heritage... but since we don't know what this was we'll learn another later language instead? French, English and Polish came later too. Why not learn them?
    What about what we do know of Irish Mesolithic culture? This is our heritage, should we all live in crannogs and sit on the beach all day eating shellfish?


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    #2637
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    feargale wrote: »
    The Latin speaking Romans were into all kinds of savagery, brutal ganes etc.. Today the Italians, speaking a colloquial, bastardised Latn, now called Italian, bear responsibility for everything Roman. Yes?
    What are you on about? It's the pro-Irish guys trying to make out we have some inextricable link with millennia old national history, not me. If you find your Roman to Italian thing ridiculous then it's your own side's idea.


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    #2638
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    I think bilingualism should be the goal of the Irish language movement. Kids who are bilingual experience a massive boost in learning another language in study after study.
    Then why don't they just learn language X first instead of Irish to "help" them learn language X?


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    #2639
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Do we want to become an uncultured country to the extent that jts just a place where people lives out their lives until death?

    We don't need to speak Irish to have a culture.

    We already have a culture.

    Culture is defined by the people, not by a self-appointed group of cultural commisars.


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    #2640
    Gael Mire
    Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭Gael Mire


    BoatMad wrote: »
    It would return primary schooling to the pre 1922 stage.

    What a vision for the future. Yeah, what the Irish Language really needs is to be dealt with as it was under the British Empire.

    (That was sarcasm in case you missed it ;) )


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    #2641
    Gael Mire
    Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭Gael Mire


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You might explain why we should learn Irish when it isn't the indigenous language of Ireland

    You will need to get yourself back to playschool and get yourself an education. Irish not indigenous to Ireland? Come on, did you type that with a straight face? :D

    Of all the nonsense you have come out with on this thread, that is right up there with the best.


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